Talk:Germany

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Contents

[edit] West-central Europe

Is there such a thing as West-central Europe (as mentioned in the introduction)?!? Shouldn't it be just Central Europe ?--Zarbi1 (talk) 22:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree 'Central Europe' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.212.87 (talk) 18:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree, too. 'West-central Europe' is too specific. That would probably summarize Germany, Switzerland, Lichtenstein, Austria, while 'East-central Europe' might be considered as Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary. Forgive me, if I omitted to name one country (perhaps yours). What I am trying to say is, these things are never properly defined on a 100% consent. In any case, the use of regional expressions even more specific than 'Central Europe'--even though existing--are so far less common than the term 'Central Europe' that their us is considered awkward by many people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomeasy (talk • contribs) 10:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Minor mistake in Military section

Here: "(roughly translated as civilian service) , or a longer"... The space before the comma is wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.220.129.203 (talk) 01:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 3. States

The sentence "The Germany is divided into six states" is incorrect because the six states build the Federal Republic! That is a question of legal quality! The German states could exist without the Federal republic, but the Federal Republic couldn't exist without the states!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.127.54 (talk) 20:25, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

It is also wrong because Germany has 16 states forming the Bundesrepublik (federal republic) Xuthor (talk) 00:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem now is that "Germany is build up completely by the sixteen German states" is not an English language sentence, even though it uses English words. If you want to nit-pick of the wording, fine, but we need to use something comprehensible to English speakers. You won't allow the previous sentences, even though they are geographically true, so I have no clue what you will accept. - BillCJ (talk) 00:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I would express it in that way: the Federal Republic of Germany is divided into sixteen German states("Länder") Xuthor (talk) 01:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

So would I, but that is what the original sentence said, before is what changed (twice). The IP mistakenly wrote "six" instead of "sixteen" in his post above. - BillCJ (talk) 01:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] JEWISH POPULATION

Does any one know what the current jewish population is in Germany? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.17.219.250 (talk) 00:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

See also Jewish population. Figure for Jewish population may be unreliable. Figures for 2002 are given here: Sergio DellaPergola. World Jewish Population (2002). American Jewish Year Book. The Jewish Agency for Israel. Retrieved on 2007-05-03. --Boson (talk) 07:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The question is a little hard to answer, but according to the Central Council of Jews in Germany, there are "105,000 individual members are organized in 23 regional associations under the umbrella of the Central Council of Jews", so that is the minimum number. Lars T. (talk) 17:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
And at least 170.000 immigrants from former Soviet union since 1990 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.3.195 (talk) 22:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
It is unclear to me whether this figure of 170,000 includes non-Jewish household members. According to the source I cited above, there were about 32,000 Jews in Germany in 1987, and by 2002 there were an additional 150.000 immigrants from the FSU, but this figure included non-Jewish household members, so that the estimate was 103,000 "core Jews" in 2002. --Boson (talk) 23:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Millions of Germans have Jewish ancestry. Genetic tests showed that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.94.186.41 (talk) 00:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Enviroment "Oh we are not to blame" clause?

Currently the enviroment section reads to blame other countries for Germany's high carbon dioxide emissions, and I take aim at the "we are not responsible" clause that this basically is.

The US, at one time, was a massive exporter as well, and today most of our carbon emissions are from cars, which people use to go shopping and to work, to buy goods from foreign countries. Can it be said then that we are not responsible for these emissions, as we would not go shopping for them if foreign countries did not export?

Or what about the "work" part? Currently US Financial institutions are highly involved in financing many important projects across the globe: are the emissions created by people moving to and from work at these institutions the fault of the other countries?

No. The US is responsible for the carbon emissions it makes, regardless of what reason its making them. Similarly, Germany is accountable for the fact it has such high emissions.

For now, I am deleting that little clause out of the "enviroment" section. And until we have come to a reasonable agreement that it should be there (beyond the base reasoning currently involved), I think I'll delete any such attempts to put it back.Scryer_360 (talk) 21:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

So your argument is that the US would produce less CO2 if they produced more CO2. Lars T. (talk) 00:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

No, where in my statements do I say that? I mean the US wouldn't produce as many carbon emissions if it was not part of the global economy, but, similar to Germany, it is still responsible for the emissions it makes regardless of that fact. The same is said for Germany: it is responsible for its emissions, even if its goods are mainly consumed in other countries.

Well, I don't find it reasonable to claim that if the USA were not part of the global economy, they would reduce their consumption so much that it would even out their reduced CO2 production resulting from their trade deficit. But then I am no Bushman. Lars T. (talk) 17:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

It also stands to reason that, of all things, the greatest strides to reduce emissions must be made at the source of the greatest emissions. Hence, the biggest reductions need to come in places like Germany, like the USA, but also like China and Japan. The environment doesn't know what "per capita" means. Signed by Scryer_360, who for some reason is being failed by the log in link... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.91.137.171 (talk) 04:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


Maybe the point is the contemporary need for many Germans to blame the USA for everything bad in the world. A curious need considering that German Democracy and the critical rebuilding of Germany post WW II are thanks to the Americans. Germany is itself a great economic power because of it's own qualities as a modern industrial nation and it's own great business culture-- but German Democracy and the huge post-war economic lift-up make many German complaints about the USA look ridiculous if not even childish. Perhaps a section in the article on post Word War II German arrogance should be included, certainly the USA has it's arrogance, but so does Germany and so do many Germans.

24.8.106.182 (talk) 13:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm from Germany and I'm wondering a little bit. I don't know the article in the earlier composition and what is different now. But in Germany we're not discussing whether we are responsible for our CO2 output and other pollution, we know we are. There are many problems in reducing pollution as an industrial state and there are many laws (e.g. the EU set since many years pollution standards for cars known as "Euro-Norm" 1/2/3... which is linked with higher taxes for more polluting cars) that reduces pollution more and more, but a growing economy leads in the other direction. But nobody here would say that other states are responible for our pollution. We know our responsibility and try to be a "good" pollution-reducer. But whatever, politics is mostly more slowly than the conviction of the people that economic growth and a healthy enviroment are no contrast. To 24.8.106.182: I think this is no place to discuss this. And no sentence should be wrote in wikipedia, because the "object" of description is so arrogant. But let me tell this: Both Countries (like all countries) have a historical background and all of us would be well advised to know this background of each other and to tolerate what it created and try to understand the other ones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.142.189.221 (talk) 21:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

No offense to the USA, but i think you should not bring that on table, cause if you can drive with your bicycle, you rather take the car. And your cars, sorry, but when they need around 10- 20 Litres/100kmh then you might think about that. And as well look up what we do for the enviroment, renewable energie and so on. And now, the USA starts slowly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.102.123.211 (talk) 21:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The political role of Bonn today

It should be mentioned, that Bonn still is chief seat of six ministries and also that the majority of Germany's ministerial employees are working in Bonn according to de:Berlin/Bonn-Gesetz (Berlin/Bonn law). Therefore, although beeing capital of Germany, Berlin shares the country's political power with Bonn. What about a footnote about these circumstances within the table? 85.179.35.157 (talk) 20:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I strongly agree. I have just performed a string search for "bonn" in the article and found that the city is not mentioned at all. I think a section, e.g. as you propose it, should be really be added. So, if you have the time, just go ahead. Tomeasy (talk) 10:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I think the section Division and reunification (1945–1990) should also mention that Bonn was the provisional capital. I think the page is semi-protected. --Boson (talk) 17:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Just a small note, it says that the law deciding the political fate of Bonn was passed in 2004, yet states it was implimented in 1999, which is right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.237.47.14 (talk) 10:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

According to the german Wikipedia, that act was passed in 1994, so 2004 is incorrect. Actually, it says it was passed on 26 April in 1994, not 10 March.
217.230.15.160 (talk) 01:11, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely right and I think not controversial. You can get this information also from the appended source. So, I simply fixed it. Tomeasytalk 10:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
As regards the exact date, as I understand it:
  • the law was passed 10 March
  • the official date of the law is 26 April , because that was the date it was signed by the President;
  • it was published in the Bundesgesetzblatt 6 May (No. 27, page 918) ;(http://archiv.jura.uni-saarland.de/BGBl/199427_1.HTML)
  • it came into force one day after publication, i.e. 7 May.
--Boson (talk) 11:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kosowo Deutschland 2008

http://cgi-host.uni-marburg.de/~hlgl/atlas/id.cgi?ex=inhalt&lines=0&page=2&current=22&id=23 Helsinki 193.208.90.130 (talk) 11:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Weblinks

[edit] The inclusion of Kosovo

Germany has accepted Kosovo independence. The map showing where Germany is should be changed, containing an independent Kosovo. Bardhylius (talk) 12:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Without taking sides for one side or the other, I'd just want to add that this really is a non-problem. There are many articles where a decision over Kosovo is of some importance, but definitely not in this article nor in articles of the same kind (France, Spain, Monaco etc.) I can guarantee you that not one person comes to the article on Germany with the intention of finding Kosovo on the map. I can understand those who feel it is important to have it included and those who object to its inclusion, but it's really irrelevant to this article and many similar articles where there's currently a big argument over Kosovo. These disputes should be settled at the discussion over Kosovo, not exported to every second Wikipedia articles as they are at the moment. JdeJ (talk) 14:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone come to see France on this article? Yet it is still there. So is Montenegro, smaller than Kosovo. Let's look up to what's official, Kosovo is. Bardhylius (talk) 14:48, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with JdeJ. It's really no issue here. Just have a look how people are fighting about this subject right now on the more relevant articles. Those are the sites, where you should contribute and look for consensus. Afterwards the remaining articles can be updated to ensure consistency within wikipedia. Don't get me wrong, if you have the map at hand, from my POV you may use it here. However, there might be others just as insistent as you but with an opposite stance, who might change it back. And then you come again, and so forth. For the sake of your energy, I think it is better you contribute to the talk pages of Serbia and Kosovo. Tomeasy (talk) 15:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I understand what you mean Tomeasy. But I am fully convinced that the decisions that I have made are very well backed-up with facts. I see these maps as representatives of country locations and their views on the world around them. Bardhylius (talk) 17:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Minor grammatical mistake

In the Third Reich section, a picture is captioned as "Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini during a official visit to occupied Yugoslavia", when it should be captioned as "Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini during an official visit to occupied Yugoslavia". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fumbingehmer (talk • contribs) 23:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Be bold! Just correct these things... Tomeasy (talk) 08:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
How is he going to do that if the article is locked? Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 08:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Look under the Weimar Republic section

"There were COMMUNISTS AND FASCISTS AND SOCIALISTS THAT PRETTY MUCH ruined the country." I'm not going to deny that, but could a registered user please take care of this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.77.47 (talk) 03:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] OECD Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA)

According to the articleIn the PISA Study, a test of thirty-one countries, in 2000 Germany ranked twenty-first in reading and twentieth in both mathematics and the natural sciences, prompting calls for reform.. However the reference given (Experts: Germany Needs to Step up School Reforms) does not give any information about the number of countries participating. Also it does not give any information about Germany ranking 21st.

According to this article 43 countries participated in PISA in 2000.

Would someone please take a look at this?

Thanks! Patrick —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.134.252.63 (talk) 11:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Introduction

Currently User: Matthead is extending the introduction again and again. I find it too long now. It has this overboarding history part, which should rather go to the respective section. I am very fine with the added content. It is both interesting and relevant, but does it really need to go in the introduction, while the whole Saar issue is not even mentioned in the history section.Tomeasy (talk) 20:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Not your taste, but Wikipedia:Lead section determines the intro, and e.g. states "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." The history, beginning with the Romans, is important as it both defines the English name derived from Germania, the Western border along the Rhine, and the distinction from Roman language area. The article (and especially the bogus "West Germany") is not in a good shape as to many under-informed people edit it. Your revert eg. was no improvement and was quickly reverted. -- Matthead  Discuß   22:19, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Please, don't get me wrong. I am not criticizing your edits. Actually, I like the contents very much, but the introduction should be concise. This is also a guideline. There is space for the details in the body of the articles. The truth is usually somewhere in between and of course a matter of taste. So, let's see if others are willing to give their opinion on whether all this is in deed needed to have a complete lead, as you think, or whether it might be improved by moving some things down. Of course we can leave your edits as long as my opinion remains sole.
The other small thing is about the 5 states of the GDR, which you quickly re-reverted. I am sure you know that the GDR was not organized as this part of Germany is today. These 5 states were only formed very shortly before re-unification (and might also have existed long before this date). However, I find your formulation puts the reader on the wrong track that those were the 5 states during the existence of the GDR. I hope you understand what I mean. Tomeasy (talk) 22:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
The GDR was organised in Ländern between 1949 and 1953 as it finally was by the "Verfassungsgesetz zur Bildung von Ländern in der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik - Ländereinführungsgesetz -" (constitutional law to form Länder in the German Democratic Republik - Ländereinführungsgesetz -"). This five Länder acceded to the Bundesrepublik while East Berlin was merged with West Berlin into Berlin. That's why Germany is build up by 16 German States not by 12. Geo-Loge (talk) 22:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
See also:
Geo-Loge (talk) 23:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I emphasised that the five states in the GDR were founded in preparation of the German reunification (The Bundesrepublik is not willing to found its member states by an own act, that is why this information is important). It is wrong to write, that the GDR joined the German Federation and it is - as you said - uncomely to have too much details in the introduction. Geo-Loge (talk) 23:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the details. That's what I meant: the five states in the GDR were founded in preparation of the German reunification, while during the core phase of its existence it was not organized in states. Of course, you have put this on much more solid grounds. I like the current formulation very much.
Having already been forced to cede territory after World War I what do you think about this piece? Isn't it too emotional. In my opinion definitely not encyclopedic. How about After WWI Germany ceded territory according to the Treaty of Versailles.
Let's see what Matthead thinks about the detailed lead now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomeasy (talk • contribs) 08:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Often, mistakes are made which I am not willing to tolerate, as Wikipedia would proliferate them even more:

  • that the GDR joined the FRG (the GDR dissolved itself, its states joined the FRG)
  • that the two states "unified" (it was not a symmetric merger!)
  • that there were two German states after 1949 (three, the Saarland is often neglected)
  • that "West Germany" ceased to exist, and was replaced by Germany. That horribly stupid article needs to be fixed, and renamed to "history of the Federal Republic of Germany (1949-1990). It caused collateral damage, like people claiming that there was a "West Germany national football team" which was different from the Germany national football team - and that the two could have played each other!

-- Matthead  Discuß   03:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, somebody User: Lear 21 was very bold, much bolder than I! Apparently, he also found the introduction too long. I hope we'll all stay calm and civilized :-) Tomeasy (talk) 13:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

If you guys want to shorten the intro, I suggest to delete the long list of neighboring countries (more than most others, I guess). It's like starting an article about a football player by first mentioning all his neighbors, school mates, team mates, coaches etc. before discussing the person itself. On the other hand, the result of World War I is significant, setting the stage for WWII (as e.g. Foch predicted). Some even call the two WWs "the second 30 years war, against Germany", or similar. -- Matthead  Discuß   01:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh my God. I hope your not going to do that here.Tomeasy (talk) 08:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The list of neighbors is a standard part among country articles. Lear 21 (talk) 12:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Czech territory in Germany

The Czech Republic article currently states: "The Czech Republic also possesses a 30,000-square-metre (7.4-acre) exclave in the middle of the Hamburg Docks, which was awarded to Czechoslovakia by Article 363 of the Treaty of Versailles to allow the landlocked country a place where goods transported downriver could be transferred to seagoing ships. The territory reverts to Germany in 2018."

Is the above true? While it may have been in the Versaille Treaty, is this still legally the position? Can any one provide a source for this? I have found one source:[1], but it is a magazine article and I would not consider it reliable. The Czech-German territory is not on the list of exclaves so if it can be properly shown that it is true, it should presumably be added to the list. The topic is also being discussed at Talk:Czech Republic. Could any one help in verifying the claim? Redking7 (talk) 17:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The Moldauhafen (litarally: the Vltava harbour) in Hamburg is leased to the Czech Republic until 2028 (99 years from 1929 until 2028 declared by the Treaty of Versailles in 1919). But I think the territory's state is more comparable with the state of embassies and consulates and not an exclave? Geo-Loge (talk) 18:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you Moldauhafen. I've let the Czech editors know about this. Redking7 (talk) 19:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry, but I have not found any information about the legal position of the area according to law of nations. I just suppose that the area is under german jurisdiction. Geo-Loge (talk) 22:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
The "Moldauhafen" is in the Free port (Freihafen) in Hamburg. The Versaille treaty says: The "Moldauhafen" is leased for 99 years to the former Czechoslovakia. The "Moldauhafen" is under the jurisdiction of Germany. "Freihafen" means that it is a foreign country related to tariffs (as long as goods are in the "Freihafen" there are no german taxes or tariffs duty), but part of Germany not of the Czech republic. The "Moldauhafen" gave the possibility to the Czech republic to transport goods through Hamburg or store it there without paying taxes or tariffs. After the entry of the Czech republic to the EU these advantages don't matter anymore, because there are no tariffs anymore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.142.189.221 (talk) 22:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Names of country articles (Ireland)

This post does not directly concern German topics but might benefit from the fresh perspectives of editors of German articles getting involved.

I have proposed that the articles “foreign relations of the Republic of Ireland; civil service of the Republic of Ireland and public service of the Republic of Ireland" be renamed in each case by deleting the words “the Republic of”.

The main article concerning the Irish state is called Republic of Ireland because the island of Ireland already occupies the Ireland page. I do not propose to move this. However, the correct name of the Irish state is simply "Ireland". "Republic of Ireland" is not correct. This is discussed at length at an article I contributed to, Names of the Irish state.

If you are sufficiently interested, you may wish to read the Names of the Irish state article and then contribute your opinions, whatever they may be here. Irish contributors are always a small minority on WP and even the most rational edits often get 'voted down' for essentially political reasons. I think I've put forward pretty convincing reasons for the three moves (and only three moves - try not to be distracted by the smokescreens of those opposed to the moves).

I appreciate few German people are even likely to read this post so we will all still bring our English-speaking perspectives to the debate. However, I am desperate for the level of debate concerning this matter to improve (much of the discussion has consisted of stale rantings over Irish history and politics). Many thanks if you decide to get involved. Redking7 (talk) 19:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Order of Precedence

Order of Precedence

It is incoorrect that the chancellor is third in the order of precedensce. The chancellor is fourth in the order. True is that the Federal President is first, second is the President of Bundestag, but here lies the mistake: third in the order is the President of the Bundesrat, who is elected for a half year period and is always a Ministerpräsident (Minister-President) of a Bundesland (state). The President of the Bundesrat is also the debuty to the Federal President if abscent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.78.232.53 (talk) 2008-03-29

According to the German Home Office (See http://www.bund.de/nn_168112/Microsites/Protokoll/Rang-und-:Titulierung/Protokollarische-Rangfragen/Protokollarische-Rangfragen-knoten.html http://www.bund.de/nn_168112/Microsites/Protokoll/Rang-und-Titulierung/Protokollarische-Rangfragen/Protokollarische-Rangfragen-knoten.html), precedence is:
  1. Federal President
  2. President of the Bundestag
  3. Chancellor
  4. President of the Bundesrat
  5. President of the Federal Constitutional Court
The article would appear to be correct.--Boson (talk) 23:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the link does not work. I am really eager to see a reference for the stated ranking. So please fix if possible. Tomeasy (talk) 08:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I found http://www.bund.de/nn_168112/Microsites/Protokoll/Rang-und-Titulierung/Protokollarische-Rangfragen/Protokollarische-Rangfragen-knoten.html and hope it helps. Greetings, --Joachim Weckermann (talk) 09:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Many thanks. Tomeasy (talk) 09:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Languages

There are 3 protected minority languages in Germany: Sorbian in Lusatia, Danish in the north and North Frisian in the north west of Schleswig-Holstein. Would that be worth mentioning? VEB Text (talk) 18:23, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

They are all mentioned in the info box (footnote of language entry). Geo-Loge (talk) 21:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Flag Error

Only a minor comment, but I believe that the German flag was (relatively) recently updated to include an eagle emblem in the centre? Thus, the flag on the page should probably be updated. Gturkey (talk) 18:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Your believe's wrong. The flag that you mention is frequently seen, and that not only recently but since I can remember. However, the official national flag is as simple as is depicted in the article and described in Artikel 22 Grundgesetz. This part part of the constitution has not been changed recently as you say. Tomeasy (talk) 19:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Rather than the national flag, you might have seen the German state flag , which can be used legally only by federal authorities etc. There is also a similar flag with a slightly different eagle emblem, the use of which is probably illegal.--Boson (talk) 22:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

All true. Just to show what we have been talking about. The left flag is the correct national flag and, most important to satisfy Gturkey's concerns, there is no motion whatsoever to change the national flag away from this simple form. The second flag is the Bundesdienstflagge, the German state flag that Boson has mentioned. It is official, but legally only used by governmental institutions. Being from Germany, I have to say that it is quite unlikely Gturkey has seen this flag. At last the flag on the right, which Boson probably refered to at last, and which I guess Gturkey thought of, has absolutely no official purpose but is very widely used (sport events etc.). Tomeasy (talk) 08:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, my mistake. I bought a copy of the flag on the right in Germany recently, and (incorrectly) assumed it was the official one. Seems a bit odd, though, to have three variations of one flag. Gturkey (talk) 01:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

A little hint: The flag in the middle is the official state flag. It is forbidden to use it in public for normal people. So the right flag is used by people and waited by the officals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.142.189.221 (talk) 22:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] tfd

There is an additional issue concerning flaggs. The flaggs above use the colors of the democratic movement related to the 1848 revolution. These colors should not be used in connection with fascism, because these colors were in opposition to the Nazi Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.51.91.129 (talk) 20:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Germanic-speaking regions of Europe

Template:Germanic-speaking regions of Europe has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Janneman (talk) 16:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Picture of Bundeskanzler(in)

I'm from Germany, and here the Cancelor (Angela Merkel) for us holds an important representative value, more Germans nows her and not Horst Köhler (President). So I miss a Picture of Angela Merkel, because for us (German People) the Cancellor seems to be more important than the President. --89.51.18.230 (talk) 18:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

How can you speak for the German people? Is it you, Angie? Joachim Weckermann (talk) 05:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

What are you talking about, the president is nothing in Germany, its just a represantive of Germany. Not like in the USA, so you might change that!!!! And yes, he is speaking for all germans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.102.123.211 (talk) 21:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of Claudia Schiffer

I would say that Heidi Klum is as an example for German society more up to date. --89.51.18.230 (talk) 18:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Neither one is representative. I suggest removing the image. I'm sure some pie chart or other graph can be found that illustrates something more interesting. And we don't need an image per paragraph anyway. 87.165.203.240 (talk) 15:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Germany Info

hello I need info on germany's cutlure please —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.178.36.41 (talk) 22:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Please give your opinion about Proposal II which will define Central Europe

Give your support or opposition at the Central Europe talk page, since we are looking for a single definition for it. It's very important. ⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 17:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

muy malos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.252.96.101 (talk) 00:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all that participated and gave their opinion on Proposal II.

Proposal II was approved, 13 editors supported it and 5 editors opposed it. Proposal II is now in effect and it redefined Central Europe. ⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 23:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why

why doesn't this site have geographical features of germany??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.157.226.146 (talk) 22:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] German Speakers?

Hi, I'm trying to compile a list of notable references to support a Wikipedia article concerning a video editor. One I have is in German - if there are any German speakers that could help by reading the articles this would be appreciated. The articles are here: Clesh#References If you believe from the article the video editor is notable please leave some form of comment here: AfD Many thanks, mk (talk) 20:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

BTW if you wish - please make comment directly on the Clesh references page —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark Kilby (talk • contribs) 21:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Science

I don't understand why it says Germany was the home of numerous important mathematicians and scientists. I would say Germany was AND still is home to numerous important mathematicians (Fields medalist Gerd Faltings, MPI Mathematics Bonn) and scientists (2008 Physics Nobel Laureate Peter Grünberg, FZ Jülich and 2008 Chemistry Nobel Laureate Gerhard Ertl, FHI MPG Berlin). So I think we should really rewrite this part. Or someone should explain to me why this article gives the impression that German achievements in science belong to the past. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Werni2 (talk • contribs) 08:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] State law vs. federal law

In reply to the revert [[2]. Although this is luckily (!) a very theoretical debate on death penalty provisions in German state constitutions it is simply not right that Bavaria abolished death penalty. First they just removed one of two provision on death penalty but they didn't abolish it (abolishing is stating that capital punishment is prohobited, though it would be redundant as it is exclusively ruled by the Grundgesetz). Second there still is a provision that explicitely rules death penalty: "Der Vollzug der Todesstrafe bedarf der Bestätigung der Staatsregierung." - "The excecution of death penalty requires confirmation of the state government" (Art. 47 §4 Bayerische Verfassung). This sentence could have been removed as well (alongside some other very silly provisions obsoleted by the Grundgesetz). But up to now it is corect to say: "A famous example are articles on enforcement of the death penalty in some federal laws (Art. 21 § 1 Hesse constitution, Art. 43 §4 Bavarian Constitution) that go against the ban of capital punishment by the Basic Law, rendering these provisions invalid." This doesn't mean that death penalty isn't abolished there it just means that some illegal provisions exist in some state constitutions. Arnomane (talk) 18:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

There is a basic difference between both statements in the constitutions:
The Bavarian regulation does not declare, in which case death penalty has to be imposed as the Hessian did (which says: Bei besonders schweren Verbrechen kann er [ein für schuldig Befundener] zum Tode verurteilt werden - He [someone judged guilty] can be sentenced to death for very serious crimes)! There is not a clause that allows death penalty for any crime in the bavarian constitution. The Bavarian constitution never allowed death penalty by itself however it regulated the confirmation in case of death penalties for example according to federal law (hypotheticaly).
By the way: Most of the constitutions of the german states (except Hesse) do not abolish the death penalty by themself trusting in federal law. Geo-Loge (talk) 21:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Well basically this is all due to the fact that some state constitutions existed shortly previous to the Grundgesetz and out of some narrow-minded local patriotism weren't changed accordingly in every state (some states did and removed all the redundant sections entirely or gave themselves a new constitution). If the current Bavarian or Hesse constitution would have been created today they wouldn't be just considered outdated but even as illegal (there are more irrelevant provision such as poorly written human rights provisions and provisions on bigoted moral values and against true social equality, not to mention the funny state citizenship) and thus everyone could sue Bavaria and Hesse state legally and would win without any doubt and I suppose you could even argue that these constitutions are so strongly opposed to the Grundgesetz that people supporting them could be sued for felony in Germany. Sure there is no need to declare in state constitutions that death penalty is abolished, but neither should be there any provisisons about application of death penalty in them... Anyways I just wanted to highlight that Hesse isn't the only state that has outdated provisions on death penalty. Arnomane (talk) 23:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
But finally you must agree that the Bavarian constitution does not allow death penalty in any clause. The provision Article 47, §4, Clause 2 was a passiv regulation that had no function until either Bavaria itself or the Bundesrepublik had allowed death penalty. Article 47, §4 was not in contradiction to the Grundgesetz (ex falso sequitur quodlibet). The clause was just useless not illegal. Geo-Loge (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
The Bavarian constitution now is death-penalty-free. In article 43 and article 47 the parts with death penalty were shortened. http://www.bayern.landtag.de/bayer_verfassung_erster_hauptteil.html#4

In Hesse the problem is that always the parliament is splintered in so many parties so since 1948 only a few changes could be done. Often they try to do too much changes so one of the parties, needed for the necessary majority, does not agree with one change and so the complete revision failed. So it happened last in 2004. This time it failed, because the social democratic party did not agree with changes in social matters. http://starweb.hessen.de/cache/hessen/landtag/enquetekommissionverfassung/EKV-Bericht.pdf The death penalty can never be used even if Hesse would leave the federel republic, the constitutional court of Hesse would have to weigh the right to live against the death penalty. The right to live would win, maybe the constitutional court would decide, that the article of the constitution is in contradiction to the constitution of Hesse cancle the article. But the constitutional court only can act, if ones human rights are impaired and would go with this "problem" to the constitutional court. So without death penalty, no correction by the constitutional court. In Germany the constitutional courts can correct changes of the constitution if the change is in contradiction to the constitution. This is called "Verfassungswidriges Verfassungsrecht" constitutional law in contradiction to the constitution. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verfassungswidriges_Verfassungsrecht and this: http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/entscheidungen/rs20040303_1bvr237898.html is a case where the german constitutional court weigh constitutional law against constitutional law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.142.194.76 (talk) 17:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Holy Roman Empire

There is something wrong there. "Nationis Germanicae" does not mean "of the german Nation", but "of German Nationality". Thx. --89.13.166.193 (talk) 21:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Try this "Sacrum Romanum Imperium Nationis Germaniæ" in Google and you'll see all translations (also one from Britannica) have it about "German Nation" not "German Nationality". So, I think we should stick to what is currently posted. Tomeasytalk 09:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Precedence

The second highest offical in Germany is the Bundesratspräsident. If the Bundespräsident dies or is absent, the Bundesratspräsident is head of state. The Bundestagspräsident ist just third and the chancelor forth highest official. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.136.7.191 (talk • contribs) 2008-05-19

See #Order of Precedence.
According to Article 57 of the Grundgesetz, if the Federal President is unable to perform his duties they are performed by the President of the Bundesrat, but "rank" according to protocol when both are alive and well is a separate issue.--Boson (talk) 21:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of Munich stadium

suggested picture, Commons:featured_pictures
suggested picture, Commons:featured_pictures

Lear21 and me had a little discussion about the picture of the Allianz Arena here. I couldn´t get satisfying answers there and suggest that either the picture on the right stays in the article or the caption is changed to The Allianz Arena is host to the football clubs Bayern Munich, 1860 Munich and was a venue for the 2006 FIFA World Cup, because the blue illumination stands for a home play for 1860 Munich. Any opinions? Thanks, --Joachim Weckermann (talk) 08:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why the Arena was chosen? There are five, six comparable stadiums in Germany. Why not take an image of the Olympic Stadium (Berlin) which is venue of the national cup finals and would be the venue of prospective UEFA/FIFA finals? Hiding club success it is the most important stadium in Germany. It is furthermore a multi-use stadium and would fit the chapter sport better. Geo-Loge (talk) 12:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the Berlin stadium is the most representative sports arena for the Germany article. I do not now if a good photograph of it is available. I also like the current choice, especially I appreciate the solution of showing the non-illuminated state avoiding the confusion in the caption. So, I think it is fine like it is, but if we had a nice picture of the Berlin stadium, I would support its incorporation.Tomeasytalk 15:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I think Image:Olympicstadium2.jpg is not that bad although it is not a featured picture. One must say in addition, that the Allianzarena is even not a five-star stadium of the UEFA (yet). HSH Nordbank Arena, Signal Iduna Park, Olympiastadium Berlin and Veltins-Arena are more important venues by UEFA ranking. Geo-Loge (talk) 19:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The two most internationally known sport arenas in Germany are the Olympiastadion and the Allianz Arena. Both were either opening or final venue for the World Cup 2006. There are several good reasons for both of them getting installed in this article. The main arguments to have the Allianz Arena in the sports section and in the Germany article in general are: 1. Within a very short time the AA has become an iconic modern! building of Germany 2. It is home to the by far most successful and globally known German football club. 3. because of (2.) it has the highest permanent presence in national and international media 4. The AA broadens the range of regions and cities represented in the article.(Berlin is already represented several times in the article). Note that the iconic appearance of the AA is only related to its unique transluscent/ illuminated facade. It would be not wise having a daylight image therefore. Introducing the daylight image would mean introducing a "Gummiboat" which nobody in the world is able to recognize. all the best Lear 21 (talk) 13:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Many good arguments, especially number 4 convinces me. Any chance you can provide the AA in red illumination? BTW, it is a good custom to discuss things first before reverting. Especially, when a discussion has already started with opposing opinions. Your revert, that personally I do not oppose, was not grounded on consensus in this thread. At least Geo-Loge has not yet stated that he agrees on it. And my consent was also not know to you before I posted this comment. Tomeasytalk 13:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
So we have the image of the Allianz Arena instead of Germanys most important stadium for more sport than just football due to it is the home of Germany's most successfull and globaly best-known football club (we just believe that at this point) but however in the colour of TSV 1860 München.. We have the image of the Allianz Arena in function as the home of 2nd Bundesliga club 1860 München and we huckster that stadium as the home of Germany's most successfull football club. We present nescience especially with the underline.
Berlin is still the capital of Germany if I am informed right and this is why it is some times more illustrated in an article about Germany. Why not bring Hofbräuhaus instead in the chapter cuisine; it is more significant for perception of the germans than a stadium in the open countryside. It might be important in "modern" architecture, it is not a landmark yet. (The Olympic stadium representing contemporary architecture in combination with historic structures is not less artistically important. But this is very marginal in the chapter sport!)
Sport is more than football and this is the reason why the stadium of most importance in football as well as in athletics should be chosen. Geo-Loge (talk) 18:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I support the image of the AA, mostly for the fact that Germany unlike France is not centralistic country and Berlin is allready presented in this article twice. By the way I live much closer to Berlin and like the city more than Munich, but Berlin is not THE center of all kinds in Germany, even if many Berliners seem to believe this. The AA represents football much more than the Olympic stadium -it is true that it is not about other sports, but football is by far the most important sport in everyday live in Germany and far more important than for example athletics (I am not a football fan, but I recongnize it) - and Michael Schumacher also only stands for F1 and not for many sports. But I would not add two stadiums in the article.195.243.51.34 (talk) 06:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
There are at least two stadiums that are going to represent Germany (not a city!) in football: The HSH Nordbank Arena hosting the 2010 UEFA Cup Final and the Olympic stadium hosting the final match of the 2011 FIFA Women's World Cup. The Allianz Arena is not even allowed to host a UEFA Cup/Champions League final due to it is not ranked good enough (yet) and might never be allowed to represent Germany with a Champions League final. So we have scheduled matches and UEFA stadium rankings on the one hand and opinions and privat valuation on the other. If there is still doubt about the question where (federative but statewide) Germany is represented then article 22, Grundgesetz might help. Geo-Loge (talk) 11:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The core question for this section is, how to represent "Football", the most important and most popular national sport of Germany. Arena images are one possibility. Again, nobody makes the case against the Olympiastadion but instead for the AA because of 1.-4. I am a Berliner myself and could easily argue for the OS. On the other hand, the article as an entity should represent Germany. Munich is one of the important centers of the country and should be somehow included. One last thing, the AA image has been added to the article long before my first edit more than 2 years ago. It is by no means a mistake to keep it. all the best Lear 21 (talk) 12:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

It would neither be a mistake to keep the AA, nor would it be to pick one out of Geo-Loge´s list above. If we agree on keeping the AA, it should be displayed in the correct way. Image:Allianzarenacombo.jpg could be a way, paying tribute to the fact that the AA is the only German football stadium hosting two pro teams. Even though it is very clear that Bayern is more important than 1860, this special fact makes it worthwhile to also mention the smaller club and we´d get rid of this tiny incorrectness combining the blue AA with Bayern. Best wishes and many thanks, --Joachim Weckermann (talk) 16:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thomas Kretschmann

I would not consider Thomas Kretschmann as a famous german actor, I had to look him up to remember the face. Maybe he was just included because he is playing in Hollywood. I would rather suggest one of the following: Ulrich Mühe, Alexandra Maria Lara, Moritz Bleibtreu, Til Schweiger, Martina Gedeck.

Or Klaus Kinski's daughter Nastassja Kinski, Udo Kier - both famous in Hollywood. 84.60.164.147 (talk) 23:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Continued attempts to "sneak" in picture of Mussolini

Hitler was the leader of Nazi Germany and face of Nazism, Hitler was the "Fuhrer". Mussolini had zero control of Nazi Germany at all, he was the leader of Italy. I know this is an attempt to say "hey look! there were other bad ones too", but no. An image of Adolf Hitler alone is available, and that is what belongs in the section on German history. Hitler alone, the man who ruled Nazi Germany. Its good enough to be the main pic on his article, its certainly good enough for here. - Gennarous (talk) 18:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Derblaueengel.jpg

The image Image:Derblaueengel.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

  • That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
  • That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --23:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Generalizations

From the text: "After World War II, Germany was divided into two separate states along the lines of allied occupation in 1949.[3] The two states became reunified again in 1990. . . ."

Comments: (1) After WW2 [Insert: "RUMP Germany"] eventually emerged as "two separate states along the lines of allied occupation . . . "; (2) Rump Germany never had a history of existing separately from the Eastern Provinces, so "reunified" or "reunified again" is a non sequitur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.106.18.161 (talk) 05:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tysk?

This may not be the best place to ask this, but I am curious as to the meaning/origin/etymology of the Scandinavian terms Tysk and Tyskland. Is this simply the result of a linguistic drift from Deutchsland, or is it a distinctly separate word, like the various Alemagne/Alemannia/Alemán variants of the Romance languages? LordAmeth (talk) 13:22, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Deutschland (German), Duitsland (Dutch): from the Old High German word "diutisc", meaning 'of the people' (itself from ancient Germanic "thiuda" or "theoda" 'people') and "land" 'land': "land of the people". Of the same root are Tyskland (Danish, Norwegian, Swedish), Þýskaland (Icelandic) and tedesco (Italian adjective form) [3] all the best Lear 21 (talk) 14:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1806-1814??

There is a continuous history of dates covered in the History of Germany section, yet very strangely there is no talk of what took place in Germany (or former Holy Roman Empire) between the years of 1806-1814; thus this is a curiously incomplete account. Granted this article is not the proper History of Germany article, just Germany in general, but how can you account in a broad sense for ALL of the years except for 1806-1814? When I did a little research I found that these 8 years spanned most of the Napoleonic era and the formation of the Confederation of the Rhine, which was very formative to the later development of the German Empire. So why no accounting for these years? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.182.200.229 (talk) 16:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Poverty in Germany

I undid a revert about poverty being not existing in Germany. According to Unicef poverty is existent in Germany: Child Poverty in Rich Countries. German social scientists also hold the opinion that poverty is existent in their country: Armut und Zukunftschancen bei Kindern und Jugendlichen[http://www.dkhw.de/download/14_DKHW_Forderungskatalog.pdf Deutsches Kinderhilfswerk: Forderungskatalog zur Bekämpfung der Kinderarmut in Deutschland]. Of course we are talking about relative poverty not about absolute poverty here. Studies about Poverty and the "new underclass" haven gotten a lot of media coverage in Germany lately.--Resilienzi (talk) 06:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The newly introduced sentence does not present comparable data and is not put in perspective on a global level. It is misleading by several means. In Germany "poor" still means having high standards of paid health insurance, enough money for a year round warm accommodation, food, public transport, TV and internet. Germany is one of very few countries in the world having it´s wealth most equally spread among it´s citizens. See also Gini coefficient. all the best Lear 21 (talk) 14:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
You are right. Being poor in Germany does not mean the same as being poor in Bangladesh or Ghana. But still there is poverty in Germany according to Unicef standards for poverty in rich countries In Deutschland verdoppelt sich die Kinderarmut alle zehn Jahre In Deutschland verdoppelt sich die Kinderarmut alle zehn Jahre Child Poverty in Rich Countries. A huge majority of German scientist holds the opinion that poverty is existant in Germany and it is growing. Studies about Poverty and the "new underclass" haven gotten a lot of media coverage in Germany lately. [4] [5] and a lot of books have been written about this topic by famous German scientists like Butterwege or Palentin.
You are right about poor people having a TV in Germany, but that is not what poverty in rich countries is about and the scientist who talk about poverty in Germany do not complain about lack of TVs. They talk about dim educational perspectives (a growing number of school-dropouts and a growing number of kids graduating from schools without having acquired basic skills), a growing number of violent youths, a steep increase in the teenage-pregenancy rate, a steep increase in the number of youth who are emotionally or mentally challenged and so on. There has been much talk about the fact that the number of kids on welfare has been going up for years (in 1975 one in 75 children lived in welfare, now on in 6 does, in some big cities such as Berlin or Hamburg one in 3 children has to rely on welfare). That's bad no matter how much welfare is and no matter if it does buy you a TV or not. If you do speak German please do a google search for "neue Unterschicht" or "Armut in Deutschland". Sorry if my english is not perfect, i am not a native speaker.--Resilienzi (talk) 11:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Your ideas come very well across, Resilienzi :-) I think it is clear and problematic at the same time that poverty underlies different definitions in different societies. Scientifically, there is enough reliable evidence for all that is mentioned (rich-country-poverty grows in Germany) and there is no objective reason not to include this on wikipedia. IMHO, what Resilienzi proposes complies well with WP policy.
We should, however, very sensitively put it into a reasonable perspective, basically because everything that Lear has said is correct. I would like to add another–temporal–aspect to it. In 1960, the poverty rate in Germany might have been quite low. Measured by today's concepts it would have been incredibly high. Almost nobody enjoyed higher education by then. One more point, this issue has become kind of a buzz discussion (a hype) during the past months and therefore we have to be very careful that our prose remains encyclopedic and does not read like another political pamphlet. Tomeasytalk 12:20, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I can not disagree with all that. On the one side poverty in Germany is relative poverty and it is hard to live in a society of growing wealthy and not having enough resources to join cultural life, education and lates knowledge and so on. But what we are talking about is social inequity. Of course only a few people had a academic education in the 1960s but academic education became more and more the only reliable basement of wealthy since then.
I think is more practicable to exclude the term poverty (there is for example a source telling that about 0% of Germans are undernourished permanently). With the given sources and furthermore sources a chapter about social inequity would be a good completion.
The term poverty is a modern Angst and Zeitgeist in Germany and in some aspect part of the problem and not its result. Geo-Loge (talk) 13:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
To my mind things were very different back in the 1960s. Back then people graduated from Hauptschule and went to work in middle-class jobs. Nowadays in Germany college-education has become nearly a requirement for membership in the middleclass. I have to agree with Geologe on that... and while it is true that more and more people are getting college degrees it is also true that more and more people are dropping out of school without even getting the Hautpschuldiploma and that more and more people do not have the basic reading-skills and mathematical skills needed to work in an industrialized society. Still you may say that Germans are very well-educated compared to people from other countries and of course that is true. However it still is a problem.
Some people have been making claims that Hunger is existent in Germany:
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Es gibt auch Hunger in Deutschland. Wieviele Kinder bekommen nicht genug zu essen?
Siggelkow: Viel zu viele werden fehl- oder mangelernährt. Oft reicht das Geld nur bis zum 20. des Monats und dann gibt es eben zehn Tage nur noch nackte Nudeln. Es existieren aber keine Zahlen darüber, wieviele Kinder von Hunger betroffen sind. Denn kaum eine Mutter wird sagen: Meine Kinder kriegen vom 20. bis zum Monatsende zu wenig zu essen.[6]
I am not sure if that claims are valid. I highly doubt it, but i am not an expert on that.
However to my mind to growing number of people (especially children) who have to depend on welfare should be mentioned in this article. There are some, who need to depend on welfare for a short time and are fine after that but many people have to rely ón welfare for years. some for their whole lives. While this people may enjoy more luxuries than middleclass people in the 1950s did many still have no chance to join the real middle-classes. They may have TVs, mobile phones and Internet, but scientist have been pointing out that the kids have few educational opportunities and few job opportunities and that they are very likely to live on welfare as grown-ups too. Yes, they are provided for, but they have few opportunities to ever reach their full potential and limited opportunities to contribute to the society. Of course there are children who are overcoming the odds, but most don't. I live in Germany, in the Ruhrgebiet on of the most poverty-stricken areas. Some neighbourhoods of the town i live in remind me of giant indian reservations. They are provided for and kept peaceful and out of sight, but this government takes away their dignity by giving them handouts instead of providing opportunities to work and to get an education.
Now what is very bad about this is the fact that the number of people who have to live like that is growing and growing.−−Resilienzi (talk) 16:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Is it really growing and growing? Is it really fact? Well one can refer on statistics. But all that statistics contain classified reality, definitions of class limits etc. One must believe that classification was set right to derive such statements as: Upper-Middleclass is shrinking. Another problem is changing context: the basket of commodities changed as like as the offer (and requirement) of completely new commodities. 20,000 Real-Euro per year might be felt sufficient in 2008 but not in 1998 (when every one was forced to buy expensive computers to have access to expensive internet) or in 2018 (when every one will be forced to buy and operate energy devices like heat pumps, photovoltaic modules and so on to optimize energy supply). So what are we comparing by just include incomes in our relation?
I do not have the source at the moment but the number of poor people increased by 2% between 1995 and 2005.. well that is not that growth that is medialized in my eyes. Imminence of poverty is more and more a social phobia but phobia retards. I see 18 years old people that decline starting an university education due to their parents might will have a larger risk of getting unemployed in the next 4 years. The German 2.0 will evaluate all his risks and his life profit with the first contraction to decide whether to go on or not.. ;) a society is very self dependent to grant welfare and to avoid poverty in all its aspects. Geo-Loge (talk) 19:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, to my mind thats really a fact. Many scientist belief that welfare dependency is a good indicator for measuring poverty. This article In Deutschland verdoppelt sich die Kinderarmut alle zehn Jahre states that in Germany the number of children on welfare doubles every ten years and it is still growing while the economy is booming and the number of those without a job is declining. In 1965 on in 75. children lived on welfare now one in six does. There are many cities were 40% of minors live on welfare according to the article. In cities such as Bielefeld 50% of minority youngsters are on welfare. Nationwide 1/3 of minority youngsters drop-out of school without receiving a diploma according to the article. I think that's some facts the German public is very worried about and to my mind they are right to be worried about that. This article points out that children growing up poor are less likely to succeed in school and that their physical and cognitive health is endangered. „Ausgeschlossen“ – Kinderarmut in Deutschland. This article Mehr als 800.000 arme Kinder in NRW speaks about a cyle of disadvantage--Resilienzi (talk) 07:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Please let's find a few sentences we all do agree on and we can include into the article.--Resilienzi (talk) 07:46, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
It is important to state statistical delay, too! Most of the data one can refer to, to include some sentences are just up to 2005. This 3-year-delay brings an unrecognized lack of knowledge to studies whether the result is positiv or negative. Geo-Loge (talk) 09:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
That's data from 2006/2006. It's newer than most other sources in the article.—Resilienzi (talk) 10:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some plurality agreements for subjects

Under the heading "Economy," it states that "A growing number of Germans is poor. Children are more likely to be poor than adults In 1965 only one in 75 children lived on welfare, now one in 6 does."

In "A growing number of Germans is poor," the correct grammar would be "A growing number of Germans are poor."

Also, there is no period after the sentence "Children are more likely to be poor than adults". This claim is not backed by any sources.

Nichtsoren (talk) 17:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Fixed.--Boson (talk) 19:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Immigration-nonsense sentence

Are these nonsense sentences? Read and correct if you understand what they are supposed to mean: 'After the end of the influx of so-called Gastarbeiter (blue-collar guest-workers), refugees were a tolerated exception to this point of view. Today the government and the German society are acknowledging the opinion, that controlled immigration should be allowed based on the qualification of immigrants.' What point of view? And why 'after'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.176.125.227 (talk) 22:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The "POV" or "the opinion [...] that Germany is not a country of immigration". And "after" because after the influx of Gastarbeiters ended because Germany didn't need any more low-level workers, the only major group of (legal) immigrants were refugees. Lars T. (talk) 12:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of president is misleading

i suggest to move/remove the picture of president horst köhler in the government-section. the head of state is the chancellor, and her picture

should be there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.39.182.46 (talk) 16:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I am always surprised when I read extremely clear cut statements—heavily overconfident—and then they are just as wrong as they are simple. Here's another example: "the head of state is the chancellor". Of course, that is not true. The chancellor is the head of government, while the president is the head of state. How can one place such a comment, whilst obviously not even knowing what head of state means. (Sorry for that.)
Which picture should now be put in the government section? That is of course still debatable. However, we have Angela's picture already in the article. After all, I am satisfied with how the current version manages to show both of them.Tomeasytalk 17:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.148.97 (talk) 22:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a small note, if you dont know it better, dont say something. The Head of Germany is the Chancellor, even if you want it or not. We are not the USA, even if the word president is confusing you. And tell me, were did you get the information that the president is the head of germany?? Tell me, would you! The chancellor is more powerfull, although she is in the third place, but it doesnt matter at all. And if you want to know about the rang of our president, look it up, look up his job and his power, and you will find not so much... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.102.123.211 (talk) 21:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Be careful what you say, for it may be held against you. This is not about the Head of Germany, but about who is the german Head of state. And that is the President, recognizable by the fact that every law that is made must be signed by the president (not the chancellor!) before it can come into effect. This is regardless of the fact that constitution gives the political power effectivly to the chancellor and the parlament has the ability to force the president to sign a law (the president has no veto-power) . Nevfennas (talk) 22:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I completly agree with you, but I find the last part of your response misleading. There are no provisions to force the president to sign a law. The only way for the parliament to achieve that is by suing him in the Bundesverfassungsgericht, something that (I hope I remember correctly) never happened yet. --Wladi001 (talk) 16:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar

This sentence should be rendered into the past tense: Renewable energy is generating 14% of the country's total electricity consumption in 2007.. --76.113.200.215 (talk) 03:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. In the future, you are more than welcome to make these kind of edits yourself. Kman543210 (talk) 03:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Well done. Please notice that the article is under protection and IPs cannot edit it. Tomeasytalk 08:39, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for mentioning that. To be honest, I never pay attention to the protection status of an article, so I didn't even notice that and thought the IP user was asking permission. Kman543210 (talk) 08:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I know. I made the same kind of comment somewhere up on this talk page. Well, you won't think of it until someone mentions. I am actually wondering why this articles is constantly under protection. Not that I am opposing this protection. In deed, I would like all articles to be protected this way. But I am wondering why it is so for Germany all the time, while elsewhere we have to revert disruptive comments all the time. Tomeasytalk 08:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New Constitutional Court in Schleswig-Holstein

Schleswig-Holstein recently formed a Verfassungsgericht [7], please remove the outdated info from the section "State level". --Wladi001 (talk) 16:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] locator map; orange or green

It appears to me that there is a need for discussion on what map -- orange or green -- to use in the info box. I have just reverted a change on this, and I am afraid that the editor will object this revert. So, perhaps it is a good idea to have an open discussion on the issue.
Changing from orange to green, the edit summary stated that it is due to harmonizing the EU locator maps. This is far from being realistic! There is currently a quite even split among EU countries using an orange or green map. The number of orange maps, however, is rather increasing than declining. So, while the standardized version is far from being installed (if ever), it would rather be the orange one, I think. That's why I reverted. However, I can imagine that there are more arguments that motivated the change and I am open to listen to them -- as I have of course arguments for the orange map. Tomeasytalk 10:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I have to correct one of my statements above. The current split is not even, but 2:1 for green. However, it does not change the argument that there is no standard. Tomeasytalk 10:23, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
imho the orange map is nicer, but the fact that this 'standardisation' had made Germany to Slovenia is a bit ... disturbing ;-) Sebastian scha. (talk) 11:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
the orange map is easier to read and has more details--Zarbi1 (talk) 12:37, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Tomeasy, I will not die for this change, however I have seen a recent move from orange to green; the fact that some countries are still orange is because there is no green map for it (obviously this is not the case for Germany). I thought it was some sort of standard to move towards the green maps, as I have been seeing it recently. But, if a set of editors that cover this article (and protect it against vandals and incorrect updates) think that orange is better, then fine with me. Danke! Miguel.mateo (talk) 13:11, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
My apologies if the lengthly introduction to this talk section seemed to insinuate that you might be desperate in this question. I really did not want to make it appear so. I was probably overreacting due to the fact that I have read through pages of discussion that were written when the orange maps came up one or two years ago and I was afraid this discussion might be repeated now. Sorry again.Tomeasytalk 13:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
No problems, I still think the green map is better ;) Miguel.mateo (talk) 14:34, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] spelling mistake in chapter Economy

Could somebody please correct it?

It says "Hanover" with an "n" missing.

(If this is a reference to a popular German comedy show in the 90s... forget it: The joke is lost around here!!!)

Come again...Tomeasytalk 00:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
That is the English spelling. see Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany/Conventions#Contemporary placenames. --Boson (talk) 07:43, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Moldavian-German relations

Hello! I just started the article Moldavian-German relations. It would be nice to have an input from German editors who care. The article as it stands today, needs major expansion on history, economy, diplomatical relationsn, etc. Thanks to all interested in advance...