Talk:German Reich

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Should something be brought in to this article to discuss the opinion of Germany's Federal Constitutional Court that Deutsches Reich, theoretically, still exists? See the German article on Deutsches Reich--Dub8lad1 23:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I am quite interested in this, but my German is rusty... can you translate Deutsches Reich for me? Ameise -- chat 07:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The Federal Republic of Germany is under constitutional law and according to the international law personality the very same to the German Reich and therefore it is identical with the German Reich. --Orangerider 17:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Translation 2 The Deutsches Reich still existed after 1945 3 Own article 4 Definition of Reich 5 An attempt to clean up this whole naming mess 6 Requested move 6.1 Discussion

[edit] Translation

Can't Deutsches Reich also be translated as German Empire and German State, depending on the political situation (for instance, the German Empire, the Weimar Republic, and Nazi Germany were all Deutsches Reich, although Nazi Germany was unofficially Großdeutsches Reich, after the Anschluss with Austria) Ameise -- chat 07:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

In 1943, "Großdeutsches Reich" became the official name of Germany, too. --Orangerider 16:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

What about the German word Imperium (Empire) versus Reich? Germans themselves refer to the British Empire using the term „Britisches Imperium“. Has this question been addressed?

71.245.5.103 23:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

It has been semi-addressed elsewhere. While that word is used in German to describe some other states or empires, Germany did not use the word Imperium to describe any part of the German Reich. The word Kaiserreich was unofficially used during the time of the German Empire (1871-1918). For the Holy Roman Empire, the word Imperium was used only in Latin, with Reich used in German. - 52 Pickup 09:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not used to the expression "Britisches Imperium". At least in modern German language it's always called "British/das britische Empire" or simply "Das Empire".

The German/Latin word "Imperium" is more often used for the ancient Roman Empire, seldom if ever for any German empire.--MacX85 12:02, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Deutsches Reich still existed after 1945

As I promised heres the full quote:

Das Bundesverfassungsgericht stellte am 31. Juli 1973 bei der Überprüfung des Grundlagenvertrags mit der DDR fest (2 BvF 1/73):

Das Deutsche Reich existiert fort, besitzt nach wie vor Rechtsfähigkeit, ist allerdings als Gesamtstaat mangels Organisation, insbesondere mangels institutionalisierter Organe selbst nicht handlungsfähig.

Mit der Errichtung der Bundesrepublik Deutschland wurde nicht ein neuer westdeutscher Staat gegründet, sondern ein Teil Deutschlands neu organisiert […]. Die Bundesrepublik Deutschland ist also nicht „Rechtsnachfolger“ des Deutschen Reiches, sondern als Staat identisch mit dem Staat „Deutsches Reich“, – in bezug auf seine räumliche Ausdehnung allerdings „teilidentisch“, so daß insoweit die Identität keine Ausschließlichkeit beansprucht. […] Sie beschränkt staatsrechtlich ihre Hoheitsgewalt auf den „Geltungsbereich des Grundgesetzes“

I like Burke's Peerage 14:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm not going to translate the whole quote but try to explain what the Bundesverfassungsgericht meant to say. "Die Bundesrepublik Deutschland ist also nicht „Rechtsnachfolger“ des Deutschen Reiches, sondern als Staat identisch mit dem Staat „Deutsches Reich“" means: "The Federal Republic of Germany is not the 'legal successor' of the German Empire, but identical with the state 'Deutsches Reich'" (just a new name for an old country). The next part of the sentence means that as the territory of the German Empire and the territory of the Federal Republic of Germany are not the same, the identity as a state can only be partial and not exclusive (as the West German constitution wasn't in effect in East Germany and the former German territories). The conclusion the court drew was that the (East German) territories of the German Empire outside of the Federal Republic of Germany can not be seen as foreign soil (that's why they couldn't admit that the German Empire was gone).

So in this sense after the Reunification of West and East Germany and the waiver of the old German territories in Poland, Russia and elsewhere the identity between the German Reich and the Federal Republic of Germany has been fully established. 217.83.108.126 22:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it means that after the defeat of Germany in World War II "The German Reich still existed as a legal entity, but that it had no institutional organs of a state. With the establishment of the Federal Republic of Germany a new West German state was not created, but as a part of Germany with state organs again ... Thus the FRG is not a legal successor to the German Reich but the same state with jurisdiction limtied to the area where the Basic Law applies."

However Germany was not fully sovereign at that time[1] [2], so and the semantics of whether Germany was still under the sovereignty of the former German state or under that of the Four Powers is open to debate. I think you would have to come up with an example of a four power statement which recognised that the German Reich still existed and that the FRG was a legitimate expression of that state to confirm a position taken by an entity which was part of the FRG and making the statement during Ostpolitik. -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

There is no former state because Germany exists since the constitution of the North German Confederation in 1867 as an international legal personality, and since 1871 as an nation state. That means Germany is identical the very same state according to international law and under constitutional law. --Orangerider 16:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

A full English translation of the judgement by the BVerfG can be found here - 52 Pickup 06:32, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

--Yikrazuul 12:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC) I contradict. This is only a hypothesis. 1950 the Federal Republik of Germany was totally new (new instituion, parites,...). Some people here in Wiki try to have some nice arguments, that the old "German Empire" still exists on the paper. But even in 1990, with the contract of Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany there was neve mentionend the old realm - only the FR of Germany and the German Democratic Republic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yikrazuul (talk • contribs) 12:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Own article

German Reich must not redirect to German Empire because German Empire only is about Germany in 1871-1918. Germany as a nation state exists since 1871 until today. --Orangerider 16:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of Reich

There is an increasing use of the word realm to describe the Deutsches Reich and there is the fact that while empire has its own literal translation in German, Kaiserreich. The english word "realm" has no other translation in German other than reich, and reich is used like realm, to describe a variety of types of nations, i.e. a konigreich, means a kingdom not a King's Empire, while King's Realm is more possible. Opponents to using the word "realm" note the fact that reich is used to describe many empires. Supporters of the translation to realm, like me, counter that by pointing out that it is possible that Germans describe many empires as realms, unless they are consistent literal empires with emperors, in which they are called a kaiserreich, or that reich may be used as a shortened down version of kaiserreich.--R-41 10:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

But it is not our place to decide upon translations in this way - that is OR - 52 Pickup 19:14, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

IMO, it should be "Reich" like "German Reich". Let's leave it at that. --Orangerider 19:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

In case of Germany I would like to translate "Reich" with "Empire" since it derives from the (Holy) Roman Empire. While the modern state clearly doesn't stand in the medieval tradition, the name does. Translating "Reich" with "Reich" is confusing.--MacX85 12:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

"Empire" is WP:OR! There's no source for that term. --Orangerider 14:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An attempt to clean up this whole naming mess

Instead of a scattered debate and an impending edit war over various articles (e.g. Talk:Nazi Germany#Realm etc.), here is yet another attempt to clean up this mess while trying to keep a cool head. I have no biases either way in the matter, I just want to get the facts established so we can all get on with other things.

As I see it, there are a number of problems here:

1. The fact that it is standard to break up the Deutsches Reich (1871-1945, or till 1943 if you include the name change to Großdeutsches Reich) into 3 periods, even though it is all the one country: the differences are determined by a change in government type (monarchy to democratic republic to dictatorship). You could even put in a 4th period (1918-19 revolutionary period) if you like.
2. There is a contention that the translation between German and English must be 1-to-1, which is of course false. It is not necessary to have one word for Kaiserreich and one for Reich. Sure, Reich can mean "empire", but it doesn't mean JUST "empire". A Kaiserreich is simply something ruled by an emperor, and that word was never used officially (see The 1871 constitution and The 1919 constitution)
3. The term "German Empire" is used in English just to describe the 1871-1918 period, although the German name "Deutsches Reich" covers the entire 1871-1945/3 period - and this is probably what is causing the confusion.

Now, onto to taking care of these problems

"Realm" is wrong. Simple.
For 1918-1945, the term "German Reich" is the most commonly used in English, without translation of Reich (and, unlike many involved in this current debate, I'm a native English speaker). By reading the recent citations made to Time magazine articles ([3], [4]), there is nothing to say that "Realm" is the official name. The term "British realm" has been used a lot over time, but does that mean that that is the official name for the UK or the British Empire/Commonwealth? Of course not.

An official document or statement of some sort - NOT a magazine article - is needed to sort out the matter. And here is such an official document: [5], the text of the Kellogg-Briand Pact (AKA Pact of Paris) from 1928. The opening reads:

WHEREAS a Treaty between the President of the United States Of America, the President of the German Reich, His Majesty the King of the Belgians, the President of the French Republic, His Majesty the King of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas, Emperor of India, His Majesty the King of Italy, His Majesty the Emperor of Japan, the President of the Republic of Poland, and the President of the Czechoslovak Republic, providing for the renunciation of war as an instrument of national policy, was concluded and signed by their respective Plenipotontiaries at Paris on the twenty-seventh day of August, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-eight, the original of which Treaty, being in the English and the French languages, is word for word as follows:

See? The official name is "German Reich" without translation. And from looking through some other documents, the term "German Reich" is used far far more than "German Realm" for the 1918-1945 period, and is always used in official matters. Ende. So please stop adding the "German Realm" translation - it is unnecessary, misleading and borders on original research.

Article names
A minor issue is what should all of the articles be called. Names such as "Weimar Republic" or "Nazi Germany" are by no means official, they simply describe the period. Perhaps the current German Empire article should be renamed to Imperial Germany, while this page (Deutsches Reich) be renamed to "German Empire" if that would help clarify matters.

So that's my initial thoughts on the matter. Now let's put the matter to bed so we can get on with things. - 52 Pickup 20:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your statement. But this article shouldn't be renamed to "German Empire" because that would be also false. Its name must be "Deutsches Reich" or "German Reich".

Conclusion:

• "German Reich" ("Deutsches Reich" was from 1871 until 1945 the official state name of Germany):
  • 1871-1918: "German Empire" or "Imperial Germany"
  • 1919-1933: "Weimar Republic"
  • 1933-1945: "German Reich at Nazi period" or "Third Reich" or "Nazi Germany" (latter can remain, but it's not neutral)
    • 1943-1945: "Great German Reich" ("Großdeutsches Reich" became official state name)
  • "Germany as a whole" (given name by Allies):
    • 1945-1949: "Germany 1945-1949" or "Occupied Germany"
    • 1949-1990: "Federal Republic of Germany" or "West Germany" (or "FRG")
    • 1949-1990: "German Democratic Republic" or "East Germany" (or "GDR")
• "Germany":
  • 1990-now : "Federal Republic of Germany" and "Germany" (from 1990, also official state (short) name)

--Orangerider 04:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes. At the very least, this article should be moved to an English name, so "German Reich" would be the best choice. I just tried to do it, but it looks like an admin is needed to reverse the direction of a redirect. - 52 Pickup 07:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

• • 1871-1918 should be "German Empire" or "Wilhelmine Germany"; probably the first as more common. "Imperial Germany" is ambiguous: Es gibt nur ein Kaiserstadt/ und das heisst Wien, as the song says.
  • The Republic was declared in November 1918. That it did not acquire a constitution or a name immediately is secondary. Weimar Republic is English usage.
  • Third Reich is probably most common. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The republic was proclaimed in 1918, that's right. But the Weimar Republic began officially on August 11, 1919, when the "Verfassung des Deutschen Reichs" was to set in force. Therefore, the formly date (in an encyclopedia) is 1919. --Orangerider 17:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for this discussion because there is a similar inconsistent use throughout the WW2 articles on use of name Germany --Mrg3105 (talk) 13:10, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

This article has been renamed from Deutsches Reich to German Reich as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 09:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)