Talk:Gerald Schroeder

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More information about this article... This article has been marked as needing immediate attention. The following comments have been left for this page: In recent communication with Dr Schroeder, he asked this response be given to the critics of his calculation that six days of creation as described in Genesis is approximately 14-15 billion years. "In calculating the age of the universe based on biblical data, Schroeder uses neither gravity nor velocity relativistic effects. The calculation, based totally on the expansion of space, a concept totally accepted in cosmology, in brief flows as follows. The Talmud (ca. the year 400) in the section HaGigah tells us that the six days of Genesis from the creation of the universe to the creation of Adam form a separate calendar from the time after Adam, the first human but not the first human-like being according to the Talmud, Maimonides (ca. 1190) and Nahmanides (ca. 1250). The Kabalist Nahmanides writes that his teachers taught that the numbering of each of the six days shows that for these six days, the perspective of time is seen from near the creation looking forward rather than back into history as we do. The numbering goes: day one, a 2nd day, a 3rd day etc. So why day one and not a first day he asks. And explains the Bible writes ‘day one’ because for its view, there had not yet been a 2nd day. That is the Bible for these days sees time looking forward from near the beginning. Then Nahmanides proceeds and expands. The clock of the Bible starts when stable matter forms from the energy of the creation. Time is created at the creation, Nahmanides writes, but the clock of the Bible starts only when stable matter forms. (“When matter forms, time grabs hold,” to use his wording). That moment is the energy level of protons. The ratio of the scale or the energy level or the temperature of space between then and now is nominally a million million according to astronomy text books. Projecting the estimated age of the universe as viewed from our perspective back to the biblical perspective requires a compression of time by this million million factor. That compression, blue shifting is the jargon in astronomy, reduces the 14 to 15 billion year age as per NASA to approximately five and a half days. The days remain 24 hours each, as “the days of our work week” again to quote Nahmanides, but “contain all the days of the world.” And they do." Gerald Schroeder (edit)

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Help with this template Comments: edit – history – watch – refresh In recent communication with Dr Schroeder, he asked this response be given to the critics of his calculation that six days of creation as described in Genesis is approximately 14-15 billion years. "In calculating the age of the universe based on biblical data, Schroeder uses neither gravity nor velocity relativistic effects. The calculation, based totally on the expansion of space, a concept totally accepted in cosmology, in brief flows as follows. The Talmud (ca. the year 400) in the section HaGigah tells us that the six days of Genesis from the creation of the universe to the creation of Adam form a separate calendar from the time after Adam, the first human but not the first human-like being according to the Talmud, Maimonides (ca. 1190) and Nahmanides (ca. 1250). The Kabalist Nahmanides writes that his teachers taught that the numbering of each of the six days shows that for these six days, the perspective of time is seen from near the creation looking forward rather than back into history as we do. The numbering goes: day one, a 2nd day, a 3rd day etc. So why day one and not a first day he asks. And explains the Bible writes ‘day one’ because for its view, there had not yet been a 2nd day. That is the Bible for these days sees time looking forward from near the beginning. Then Nahmanides proceeds and expands. The clock of the Bible starts when stable matter forms from the energy of the creation. Time is created at the creation, Nahmanides writes, but the clock of the Bible starts only when stable matter forms. (“When matter forms, time grabs hold,” to use his wording). That moment is the energy level of protons. The ratio of the scale or the energy level or the temperature of space between then and now is nominally a million million according to astronomy text books. Projecting the estimated age of the universe as viewed from our perspective back to the biblical perspective requires a compression of time by this million million factor. That compression, blue shifting is the jargon in astronomy, reduces the 14 to 15 billion year age as per NASA to approximately five and a half days. The days remain 24 hours each, as “the days of our work week” again to quote Nahmanides, but “contain all the days of the world.” And they do." Gerald Schroeder

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The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit · refresh) In recent communication with Dr Schroeder, he asked this response be given to the critics of his calculation that six days of creation as described in Genesis is approximately 14-15 billion years. "In calculating the age of the universe based on biblical data, Schroeder uses neither gravity nor velocity relativistic effects. The calculation, based totally on the expansion of space, a concept totally accepted in cosmology, in brief flows as follows. The Talmud (ca. the year 400) in the section HaGigah tells us that the six days of Genesis from the creation of the universe to the creation of Adam form a separate calendar from the time after Adam, the first human but not the first human-like being according to the Talmud, Maimonides (ca. 1190) and Nahmanides (ca. 1250). The Kabalist Nahmanides writes that his teachers taught that the numbering of each of the six days shows that for these six days, the perspective of time is seen from near the creation looking forward rather than back into history as we do. The numbering goes: day one, a 2nd day, a 3rd day etc. So why day one and not a first day he asks. And explains the Bible writes ‘day one’ because for its view, there had not yet been a 2nd day. That is the Bible for these days sees time looking forward from near the beginning. Then Nahmanides proceeds and expands. The clock of the Bible starts when stable matter forms from the energy of the creation. Time is created at the creation, Nahmanides writes, but the clock of the Bible starts only when stable matter forms. (“When matter forms, time grabs hold,” to use his wording). That moment is the energy level of protons. The ratio of the scale or the energy level or the temperature of space between then and now is nominally a million million according to astronomy text books. Projecting the estimated age of the universe as viewed from our perspective back to the biblical perspective requires a compression of time by this million million factor. That compression, blue shifting is the jargon in astronomy, reduces the 14 to 15 billion year age as per NASA to approximately five and a half days. The days remain 24 hours each, as “the days of our work week” again to quote Nahmanides, but “contain all the days of the world.” And they do." Gerald Schroeder

RK, could you provide a reference for that spat between Gerald and Aish. Please also email User:Joshuaschroeder to check whether this version is factually correct. JFW | T@lk 10:39, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) He is realted to AISH ,you can see so in their site.

Further mote ,can someone help em understand thec criticism aginst his claims ,what does it mean "choosing another moment" ,wasn't the moment of creation chosen as quark confinement ..? if I choose an infinity shorter time ,will I get infinty...? --Procrastinating@^talk2me 17:31, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

(Responding to above) I believe the criticism is that not all scientists agree that time should start with the moment of quark confinement (QC). Scientists could arbitrarily choose a moment before or after QC and say time started there. Schroeder's argument is that energy (which is all that existed before QC) is not believed by modern science to experience time, and that matter (which existed after QC) does experience time. Therefore, the moment matter first exists is a logical place for the beginning of time. He then extrapolates from other factors like wavelength distortion and such that the approximate age of the universe from the perspective of light (a universal constant) is 6 days (which corresponds to an age of ~15 billion years from the perspective of the Earth). All this information is gleaned from his book, "The Science of God". Hope that clears things up for you. :) (Posted 3:41 PM, 2 July 2006 (CST))

No, Not really. Maybe I'll have to wait for my PHD to really understand these things. He looses credibility on other grounds, so this ultratheoretical extrapulation is not that convincing.

Besides, Energy Does experience time. it oscilates, decay and convert. E=MCC, so what's the actual differnce here?

Furthermore, it seems like If one would to choose an infetisimalyl shorter/closer time, will get infenity. that is instaed of 6 days ,200 days or 200000 days. it seems like an arbitrary selection to conform to his predispositioned belief of biblical creation. see selection bias. If I am wrong, this is probably one of THE MOST PROFOUND scientific discoveries ever. Yet it doesn't seems like it..:)--Procrastinating@^talk2me 12:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey everyone. I noticed one of his criticisms is inaccurate, stating that he had the serious factual error of saying that velocity and kinetic energy are proportional. This would be a valid criticism if Kinetic Energy were not proportional to velocity. Since Kinetic Energy is proportional to velocity, this criticism is unfounded and false. I removed this error from page beforehand and for some reason this false criticism was reinstated. Now, I included next to the false claim, cited from the wikipedia source, why the criticism is invalid. I think this looks tacky and am curious as to when an official moderator or thorough cleanup can be done to preserve the intergrity of this article. I trust you all want this too. I hope that this will be taken care of. Thank you.

Proportionality has specific meaning in the language of mathematics. Please see the article on proportionality: Proportionality_(mathematics)

There are no sources for the claim that Schroeder had a professorial appointment at MIT, nor is there any source, other than Schroeder's website, that he worked for the AEC. This should be checked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.245.68.187 (talk) 01:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Right. In fact his website seems to claim only that he was "on the staff" at MIT. "Staff" is a word strictly distinguished from "faculty", which is what he would be with an academic appointment. It means he was employed as a technician, lab assistant, or something like that. If his middle name is Lawrence, then he obtained an MIT PhD in Geology in 1965. 202.45.98.133 03:03, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone with better Hebrew than mine can add biographical details from here: [1] 202.45.98.133 03:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from main page

This needs sourcing and needs to be less he-said she-said. I'm therefore moving it to the talk page:

• Masers fire atoms (not untrue, Hydrogen Masers fire hydrogen atoms)
• Kinetic energy is proportional to velocity ^{[citation needed]}. (Kinetic Energy is not mathematically proportional to velocity, as indicated in KE = (1 / 2)mv². Mathematical Proportionality implies that the ratio of the two proportional variables remains a constant. However, Schroeder may be using the Layman's meaning of the word proportionality, and not the mathematical definition (as indicated by an absence of mathematical calculations). If this is the case, it would be more appropriate for a physicist (who typically are also recognized mathematicians, which in this case he is not) to say "is a function of" or some variant. Although this may be unprofessional of Schroeder to use an ambiguous term, critics must acknowledge that this book is intended to be read by the layman and that error in Schroeder's work can only be pointed out in his logic and computations, not an overbearing critique of a physiscists literary ability to translate professional work into something readable by the layman. The probability that this is a literary error is emphasized in that this kinetic energy equation is very rudimentary, taught at the high school introductory level, and if Schroeder accepted that Kinetic Energy is indeed directly proportional to velocity, he could not have obtained a triple doctorate and become a physics professor at M.I.T.)
• Diffraction does not occur if the opening is larger than the wavelength
• Mass and weight are the same (he does not claim this, see Science of God p. 48)
• Heat may be diluted by expansion
• If someone tries to tell you that hf=mc^2 is absurd, don't listen to him. Just look at de Broglie's thesis at this link: http://www.ensmp.fr/aflb/LDB-oeuvres/De_Broglie_Kracklauer.pdf. Notice equation 1.1.5.
• Charles Darwin believed in the inheritance traits acquired through a single organism's life. ^{[citation needed]}

- JoshuaZ 03:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Schroeder's errors really are errors

• Schroeder said, "Here we use a maser, a gun that can fire one atom at a time." (Science of God, p.154) However, Masers do not fire atoms, not even a hydrogen maser. They fire microwaves. The hydrogen maser uses a stream of hydrogen atoms as part of its mechanism but does not release them. Machines that emit beams of coherent matter (i.e. atoms) are known as atomic lasers. Schroeder is wrong.
• Proportional means only one thing in physics and mathematics: that there is a constant ratio between two variables. At best one can say that to a lay person it just means that two things are mathematically related in some way, but Schroeder is writing as a physicist and the lay reader has a reasonable expectation that outright errors will not be disseminated in the service of simplification. Schroeder is wrong again.
• The fact that Schroeder has scientific qualifications does not mean that he cannot make mistakes, even fundamental ones. This is the Fallacy from Authority. And since the criticisms levelled against Schroeder come from Mark Perakh, who has vastly more impressive physics credentials than Schroeder (see Perakh's CV), then if one is going to commit the Fallacy from Authority, one would imagine that Perakh would be the better Authority to hang one's Fallacy on.
• Diffraction does indeed occur if the aperture is larger than the wavelength. Diffraction occurs at any aperture or edge.
• Perakh doesn't summarily dismiss Schroeder's use of the hf=mc² equation; he spends nine paragraphs explaining what is wrong with it. Equation 1.1.5 in de Broglie's thesis is only the first step in a derivation. This equation refers to a particle in its own rest frame, the next two steps of the derivation show how to apply that special-case equation generally by modifying it with the Lorentz transformation. When Schroeder uses de Broglie's equation, he is using the simplest form, one that only applies to a single reference frame (that of the electron itself), and does not apply to other reference frames. Schroeder really should have used equation 1.1.7, instead of equation 1.1.5 and Perakh gives an excellent demonstration of why Schroeder is in error here. De Broglie's thesis effectively rebuts Schroeder too, and that was written in 1925.
• Schroeder does say that mass and weight are the same thing. This is Schroeder's sentence from p. 40 of Genesis and the Big Bang: "The mass (or weight) of the object while at rest is called, in technical terms, its rest mass." The words "mass (or weight)" are repeated on page 37. As per Perakh, this can be ascribed to careless wording if one wants to be generous, but it is still an error -- and a repeated error at that.
• I don't believe that these errors need be dealt with exhaustively in the main article, especially as most of them are found in a single article by Perakh, but it is reasonable to list some of them briefly.

Clawxyz 13:34, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Schroeder's comments

Gerald Schroeder left a comment on the entry, which I deleted, but I will reproduce it here on the talk page:

This is Gerald Schroeder writing in an attempt to clarify some errors on the entry for me in Wikipedia. To date this is the first time I have ever written anything for Wikipedia. I do not know who listed my name as an entry for Wikipedia. My web site Geraldschroeder.com gives an accurate one page description of my professional background. I saw on one site here on Wikipedia that I was a professor at MIT. Not true. Who writes these things I do not have a clue. I earned my BSc MSc PhD all at MIT The Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Between my MSc and until after my PhD [prior to my moving to Israel in 1971] I remained in the MIT physics department as part of the research staff and as an advisor to physics thesis students. A fellow whom I do not know but who identifies himself as a "physicist" questioned my affiliation with the MIT physics department. The research for and the writing of my PhD was done entirely in the physics department although I maintained my connection with the Geology and geophysics department where part of my MSc was done. My doctorate was thus interdepartmental, with the thesis being signed by both departments, the physics professor signing being the renowned Robley D. Evans, of blessed memory. Thus my PhD is in two fields, physics and what is now termed earth science. The topic of my PhD theses was the diffusion of gases through semi-permeable media. For this I used radon as the tracer [an alpha emitter and so easy to trace] and uranium-rich sandstone as the semi-permeable medium, hence the title, "Effect of applied pressures on the radon characteristics of an underground mine environment". [Prof Evans had active connections with the uranium industry and so was able to arrange the location for my research.] All of my publications during and after my PhD while I was at MIT list my affiliation as the department of physics. Those journals include, among others, Science; Review of Scientific Instruments; Journal of Geophysical Research. I noted in one entry about my name that an invitation for me to lecture at a Torah and Science conference was awarded and then withdrawn. This is totally not true. Again, as I wrote above about the erroneous claim that I was a professor at MIT, I do not have a clue as to where these ideas arose. Also the descriptions of my approach to understanding the age of the universe or more explicitly the flow of time from the big bang creation to the appearance of the first homo sapiens sapiens with the soul of a human [[as based on Nahmanides commentaries [ca. 1250]] does not use the theory of relativity in any manner. It is totally based on the varied perspectives of time in an expanding universe. I hope this entry can help clarify mis-understandings that may have arisen from previous errors.

140.180.156.226 (talk) 04:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)