Talk:Geothermal heat pump
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[edit] Merge
First, it is clear that these are all (Geo-exchange, Geothermal Exchange Heat Pump, and Geothermal Heat Pump) about the same subject, so they clearly need to be integrated. Secondly, the best article is Geothermal Heat Pump. Geo-exchange article is minimal, each section is only one or two sentences. Plus the name is a sort of weird marketing term not universally used. Geothermal Exchange Heat Pump, well, for one thing, that term is not used by anyone, as confirmed by a google search. And for another, the article talks more about heat pumps in general, which is covered in the Heat Pump article. So that leaves Geothermal Heat Pump, which is the most common name as well as the best article.
I personally think Ground Source Heat Pump is the better, more precise name, but I will defer to industry lingo, in the name of compromise. Jaywilson —Preceding comment was added at 02:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I completely disagree. But that is because the overall title is misleading and technically incorrect. Ground Source Heat Pumps are NOT GEOTHERMAL. They are solar thermal systems as they utilise energy stored in the soil from the sun. A geothermal system utilises heat that results from friction in the core and mantle layers of the earth. A true geothermal system does not require the use of a heat pump as it will quite happily generate steam. Alankiff (talk) 16:12, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Geothermal heat is the very high heat used to produce electricity,and is not universally available. Geothermal heat does not come from friction in the core as the person above said, but results from radioactive decay and perhaps some friction in subduction zones. But the tectonic plate motion is driven by radioactivity. Lord Kelvin erroneously concluded that the age of the Earth was something like 30,000 years, because he did not know about radioactive decay. Geothermal sources are found in Iceland, New Zealand, the Salton Sea, and Italy to name a few, and are related to Hot spots, subduction zones, and spreading centers, and occassionaly transverse faults and shear zones. Ground or more precisely ground water resources used to cool and heat houses are not the highly saline, corrosive waters found in geothermal zones. Ground source, or geo-exchange heat can be used in any area. To use the term geothermal for this low temperature source is a total misnomer. I prefer ground source heat pump or geo-exchange heat pump, and just because an article is well written, but uses the incorrect term is no reason to continue using a misleading and incorrect term. Its bad enough that people think the lead in a pencil is the same material that plumbers used to use so frequently. Let's not start using geothermal when we mean a ground source heat pump or geo-exchange heat pump. user: Terry sayer (talk) 00:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)Terry.Sayer, 26 February 2008
I think that geothermal exchange heat pump should be merged into this article because they are the same thing. I think that the name of the merged article should be "geothermal heat pump" because it is far more commonly used than "geothermal exchange heat pump" and Wikipedia heavily favors the most common usage. In addition, the addition of "exchange" does not make the article's subject clearer or provide any other benefit. -- Kjkolb 10:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
However think that iot does somewhat relate to the topic and should be discussed also. I say this because Peyton Manning suggested a theory that linked the two together.
I fully agree that they should be merged with discussion. Also there is an important discussion to be had about the word 'GeoExchange(tm)' which is used in Canada and I think is where the confusion over 'geothermal exchange' comes from. Any revision should include all the terms most commmonly used and synonyms.
I agree they should be merged as they are both explaining the same thing. A common term for geothermal heat pump in europe is Ground Source Heat Pump (GSHP) this should link to it as well (it currently links to geothermal exchange heat pump). Lkleinjans 19:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I also agree that all four pages regarding ground source heat pumps should be 'merged' into one article. This, I would be tempted to suggest, will not require an insignificant amount of editing. Bewp 16:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
When you say all four, do you mean including Geothermal heating? If so, I disagree, as in some places, e.g. Iceland, it is possible to get heating from a geothermal source without a heat pump. But I do agree as far as geothermal heat pump, geothermal exchange HP, and geo-exchange. Is there a way we can create a temporary page on which to work on the merged version, before actually getting rid of the others?Ccrrccrr 03:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I also think that a merger with geothermal exchange heat pump would be a good idea, but that Geothermal heating is a quite separate topic. However I am conscious that as with quite a number of other pages relating to domestic heating and cooling, we are suffering from a difference in practice between North America and Europe (or, specifically, the UK as the main English-speaking bit of Europe). UK practice varies somewhat, and almost invariably uses the name Ground Source Heat Pump. Ideally, I would like to see quite distinct pages for the UK and US practice, using quite different names, but with a cross-reference between the two. (I write this in a personal capacity, but as an employee of the body that provides the secretariat to the UK Ground Source Heat Pump Association, the main trade body for GSHPs in the UK.) Petrolmaps (talk) 15:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Let's just get this done! Since they would all link to each other, should not be a problem. As for the fact that it is called geothermal and its inaccuracy, this can be explained in the text - if that's what people call it, even if inaccurate, it should be covered.--Gregalton (talk) 07:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Rewrite
I do not agree with merging the above two b/c these three:
are all inaccurate and should be used to strengthen Geo-exchange which more precisely explains the topic. ~ bcoste1 3May'07
To follow the Wikipedia policy on most common usage, "geothermal heat pumps" or "ground source heat pumps" are most commonly used to describe devices for the extraction or buriel of heat in the Earth's crust. The introduction to this artile could be entitled "Geothermal exchange" to expalin the basic physics involved. Bewp 16:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- I actually think the the present geo-exchange article is the worst of the present articles. In any case, the various names should be discussed in the article. Some argue the ground-source heat pump is the most technically clear and accurate description, although geothermal heat pump is becoming a more common name in the US.Ccrrccrr 03:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Latitude considerations
When I inquired about geothermal HVAC in west central Florida (US) I was told that it was not used in this area because the ground is not as cold as further north. This made little sense to me, despite being uttered by multiple HVAC companies. However, If they are correct, perhaps some mention of latitude considerations should be included in this article. PhiDeck 18:19, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Lots of Errors
User PhiDeck makes a good point. The article presently states "These systems operate on a very simple premise; the ground, below the frost line, stays at approximately 50 °F (10 °C) year round". First of all, many places don't even have a frost line. For the U.S., see this map: http://www.usace.army.mil/usace-docs/eng-manuals/em1110-1-1905/c-2.pdf#search='frost%20depth' Second, deep earth temperature varies by location. 50 °F places whoever wrote this pretty far north -- Detroit, Michigan, perhaps. But in Atlanta for example the deep earth temperature is more like 65 °F. In South Texas it is around 80 °F. The reason geothermal heat pumps are more efficient than air source heat pumps is because in general, deep earth temperature is warmer than outdoor air when heating is needed, and cooler than outdoor air when cooling is required.
Pelkabo 19:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused about the third paragraph, which reads:
"This article focuses on geothermal heat pumps that use water to exchange heat with the ground, often referred to as "water-source geothermal heat pumps" or "water loop geothermal heat pumps."....
I thought water-source heat pumps use heat from a water source, such as lakes, ponds or underground rivers, rather than using water to circulate the heat, as this implies. See http://www.teainc.org/glossary_wxyz.html. Could this be clarified / corrected? (Shannonagain (talk) 14:11, 3 April 2008 (UTC))
[edit] Remove Geothermal exchange heat pump
I think that Geothermal heat pump and Geothermal exchange heat pump are almost exactly the same. I think that we should just remove Geothermal exchange heat pump because it is very inferior compared to Geothermal heat pump.
Drkshadowmaster 04:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. These are redundant and Geothermal heat pump is the best title.
Duncn3 02:44, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. Geothermal exchange heat pump is the page that most closely reflects UK (European practice), and although it is shorter with fewer illustrations, this is not necessarily a bad thing! It's not inferior, just different. For example, UK standard practice would not support the closed loop fields as illustrated; guidance here suggests a minimum spacing between collector coils that clearly is at odds with the photographs. Likewise, most of the statistics on Geothermal heat pump relate to the US; again this is not a bad thing per se, but it does underline my comment in the Merge section about needing a clear distinction between the two regions in this case. Does this run against any Wikipedia guidelines? Petrolmaps (talk) 15:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about WP guidelines, but I don't like the idea of separate pages. I think it would be much more useful to readers in both regions to have one article, clearly highlighting the differences in practice in both regions. It may take some work to get to that point.
- Let's try to separate two issues: one is what article title(s) we should use. Then the next is what content should go under that title. If nobody is lobbying for as a better title than the others, we should definitely not use that as an article title. But that needn't mean we delete the content--we can more that content to section of this article, titled UK Practice perhaps, or better, merge the content in, and include notes on UK vs. NA practice where needed. Petrolmaps, if we go with your plan of having two articles (which I don't support), I don't think you'd be arguing that Geothermal exchange heat pump is the best name for the UK-oriented article--wouldn't you argue for the title being Ground source heat pump? If we can agree to get rid of the title Geothermal exchange..., then we can proceed to decide what to do with its content.Ccrrccrr (talk) 22:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Personally I don't care about the title, although I tend to think shorter is better; if it were up to me I'd merge them into Geothermal heat pump for that reason alone. I would also prefer to see "Geothermal" stay in the title. What I think is more important is that they be merged into one article. I suspect that lots of the regionally specific information is not necessary, and could be removed (which would be easier to tell if it were all in one place). When that information is encyclopedic, it could be clearly marked by the appropriate region (there are certainly more than two, not just US vs. UK); that's a frequent pattern about Wikipedia that may make sense here. I'd like to see all three articles (Geo-exchange being the third) be merged into one. This one is my preference, but again, it's more important to me to see one article emerge. --Ahc (talk) 23:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
One reason geo-exchange heat pumps are more efficient that air exchangers is because of the high heat capacity of water. Ground water temperature remains more uniform seasonally and does not get as cold as the air in northern climes nor as hot as the air in southern climes. Terry sayer (talk) 00:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)Terry.sayer
[edit] Cleanup of references/links
I see some edits that need to be made and don't want to make a mess of it because I'm a n00b. Someone want to show me?
The three bulleted lists under "Characteristics" are tagged "citation needed." They are lifted verbatim from the PDF referenced under "External Links" as "GeoExchange Heating and Cooling Systems: Fascinating Facts." Is this fair use?
Does this call for a single footnote reference or three separate ones? Does the external link stay in "External Links" or does the link become redundant once the PDF is cited in "References"? Does this count as a "verifiable" source, or do you have to actually know anything about the organization making these claims?
Note that a lot of the figures are cited incorrectly, e.g. he uses gigawatt-hours instead of kilowatt-hours! Ha! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Universe Man (talk • contribs) 18:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] DNR?
Who's the DNR? A state agency? Ccrrccrr (talk) 02:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Extra part added
This extra part was added:
- Geothermal heat pumps in combination with cold/heat storage
- is used extensively for applications as the heating of greenhouses.[1] In summer, the greenhouse is cooled with ground water, pumped from a aquifer, which is the cold source. This heats the water. the water is then stored by the system in a warm source. In winter, the relative warm water is again pumped up, which derives heat. The now cooled water is again stored in the cold source.[2][3] The combination of cold and heat storage with heat pumps can be very intresting for greenhouses as it may be combined with water/humidity application. This obviously is a great advantage for greenhouses. In the (closed circuit) system, the water used as a storage medium for heat is done in a 1st aquifer, while the cold water is held in a 2nd aquifer. The heat and cold stored in the water mass is when needed spread as hot or cold air trough the use of fans. [4] In the described system, everything can be automated (eg with the systems as those from HortiMax or other suppliers [5]
Please do not remove; if need to be altered, do so here and reupload info Thanks.
Note: extra references added for claims not yet fully described in article: [6] [7] [8] KVDP (talk) 15:01, 7 April 2008 (UTC) KVDP (talk) 14:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
- I removed part of the last sentence and the reference to a nn website not meeting WP:RS. I made the edit before I saw this section, but I'm not sure why you want to make edits here to a section that's already in the mainspace. Flowanda | Talk 21:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] picture added
One picture was added, hope its not removed:
