Wikipedia talk:German-English translation requests/Translation guide

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[edit] Previous discussion

Some discussion regarding the translation of various government subdivisions, especially Kreis, can be found here: Wikipedia talk:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 2. Kusma (討論) 12:19, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Federal?" State

There has also been comprehensive discussion at Bundesland (Germany) and other sections of Wikipedia about the dubious practice of persistently using the adjective "federal" before state. It is true that the EU Style Guide mentioned above contains the translation "federal state", but it has been pointed out that:

  • English-speaking nations such as the United States, Australia or India use the plain term "state" for their divisions.
  • The news media and native speakers of English mostly leave off the word "federal" and simply call the Länder "states".
  • The primary meaning in English of "federal state" is a "federation", as in, "Australia is a federal state." The term is a bad translation, since it is used willy-nilly as the English for both Bundesland and Bundesstaat.

The origin of the problem lies in the fact that the word "Land" is ambiguous in both German and in English. In the German constitution, these entities are called "Länder", not "Bundesländer" and the meaning is clear from the context. The unofficial prefix "Bundes-" was added in the German media to avoid confusion with "ferne Länder" such as China or Paraguay. In English we would also structure our writing with a certain amount of care to make clear whether "land" means a country or a "German land". However when the Denglish speaker literally translates the "Bundes-" prefix as "federal", they are unthinkingly carrying over a solution to a German problem that does not exist in English. The adjective "federal" has no official basis, is redundant and clutters up the flow of text. It is true that the word "Bundesland" does officially exist in the Austrian constitution, but in that case it is translated as "province" to reflect the less sovereign nature of the Austrian entities.

So I would suggest we change the Wikipedia style guide: Bundesland translates to state.Tacitus 07:50, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stadtteil/Ortsteil?

Any suggestions on how to translate Stadtteil and Ortsteil? Moabit is described as a "district", but it's not a Stadtteil, not a Kreis. At Category:Wikipedians in Berlin-Moabit it's called a "borough", but it's not a Bezirk either. There's no mention of it in the EU document that's the source of this page; de:Ortsteil doesn't link to anything at en:, and wikt:de:Ortsteil doesn't supply an English translation. I've called it a "neighborhood" informally when speaking English, but it's much larger than a neighborhood (which would actually be a good translation of Kiez in Berlin). Angr (talk • contribs) 13:22, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I have used "borough" myself as I found nothing better yet. Agathoclea 13:29, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Muret-Sanders has Ortsteil -> part of the town (/village) and Stadtteil -> district, or (im weiteren Sinne) part of the town (/city, /Hamburg etc). I don't think Ortsteil actually tells you anything about the size, it could be big or small: Duden has "Orts|teil, der: eine gewisse Einheit darstellender Teil einer Stadt, einer Ortschaft o. Ä." The same goes for Stadtteil: "Stadt|teil, der: a) eine gewisse Einheit darstellender Teil einer Stadt: die alten, südlichen, inneren -e; am anderen Ufer des Flusses soll ein ganz neuer S. entstehen; sie wohnt jetzt in einem anderen S.; © 2000 Dudenverlag" Saint|swithin 16:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
This site also has a discussion of how to translate it in addresses. Saint|swithin 16:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
That site says the best thing is to just leave it out. Part of the problem is Stadt-/Ortsteil means different things in different cities/towns. The Stadtteile of Berlin are very different from, say, the Stadtteile of Salzgitter. The Stadtteile of Berlin, like Moabit, are to my mind similar to the neighborhoods of Manhattan, except while the ones in Manhattan don't have legally fixed boundaries, the ones in Berlin do. In Salzgitter, on the other hand, the Stadtteile were originally separate towns and villages that were gathered together administratively and declared a city, but there's no feeling of one single city there. There is still countryside in between them, and the speed limit on the Landstraßen between them is 100 km/h, as it is outside of cities, even though technically you're still inside the city of Salzgitter. Anyway, I'm inclined to call the Stadtteile of Berlin "neighborhoods" to parallel the neighborhoods of Manhattan, and if we need to talk about a Kiez we can just call it Kiez since there's an article about that explaining what it is. Angr (talk • contribs) 06:35, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Berlin#Berlin's boroughs and localities and Boroughs and localities of Berlin call the Ortsteile of Berlin "localities". I'm not sure that's 100% optimal either, but I'm willing to go with it if other people are. Angr (talk • contribs) 13:25, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I have the same problem. I just translated the page for Angelbachtal from the German Wikipedia. There this little town has two Ortsteile Eichtersheim and Michelfeld. They can be seen as independent villages, but they unified under the name of Angelbachtal. I called them boroughs, but that does not feel exactly right either.imars 21:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Simply because there seems no English equivalent I think. I am sure we can stray from the original Germany by stating that the municipality x is made up of the villages y and z. Google throws up Municipality arrangement but I would not trust that too much. Agathoclea 21:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)