Talk:Gerrymandering

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[edit] Create new article on Gerrymandering in the United States?

We should shorten this article my creating a new main article for Gerrymandering in the United States. Move the current discussion of US Gerrymandering there. The content of the current section on Computer Redistricting probably belongs in the US section.--Fagles 16:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree, however some of that content in the computer tech section might best be simply deleted. An article on Gerrymandering in the US could also talk about more specific examples, such as California and Texas. We should keep some section on Gerrymandering in the US, in the main article, however, since it's so illustrative of the phenomenon and the US is probably the most prominant case of gerrymandering in the democratic world. Scott Ritchie 07:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed confusing simplification of US courts' treatment of redistricting

In the U.S., Federal judges found redistricting legal. They wrote in their opinion that using computers made redistricting for political partisan advantage easier.

It's unclear what this was referring to. Of course "redistricting" is legal. Gerrymandering is sometimes ok and sometimes not. As discussed elsewhere in the article, US Courts strike down blatantly racial gerrymanders, but decline to strike down even unconstitutional partisan gerrymanders because they think courts are unable to tell when partisan gerrymanders violate equal protection (see Vieth v. Jubelirer)

[edit] Removed text that was oversimplifying the US supreme court case Easley vs Cromartie

However, the United States Supreme Court, in the case of Easley v. Cromartie in April 2001, ruled that gerrymandering for the purpose of increasing or reducing the influence of political party is not illegal. Justice Stephen Breyer, in his majority opinion, stated: "[evidence] does not show that racial considerations predominated in the drawing of District 12's boundaries. That is because race closely correlates with political behavior." The opinion blurred the line between race-based redistricting and politics-based redistricting, saying that in this case, it was unclear that the first was the cause, rather than the latter.

Hunt v. Cromartie (not Easley v. Cromartie) was a case in which the Supreme Court ruled that a particular district was permissible because it was a political gerrymander and not a racial one. However, I think the principle itself was established in a much earlier case. Also if you read the decision is really didn't blur the distinction because it outlined a number of criteria for determining which is which. (Basically the criteria is that if you have a choice are you excluding black Republicans or including white Democrats, and NC was able to show that the new district included large numbers of white Democrats.) DanKeshet 18:25, Feb 11, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Removed text that was oversimplifying multi-member districts

This is a very strong oversimplication of a complex situation:

It was decisive in the elimination of multi-member districts in the United States electoral system as candidates realized they could gain "safe" seats by controlling the boundaries to include supporters and exclude opponents. Simultaneously, minorities, especially African-Americans, realized that their strong constituency in cities was being politically diluted for lack of "safe" seats of their own in one inner city district.

The United States has traditionally not had multi-member districts, and there are a long and complicated set of court decisions as to when multi-member districts are permissible. DanKeshet 18:25, Feb 11, 2004 (UTC)

OK, but aren't the things described happening, e.g. in Texas? I must re-read the article to see if they're discussed. Mr. Jones 14:54, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Actually, Georgia haa a long history of multi-member districts in their state house which they used for racial gerrymandering. In addition, they revived it following the 2000 census for politicial gerrymandering purposes. (The plan was later thrown out.)

[edit] Removed assertions about automatic generation of "fair" boundaries

Many Electoral Reform packages advocate fixed or neutrally defined district borders to eliminate this manipulation. One such scheme of neutrally defined district borders is bioregional democracy which follows the borders of terrestrial ecoregions as defined by ecology, in the hope that such scientific criteria would be immune to politically motivated manipulation.

I'm about to remove this material not because it's inappropriate, but because I don't think it's true. If somebody could point me to some of these proposals, we could make this paragraph more concrete. For now, I'll move the link to bioregional democracy down to the see also. DanKeshet 18:25, Feb 11, 2004 (UTC)

In Pour la Science, April 2002, algorithmic districting procedures are discussed. David.Monniaux 20:47, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Iowa's independent redistricting board

Not exactly the same thing, but in Iowa, they use a nonpartisan redistricting board to come up with neutral districts. Is that helpful? Meelar 20:49, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with Iowa's procedures. How nonpartisan is this board? How is it chosen? David.Monniaux 20:59, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Gerymander or Gerrymandering?

The article should be under the title Gerrymander not gerrymandering, in accordance with standard naming procedure. STÓD/ÉÍRE 00:26 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

Why was this moved from Gerrymandering? The title of an article should be the noun form, not the verb. If there are no objections, I will move it back Deus Ex 17:58, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If the title should be a noun, then the current title (Gerrymander) is correct—see the last sentence of the article's first paragraph. It may be that the first paragraph should be rewritten to reflect the new title.
Above, User:Jtdirl says that the title should be "Gerrymander" for the very same reason. However, I don't see any such prescription on Wikipedia:Naming conventions. It merely says to use the singular if the title is a noun and the gerund if the title is a verb, in which case, both titles are equally acceptable.
The article suggests that the word was first coined as a noun. But in my experience, it is in much more common usage today as a verb (an observation which holds true in the article itself). So I'd say there are reasonable arguments in favor of either title. —Triskaideka 18:29, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, a Google test shows 66,300 hits for 'gerrymandering' and 24,700 for 'gerrymander'. I think most encyclopaedias would have an article under 'gerrymandering' as well, for example Britannica does. Deus Ex 12:37, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Controversial yes, Corrupt no

dictionary.com: corrupt = dishonest controversial = causing dispute

Gerrymandering is done right out in the open - honestly.

Unless the point is that all politicking in itself is dishonest, I don't think you can say gerrymandering is dishonest (corrupt).

So I reverted this last little edit from corrupt back to controversial.

It is clearly an intentional distortion of the voters wishes. My dictionary includes "made suspect or unreliable by errors or alterations". Is there really anyone who defends this except the person who is keeping his bum on the seat. This isn't retorical - at the moment I simply can't believ it. Dejvid 14:01, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, I don't see how you can call a practice that is well known and pervasive "corrupt." No unbiased observers called the recent redistricting struggle in Texas corruption, for instance. Also, before changing the lead sentence, why not create a section about the corruption aspect? Right now the article just doesn't support your assertion, IMHO. ~

My question was: Are there any people who state that jerrymandering is a valid, legitimate and legal part of democratic life. I know there are some people who justify it to give racial minorities a voice but that is illegal. Please giv examples (sources would be nice). I really can't get my head round the idea that it isn't seen as corrupt by all. Are there really people who claim that an election victory won thru a Jerrmander is truly democratic?Dejvid 21:30, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, you can't equate "truly democratic" with noncorrupt! The key here, I think, is not our opinion about whether it is bad, but rather if it is commonly considered "corruption."

{After some Web research} It looks like the 14th Amendment and the Voter Right's Act weigh in heavily here. Also, the Supreme Court acted on the Texas controversy just before the election AND the house ethics committee dinged Tom De Lay for sicking the FAA on hiding TX Democrat lawmakers.

All of this is good stuff for a reader who comes to the 'pedia wanting to know if gerrymandering is "wrong." It has a negative connotation, but redistricting for political gain is VERY widespread and really not corrupt as far as I can tell unexpertly.

Some sources: http://www.dailytexanonline.com/news/2004/10/19/TopStories/Justices.Bring.Redistricting.Back.To.Life-772675.shtml http://www.burntorangereport.com/archives/cat_redistricting.html http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/judicial/2004-10-18-scotus-tx-redistricting_x.htm

This is a democrat speaking while justifing the continuation of gerrymandering in California "It's sad to oppose good reforms because your opponents are unethical, but it's necessary to refuse unilateral disarmament." That is to say 'we know it's unethical but we are going to do it cos the other lot will.' End of story - even the guilty admit it's unethical. And that's from one of your links. It's a bit like saying that bribery is a controversial method of helping voters decide how to vote. Dejvid 00:22, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Who has ever used the word "gestate"? Why not replace it with the commoner and simpler word "gem"?

[edit] unethical is not NPOV here?

I think "Unethical" in the first paragraph is far too strong. While it is generally looked on with disfavor the same can be said of most other venues for political sausage-making. Perhaps "Controversial" instead?

"Unethical" is too subjective to go into any encyclopedia article. — Stevie is the man! Talk | Contrib 20:31, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I mean as a part of a term's definition, especially. — Stevie is the man! Talk | Contrib 03:23, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A Better Example

My addition could probably be cleaned up, but the 4th U.S. Congressional District of Illinois has got to be one of the best, most extreme examples of gerrymandering out there, and certainly has a place in the article. TresÁrboles 05:43, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Need a source for origin of the term

While merging the origin of the term section into the head, I removed this text:

The term gerrymander is named after early Massachusetts governor Elbridge Gerry. In 1812, the Massachusetts legislature redrew legislative district lines to favor the Jeffersonian Republican party candidates. Two reporters were looking at the new election map and one commented that one of the new districts looked just like a salamander. The other retorted that it looked like a Gerry-mander. The name stuck and is now used by political scientists everywhere.

I had always heard the story that the cartoon illustrated was captioned "Looks like a gerrymander", and that's from where the term arose - not the conversation of two reporters. Either way, what we need here is a source.

I also removed this sentence, as I don't think it to be true:

Gerrymandering is also possible in multi-member electoral systems, but generally the drawing of boundaries are only effective at determining which party wins the last seat in a close contest.

This is because every multiple winner district can be marginal, and that can translate into many more than a single last seat. The elections don't have to be close either.

I added this text, but it needs more research and a source:

Sometimes gerrymandering is advocated as a solution for improving representation among underrepresented groups by packing them into a single district. This can be controversial, and may lead to those groups remaining marginalized in the government since they are all confined to a single district and representatives outside that district do not need to represent them to win election. An example would be much of the redistricting conducted in the United States in the early 1990s, where "majority-minority" districts were intentionally created by packing minorities into single districts. Curiously, this "maximization policy" was supported by elements of both the Republican Party (who had little support among the minority groups) and representatives elected from these constituencies, who had "safe" seats.

It might also be a bit POV, and I know there are critics on both sides of the policy, but I don't have sources for them at the moment. Either way, it's some neat content, and something like it should be in the article.

I also added some comments in the article where I plan to add some more content soon. Scott Ritchie 4 July 2005 00:40 (UTC)

[edit] Unfairly

Unfairly is a key word in many definitions given of gerrymandering.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines gerrymander as "To divide (a geographic area) into voting districts so as to give unfair advantage to one party in elections[1]." Encarta's Dictionary: "try to get extra votes unfairly: to manipulate an electoral area, usually by altering its boundaries, in order to gain an unfair political advantage in an election[2]" Ultralingua.Net: "To divide unfairly and to one's advantage; of voting districts[3]." Cambridge Dictionary of American English: "to divide (an area) into election districts (= special areas of voters who elect someone) in a way that gives an unfair advantage to one group or political party[4]" Webster Dictionary, 1913: "To divide (a State) into districts for the choice of representatives, in an unnatural and unfair way, with a view to give a political party an advantage over its opponent [5]." Online Plain Text English Dictionary: "To divide (a State) into districts for the choice of representatives, in an unnatural and unfair way, with a view to give a political party an advantage over its opponent.[6]" 1911 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica: "to arrange election districts so as to give an unfair advantage to the party in power by means of a redistribution act, and so to manipulate constituencies generally, or arrange any political measure, with a view to an unfair party advantage.[7]"

If it was done "fairly" than there wouldn't be much of an argument. --Nyr14 12:16, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Malapportionment and Gerrymandering

The article seems to use examples of malapportionment interchangably with gerrymandering in many instances, such as the graphic and the United States section. While malapportionment is certainly worth a mention, explanation, and link, this article should probably note how gerrymandering is used even in cases where district sizes are equal in population. I think I'll move some content around when I get to it. Scott Ritchie 00:01, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] When did Federal judges find redistricting legal?

the first line of the section titled Gerrymandering Computer Technology reads: "In the U.S., Federal judges found redistricting legal". obviously a year date was accidentally left out. i would correct it, but i can't figure out what year that that decision was made... help!  :-)

--Nic.stage 22:19, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that whole section is in need of a rewrite. It's a bit US-centric and not particularly NPOV either. Scott Ritchie 01:37, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Controversial?

I think the opening of this article needs changing. I don't see much controversy about gerrymandering; not many people argue that their side should redistrict to their advantage (though I suppose you might find something similar in Coulter or the like if you looked hard enough).

Redistricting can be controversial, of course, but the controversy would be over whether a particular redistricting constitutes gerrymandering.

I would suggest simply removing the word 'controversial' from the opening sentence, unless anyone can provide an alternative viewpoint that gerrymandering (as opposed to redistricting) is proper conduct.

Well, the legislatures that implement gerrymandering obviously think it's a good idea, for one. Just because few people outright advocate it explicitly doesn't mean it isn't noncontroversial ;) Scott Ritchie 01:07, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I would suggest that these legislatures probably don't say that the reason for their redistrictings are to favour the incumbent (or whoever). I don't want to get in a fight about this (after all, I am being very pedantic here), but I would say that redistricting can be controversial, and calling a redistricting gerrymandering would almost always be controversial, but the concept of gerrymandering itself isn't. But like I say, I don't want to fight about this. 203.59.123.73 04:01, 21 October 2005 (UTC)Will Spiller
I would strongly disagree with gerrymandering not being noted as being controversial, as it certainly is. I think it naive to presume that most people would not approve of gerrymanderign by their own political party if they thought it to their own advantage, and fights are constantly fought, at least in the United States, over how to reverse or reduce gerrymandering while many other argue in support of it, giving the ludicrous argument that having fewer competitive districts makes elections cheaper and as such is a good thing. It's very much controversial. - Cuivienen 03:16, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
On a devil's advocate there is a strong case for gerrymandering, though arguably it doesn't apply much in the US. By creating a set of ultra safe seats it means that some politicians and parties are virtually guarenteed to remain in the relevant assembly even in a disastrous year for the party overall, thus allowing them a platform from which to rebuild, as well as ensuring the assembly contains some opposition to the administration of the day. It can also mean that politicians who aren't the best campaigners in elections but who are good as ministers can get into parliament and thus prevent it from being purely full of parish pump politicians. A similar argument was made for the retention of rotten boroughs in the UK. But personally I don't think this justifies it, certainly not the absurd extent of US districts shaped like scorpions and earmuffs. Timrollpickering 11:35, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Malapportioned Senate

In fixed districts, its claimed the US senate is the most malapportioned legislative body in the world. This seems like a difficult claim to make (and one unlikely to be true). Thoughts?? WilyD 14:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Can you really use the term "malapportionment" for a body based on equal representation for states? Timrollpickering 21:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Absolutely. The term malapportionment means "unequal representative to population ratio". The United States Senate certainly qualifies, by definition - a Californian has 1/66 the senatorial voting power as a resident of Wyoming. The fact that it is intentionally made that way in the constitution doesn't really change that it is. As for where the claim comes from, I believe the correct formulation is in the Western world, as there are a host of semi-democracies that have pretty grossly malapportioned legislatures. I don't have a specific source, however, but I did learn that in class and if you can find a counterexample I'd be pleased to see it.Scott Ritchie 04:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The definition of malapportionment according to M-W.com is "characterized by an inequitable or unsuitable apportioning of representatives to a legislative body". The Senate is not the most malapportioned, since each State recieves 2. Besides, if we are saying the most malapportioned body in the WORLD, you'd have to say it is the UN General Assembly, with China reciving as many votes as San Marino.
It's been a while on this thread, but not all upper houses are based on the concept of direct representation for the population - that is usually seen as the job of a lower house. Consequently the term "malapportionment" should be applied with caution when something other than the population is being represented. Some countries with strong federal systems use the upper house to explicitly represent the states (the German Bundesrat is arguably the one that takes this to the clearest conclusion) - and an upper house based on "each state gets the same number of representatives", like the US or Australian Senates, has a very equal ratio of representation for what is actually being represented (Australian territories aside). Timrollpickering 21:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Malapportionment and Representation by Area

Hi. Dropped in from writing up some stuff on rep-by-pop and rep-by-area from Representation (politics). I've been doing old historical election polls for Wiki's Canadian electoral project lately and, while I knew about them previously, have been constantly amazed by the incredibly low populations of some frontier-era and even post-war ridings. Thing is these really aren't malapportionment, except in a purist rep-by-pop sense, because the realities of the areas represented preclude any larger riding, so the population that's there gets its own say - largely because they're too far away from any more dominant electoral centre that would ever listen to their concerns. So ridings like Atlin, Skeena, Lillooet, Similkameen and Peace River had only a few hundred voters, vs the thousands in urban ridings in the same era (typically in the tens of thousands, larger ridings up to 20,000 and a few much larger, but with multiple members).

So it's a fine line. None of those seats were "safe seats" and the ridings were the way they were for historical and geographic reasons. But in other areas in BC there's been gerrymandering aplenty, most famously of a sliver of trés-riche urban swank - the Quilchena area - was added to Little Mountain, a mostly-middle class riding to secure a safe seat for a Socred cabinet minister (Gracie's Finger it was called, after Grace McCarthy). In the Kootenays and the Mid-Island the jiggering of electoral districts over the course of the last century is dizzying.

Anyway, my two bits. And just curious about how to define legitimate rep-by-area as opposed to malapportionment; I see someone holds that view on the US Senate; the same is true, but for different structural causes, in Canada. But again, the mass of area in Canada requires a compromise with non-population based electoral districts; the idea of Senate reform was to have ten senators each for all ten provinces; or a modulated formula with ten each for BC, AB, MB and SK combined, ON, QC, NB/NS/PEI/Nfld (or maybe twenty for them?), and ten for the territories Thing is Quebec would never go for it because they've got a 25% lockdown on Senate and Commons representation, no matter what happens to their population; and a third of the Supreme Court (and typically half the Cabinet, even under Tory governments...well, Mulroney's anyway). The rude compromise proposed by the Premiers, who don't want to have separate electoral bases, was for the Senator's jobs to be described as representing the views of the provincial governments, or to even just be appointed by the provincial governments, in other words the Premiers themeslves. And you'll notice how between the the Alliance-Tory merger and Tory "rebirth" the whole topic of senatorial reform has completely disappeared. No major political party wants changes to the existing political order. Which is also why BC-STV has been shelved, pending ways to dilute it and confuse the voters with other choices concocted by the profesional politicians....Skookum1 07:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, anyway, this is an article about gerrymandering, not about malapportionment. There very well may be justifiable reasons for malapportionment (perhaps such as you describe in Canada), and the NPOV policy tells us we should mention them on the malapportionment page. We mention malapportionment here alongside gerrymandering since the two frequently go together, particularly historically. It's certainly easier to gerrymander when you're allowed to make districts unequal in size as well, but they don't have to go together. Scott Ritchie 08:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gerrymandering computer technology is inadequate

I recommend eliminating, renaming, or rewriting the section titled "Gerrymandering computer technology." As is, that section isn't really about computer technology and the section title is misleading. The only mentions of computer technology are "...accused of favoring Republicans by using computers to gerrymander..." and "...analysts have argued that sophisticated gerrymandering computer technology plus the fundraising advantages..." Niether of these statements are actually ABOUT computer technology or how computer technology is used to gerrymander. --134.161.206.248 00:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

You are, of course, correct. A lot of that section is POV stuff anyway, and should probably be trashed. I've been meaning to clear that up for some time (placing it on my todo list). We should have a section on computer technology, and now that you've reminded me perhaps I'll actually write a real one tomorrow. Thanks. Scott Ritchie 07:51, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed text

Another possible method of avoiding further gerrymandering is to simply avoid redistricting altogether by continuing to use existing political boundaries such as state, county, or provincial lines. Doing this makes further increasing electoral advantage by changing boundaries becomes impossible, however any existing advantage may become deeply ingrained. The United States Senate, for instance, has far more competitive elections than the House of Representatives due to the use of existing State borders rather than gerrymandered districts, however the Senate is also the most malapportioned legislative body in the developed world.

Consequently, many electoral reform packages advocate fixed or neutrally defined district borders to eliminate this manipulation. One such scheme of neutrally defined district borders is bioregional democracy which follows the borders of terrestrial ecoregions as defined by ecology. Presumably, scientific criteria would be immune to politically motivated manipulation, although of course this is debatable as scientists are people with political interests too.

The problem with geographically static districting systems (which is not what most reform packages suggest) is that they do not take in to account changes in population, meaning that individual electors can grow to have vastly different degrees of influence on the legislative process. This is particularly a problem during times of large population movements, and was especially prominent in the United Kingdom during the industrial revolution. See also Reform Act and rotten borough.

For this reason, scientists have proposed algorithmic ways of dividing constituencies. Desirable criteria for the outcomes are:

  • the system should be simple enough to be understood by most of the general population;
  • the constituencies must be connected (i.e., each in a single piece);
  • the constituencies should not be too elongated;
  • the constituencies should have the same population or at least almost the same.
While reworking the fixed district section, I removed the above text. Some of it I'll probably rework into a new section about creating objective rules for districts, however in the meantime I'm putting it here. Scott Ritchie 09:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sections marked as stubs

Actually, considering this articles length it would be better if they each stayed about the same size, if there's more material, for them they should get their own articles and a link to it. Jon 19:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Singapore section

I think the Singapore section at the end is very POV and needs to be reworded, cited, or removed. Stifle (talk) 12:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the Singapore section needs to be cited, but I would be opposed to removing it and I do immediately see the point of rewording it. The words "accused", "suspected" and "alleged" suffice to show that these are opinions held by those who criticise the Singapore system, not objective facts. It is relevant to mention the fact that the system in the city state is controversial. (R3NL 22:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC))

Yes, the singapore section should be reworded, but not removed. It should also expanded to include more infomation

[edit] 2001 Georgia Redistricting

How can ANY article on gerrymandering NOT include the Georgia redistricting of 2001. If no one else puts it up, I will do so myself! Ludahai 04:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Would it be too POV to establish a separate "list of gerrymandered US districts"? Or perhaps separate articles, "Gerrymandering in [state name]"? I can think of several congressional districts in Massachusetts -- Mass. 2nd (the Northampton "camel's head"), Mass. 3rd (the Fall River panhandle), Mass. 4th (a similar slender arm reaching to Brookline), Mass. 9th (the shoreline stretch, completely surrounded by Mass. 8th in Boston), perhaps even Mass. 7 (the stretch to Framingham). By my count, that's half the state's congressional districts. That's not even getting into the state Senate and state House districts. Wiki Wistah 03:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that state senates & house seats have to be ignored because otherwise we're dealing with thousands of cases. On the congressional districts, I would limit this article to the most creative district boundaries. A list of all of the gerrymandered US congressional districts would need it's own article. In any case, they'll need a source, such as Fairvote.org. Jon 14:47, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arizona Congressional District 2

We may want to consider removing this is an example of gerrymandering. While it seems obvious that it appears to be I believe this one is court ordered. The Navajo and Hopi tribes have had a long legal feud over their tribal boundries. It was considered to be a conflict of interest therefore to have them represented by the same Congressman. SkyWayMan 05:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Whether court ordered or not, it is an example of "arguably good" gerrymandering in that it collects communities of common interest into districts, as is the CA 23 coastal strip. Good or bad, it is still gerrymandering, isn't it? - Leonard G. 18:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
That's correct, in addition to partisian gerrymanders, there are bipartisian gerrymanders to protect all incumbents [such as CA's]. It is also conceivable that a commission whose members are prohibited from running in the seats drawn could draw up lines specificly to endanger as many incumbents as possible. (e.g. making top priority having as many districts as close as possible to 50-50 partisian mix to the exclusion of more traditional criteria such as county lines.) Jon 14:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The gerrymander

Exactly which district was it that led to the name? Massachusett's third? VolatileChemical 15:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

That's corect. Jon 14:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CA-11

California 11 looks like more of an example of a failed gerrymander than a (normal) gerrymander, considering it was intended as a Republican district but is now represented by a Democrat. I guess if we point that one out we should probably have an example in the other direction such as TN D-4 during the 1990s (snaking one county wide thru all three grand divisions of the state, containing portions of most TV markets in the state while avoding the core metro areas), which was intended for a Democrat but ended up in under the control of the Republicans in 1994. Jon 14:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lede is too long

The lede is much too long. Perhaps the discussion of etymology and origin of the term can go below. The more important discussion is what it means in the electoral process.--Parkwells (talk) 15:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Working on this to move sections into body below, such as etymology. Will aim for 3-4 paragraph lede.

[edit] National examples

The narrative for Chile is very confusing. I recommend someone who knows what it is about try breaking up the issues into smaller pieces, with more context. --Parkwells (talk) 16:37, 30 April 2008 (UTC)