Talk:German Revolution of 1918-19

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Just wrote first article for wikipedia about a German politician. Needed a link to the German Revolution of 1918 and found this article.

I feel it would be better titled "German Revolution of 1918" rather than "German Revolution", because there has been more than one revolution in the history of Germany, for example, the German Revolution of 1848. The only way to distinguish between these revolutions is to use their full names.



who knows what would have happened if they, the sailors and marines, hadn't chickened out of their duty. it seems like this honorless act is being praised. yet in a diveous way

--Fibulator 11:31, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Dear Fibulator, firstly the outcome would not have been much different. From a marxist perspective this was a failed revolution anyway, and even if the revolutionary left would have succeeded it is highly unlikely that the West would have tolerated a potentially dangerous "dictatorship of the proletariate" in the heart of Europe. Moreover, as the war was irretrievably lost in Oct. 1918 (see OHL) we can certainly assume that the Entente would have taken Willie 2 out of business in either case and established a Western style democracy. Willie was lucky that he and his entourage weren't accused of war crimes. It was the Treaty of Versailles which made the Weimar Republic chronically unstable right from the start, not the failed revolution. Secondly the conscripted seamen were couragous enough to mutiny and ignore a highly irrational order which would have led to the certain death of countless young men. Today their families are probably quite happy that Grandpa "chickened out". As for the alleged "duty", the war log of the Naval Warfare Command is an informative source: Victory wasn't to be expected and the reasons to attack the British Grand Fleet were not strategic but rather "moral" ones like retrieving honour through the ultimate sacrifice bla bla. Needless to say that today's European soldiers would probably laugh at such muddle-headed babbling and I would expect every decent soldier to question silly oders instead of obeying blindly.Teodorico 11:24, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Aye, such people that call an excercise of certain-death heroic (Charge of the Light Brigade being the most famous example) aren't really on the level now are they? The Royal Navy had Germany in a tight vice and far dwarfed whatever fleets they had left. I doubt that charging straight towards certain death is more brave than rising against insanity? Henners91 07:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Expansion possibilities

How about we translate the German wikipedia article which was a featured article and is very informative? -Chile 17:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

In the first section there is apparently a hacking attempt...the "word" ppeenniiss appears, which I suspect is not supposed to be there. I wasn't able to determine if a word was replaced or what word might be "missing." For the moment I didn't change it, but I will the next time through if no one else knows what it was supposed to say. There may be others too, but I haven't read the whole article yet. Wood Artist 18:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I was thinking that.

But it would be very time Consuming. And then again I mess up German to English sometimes. So bare with me. I will try and start doing that if it is not illegal. Please feel free to correct me in any places I make mistakes.--Ichpuchtli 09:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] translation from german wikipedia

i use both german and english wikipedia frequently, found the english version of this topic very poor and took the time to translate the german one into english. basically i stuck to the german version, only adding a few notes from other sources. as the german version is marked with a star for excellency it should be a welcome contribution to the english wikipedia. i'd welcome english speakers to iron out some bumps in the language. also i'm not familiar with the english way of references and just took over the german ones. somebody also might like to change them, although i do not find them too confusing. taking over the pictures did not work out and i will try again. (user added later: Sundar1 09:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC))

hanks for that - it's a great improvement and a good basis to work on, I suspect we'll need to iron out a few things, but shouldn't take too long...--Red Deathy 13:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] pictures

i'm sorry i cannot figure out how to get the pictures from the german into the english version. would be nice if some other person could. only the "august bebel" picture i find unnecessary. (user added later: Sundar1 09:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Historical Classification

I have tagged the last section (historical classification) as POV since it calls alternate theories "lies" which are "unfortunately" very diffucult to root out of the popular understanding of the subject. Instead of staking out a position, the section should compare and contrast historical and modern scholarship on the subject and should say who has denouced/debunked a view rather than simply labeling it false. Eluchil404 11:51, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sailors mutiny in Kiel

Today I have corrected several errors, which appeared on the German wikipedia page and were translated to the English wikipedia. These were mainly:

  • There were also disobediece cases in the Third Squadron (not only in the First)
  • Those mutineers who have been led away in Wilhelmshaven were NOT brought to Kiel.
  • Lothar Popp was not a sailor he was dismissed in 1917 or 1918 from military service and had to work at the ship yard in Kiel as a mobilised worker.
  • Steinhäuser was only injured but not killed. According to records from the military hospital he was discharged as healed.(see Dähnhardt.

--91.6.168.229 21:55, 24 February 2007 (UTC); sorry, forgot to sign in: --Kuhl-k 21:55, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Treaty of Brest-Litovsk really worse than Treaty of Versailles?

The article states that the conditions imposed on the Russians by the Germans were *much* harsher than those by the Allies on Germany at the end of World War I...

I looked at the Wiki article for the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, however, and while they did take much more land and transferred populations away from the Russians (both the land and people were generally non-Russian in any case however), as well as demand reparations payment(s), there was no mention of future (let alone decades-long) reparations payments, which, as I understand it, was the most severe hardship of the Treaty of Versailles (it crippled the postwar German economy and laid the groundwork for political radicalism). Also I did not see anything about a requirement for a drastically-reduced Russian military capability in the article on Brest-Litovsk, as there famously was at Versailles. Critic9328 00:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Colloquialism?

In one of the paragraphs related to the outbreak of the war, the article states "...thus following the late party leader August Bebel, who had declared in 1904 in the Reichstag, that he himself would shoulder the gun when going against Russia."

What exactly is meant by "shoulder the gun"? Is this a poorly translated colloquialism or a direct quote or what? I can guess what it means but it should be phrased better. Inoculatedcities 13:45, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

"shouldering the gun" means putting the gun over one's shoulder, they way a gun is usually carried. it is said exactly the same way in german (das gewehr shultern) and to my knowledge the translation is quite proper english, also in the u.s.a. when saying this, bebel meant that he is ready to take up arms against russia.Sundar1 18:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] status of article

can anyone explain why this article needs to be "wikified"? it's a translation from the german version which even has a "star". the german version, without any discussion, has a number of sections which were deleted in the english version as pov. yet, the status of the english version remains. Sundar1 19:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV? Myth?

The stab in the back is a myth? I don't think so. This is obvious POV. The revolution was going on the whole time toward the end of the war, and there were strikes in Germany while the war was happening. The mutiny at Kiel and then the spartacist uprising. This didn't occur? That sounds like it would make sense for a stab in the back theory. It didn't just originate by some statement in the Reichstag. YankeeRoman(24.75.194.50 17:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC))

I don't know what I think about the myth myself; but it is certainly a *valid* point of view. To soldiers that still "believed" in the war the German Army had achieved victories and was yet to be "defeated" in open battle. To a man like Adolf Hitler; the political left rising up back home and the eventual Versailles Treaty was a betrayal of the German people. (They could have supposedly achieved better terms).

No, it is a myth. The stab in the back myth says that the German Army was betrayed by the home front, and in particular the politicians. What actually happened was slightly different. The German High Command realised that it was in an untenable military position, and decided to make moves towards an armistice. They then got the government to sign off on this, so that they would take the blame for it. The German Revolution began about the third of November, and the Republic was proclaimed in Berlin on the 9th. The Armistice was the 11th. The Spartacist Rising didn't happen until January 1919, long after the Armistice. Just because people believed it doesn't mean it's not a myth. Supersheep (talk) 00:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] update + myth?

the german version has been considerably redone and expanded. i translated and checked the whole article, hopefully not leaving too many mistakes behind. my head is spinning and it would be nice for others to straighten out the language where necessary. as to the questioning of the "myth": why should it be considered a "stab in the back" if a population stops supporting a war, especially if one in democratically minded? besides, it's called a myth because it is said that the change of mind in the population or the revolution was the reason for germany's defeat. perhaps the german army could have lasted for another while but, after the u.s. joined the entente, certainly not for very long. you would have certainly been very hard pressed to find any soldiers still believing in the war or even victory. Sundar1 14:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] communist revolution?

Why is this catagorized as a communist revolution? The article itself describes why many political extremists with different views which it to be considered one and makes a good case as to why it should be listed as such. 70.234.202.3 19:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV problems

"But the roots of this revolution can be found in the social tensions of the German Empire, its backward, undemocratic constitution and the unwillingness or inability of its leaders to reform. Further reaching goals inspired by socialist ideas of the revolutionaries were foiled by the leadership of the Social Democratic Party in January 1919. Fearing an all-out civil war they, in line with the other middle-class parties, did not have in mind to completely strip the old imperial elites of their power. Instead they thought to reconcile them with the new democratic conditions. In this endeavour they sought an alliance with the Supreme Command and had the army quell the so called "Spartacist Uprising" by force."

This entire paragraph from the introduction consistutes POV. It is political opinion from the point of view of one specific party. The article should present established fact rather than political speculation or theory.

The specific problems are:

- The original research style claim to know the roots of the german revolution

- The claim that "futher reaching goals" were "foiled" by the SDP.

- The political POV suggesting what the motives of the SDP were

- The phrase "so-called" in front of Spartacist uprising. There either was or was not a Sparticist uprising. Words like "so-called" have no place as used in this article. You can make the case that there was no uprising by presenting a view of events but you can't have the article say the army quelled it and at the same time question if it happened.

There are numerous other similar problems with political opinion in the article. While I gave one example, they all need to be fixed. 70.234.228.156 19:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


1. arguing like that, one can never know the true reasons for any revolution, unless you know of one, where they have been written down before it took place, to make sure, everybody knew the reasons afterwards. i it’s quite a safe assumption to deduce the reasons for a revolution from the demands made during the revolution. so, in this case the reasons are stated quite correctly.

2. there were goals going beyond the immediate demands for peace, the fall of the kaiser etc. if these were not foiled by the spd-leadership (in line with the military), then by who else?

3. the motives of the spd-leadership were clearly not the same as the ones of the party as a whole (see erfurt spd-convention). and again, the leadership did not write down its motives before taking action. thus, the motives must be drawn from the deeds, results and later, the parties own explanation.

4. you only need to check with the article “sparticist uprising” to see why it is called the “so-called” spartacist uprising. it’s “so-called” because it was not spartacist and therefore also referred to as “january uprising”. Sundar1 16:24, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

1 - I dont think Wikipedia is the appropriate place for anyone to be making political speculation on motivations. Calling the pre-revolutionary consititution "backward" or saying there was "inability of its leaders to reform" are subjective political opinions from one point of view about the revolution. Statements that take on a political point of view are inappropriate.
2 - THe text can say what the goals of each side were. The text can say what the policies of each side was. But the text cannot say that one side "foiled" the further reaching socialist goals of the other.
3 - The current text in substance and tone is rooted in the point of view of the SPD's opponents. What is being done is to draw motives for the SPD from the point of view of their opponents which is completely inappropriate. Its possible to say what each side thought it was trying to do but the text cannot interprete the motives of one side from the point of view of the other side. That is non-neutral.
4 - you can call it Spartacist uprising or you can call it January uprising. But referring to it as "so-called" is inappropriate.

75.22.153.187 01:44, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

1. Saying that the direct cause of the Revolution was the policy of the Supreme Command is just as much POV (in fact, probably more so) than saying what the bit you had a problem with is - the revolution was the culmination of the growing desire for democratic rule, spearheaded by the SPD. The Kiel mutinies were really just the catalyst. In fact, the original section was probably closer to being right - albeit expressed in POV terms.
2. Foiled is a bad choice of words, but there were elements pushing for a more left-wing course (and some elements pushing for a more right-wing course, but these weren't really in open conflict with the state).
3. Historical research consists of trying to work out what people's motives were from the evidence they left behind. If there are sources, then it's not POV. Once again, it's not expressed neutrally, but they were the key concerns of the SPD.
4. Spartacist Uprising is the common term, but, as the article says, it isn't really that accurate. I don't know what official Wikipedia policy on this is, though.
This article does need some work. This is something that I will be happy to take on in a week or two, once my current batch of essays are out of the way (along with the Spartacist one, seeing as I did an essay on that last year.) Supersheep (talk) 00:51, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Translate into English

Ich nicht verstandannen. Seriously, parts of this article are so poorly written that I can't understand them. Can someone with better English and a good understanding of the article re-write it into proper English? For the love of God.58.107.72.85 (talk) 23:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Little cited, lots original research

For the amount of text there's very little citation, mostly all in the last section. The citations that do come in tend to be confirming one quote or fact, and then surrounding that one quote and fact is mounds upon mounds of original research. All interpretation in this article should ideally be supported by scholarly sources and properly cited, as it is the article seems to have a distinct ideological point of view, although counter arguments are punched in here and there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.215.67 (talk) 07:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Haffner

This article leans heavily on Haffner's works. However Haffner is not considered a very reliable historian within the scientific community. Which is not so strange considering his background in combination with the theme of socialist revolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.45.156.6 (talk) 19:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Sebastian Haffner was a non-academic but nonetheless renowned author on historical themes, and his background was rather conservative.
2. The article is not only based on his work but on that of a large number of acknowledged german historians, such as Heinrich August Winkler, Volker Ulrich, Hagen Schulze, Hans Mommsen etc. 212.222.158.138 (talk) 11:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
In support of this - Defying Hitler is one of the books that's highest up on the reading list for our Weimar course. Also, I haven't forgotten about this - I will be back in to do some tidying next week. Supersheep (talk) 00:13, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 19:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)