Talk:Georges Ernest Boulanger

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This encyclopedic entry about Georges Boulanger, the French military general who turned into an influential politician in the 1880’s, has its strengths and weaknesses. Within the article, it is asserted by the author that influence of Boulanger upon France was positive, or at the very least not entirely negative. The list of accomplishments and awards won by Boulanger at the beginning makes the reader attribute a fair amount of prestige and respect to the French general. Later in the article, despite Boulanger’s involvement with intrigue and deception, the scandals are described as “brief” and “minor” in importance. His intricately described popularity amongst the French people is an example of the author asserting that while Boulanger may have been a controversial figure, his presence in France was not entirely negative.

First of all, this article does not have a single author - it has two or more. It has me as the one to have contributed most, but I have done so only by translating what's on the French version. What I did was to join new text with existing one, and the sentences you object to most, I'm glad to say, were there to begin with. Dahn 15:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I certainly don't think Boulanger's role was positive! I don't think the author of the French article thinks that, since I had to remove some partisan sentences in what I was translating. Please, don't assume. I translated that bit about his early life because all wiki articles I've seen give such detail: can I help it if he had won something or taken part in something else? Plus, you must really be fond of colonialism, if you consider his role to have been necessarily "positive" (in Vietnam or Tunis) - it was as good or as wrong as the French attitutes at the time, and he briefly stood for all the wrong ones (if you ask me).Dahn 15:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The major implicit assumption that the author makes in this article is that while Boulanger’s actual political power was small and his will weak, his significant historical imprint can be seen on France’s political landscape and popular mindset. Only after extensively explaining the rise of the boulangisme and the changes they tried to implement within French society is the fact that Boulanger and his boulangistes were a minority in the French Chamber of Deputies dealt with.

Again, this is because of this article being about him. You assume that, since sentences were assigned an order, that order must have been trying to induce something. Dahn 15:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, the movement was a minority at a national level some months after it came about, and had probably ammessed popularity to an even higher level after the elections. Dahn 17:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The popular image of Boulanger upon his black horse was the “idol of the Parisian population” and his extensive following amongst many types of political factions are facts cited by the author that highlight Boulanger’s importance despite some of his shortcomings.

The sentence was already in there. I wanted to remove it, as it is a tad to lyrical, but then I thought someone else would if is that illogical. Dahn 15:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

This implicit belief held by the author makes the most convincing subject presented within this article the popularity of Boulanger. Stories of the masses preventing his departure from Paris, being wooed by multiple constituencies at once, and strong electoral support despite being unable to legally run for office are influential in citing the fame of Boulanger.

Surely, he must have had some kind of fame since that has happened! I'm not gonna say: hey, look, that must meant that the fella wasn't that bad! Simply because I don't think fame is legitimacy, and I'm guessing neither did the author of the original version! Again, you assume a lot, and what I could assume on the basis of it is that you consider others idiots who could be easily impressed and are too gregarious to be objective. At best, mention of his popularity goes hand in hand with the hybrid nature of his dogma - and I belive his personal mix is made clear throughout the article. Dahn 15:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there are several things about this article that could be improved upon. The weakly supported assertion made at the very end of the entry concerning the link between boulangisme and Fascism is among the first things that need to be addressed. It seems like the author was trying to lend legitimacy to his article by bringing in the ideas of an historian, yet he left this thought unsupported and naked without any explanation beyond a simple mention. Had even one more sentence been used to clarify what Sternhell meant in linking boulangisme and Fascism, it would leave the reader with a better final impression of the entry. Citation of sources used in the writing of this article would also help to strengthen the content of this article.

Look, I couldn't cite the exact source, as I hadn't read the book. But we have this thing on wikipedia: inter-wiki links, whereby a word turns blue and clicking it leads to the article on the topic. Plus, to my knowledge, the book isn't about Boulanger as much as it is about the rise of Fascism. Even though I haven't read the book, I know a bit on the subject: that's precisely why I wanted to keep mention of this brief. Consider the mention of Action Française/Cercle Proudhon in the article. Should I really expand on what that is, when people can just click on the name and get a full article dealing with it in way more detail than this article could and should? Dahn 17:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Many quotes uttered by contemporaries of Boulanger help to illustrate what was thought of him, and while the inclusion of primary information is always desirable, it would be nice to know where the bulk of this information came from. The External Links section is probably very interesting reading for anyone who desires read about Boulanger, but neither I nor many people who may want to learn more speak or read French, which makes further enlightenment difficult. A simple bibliography would help to fix this problem concerning the sources used for this article.

First of all, you can't blame me or anyone in particular for further information not existing in English. The quotes where tranlsted from the French section. I know, the French have this stupid habit of considering quotes to not need mention of a source - if it helps, I personally have heard the Ferry and Clemenceau ones in numerous contexts. Dahn 15:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Other notable things about this document include the need to clean up some of the grammar and wording used. In the Minister section parentheses are left open and some words, such as hastily, are misspelled.

Blame them mostly on me being myopic (and not a native English-speaker). Please, hunt my grammar down and improve it, by all means. Dahn 15:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The most awkward sentence within the article is the third sentence under the Scandal heading, which comes at an inopportune time because it is Boulanger’s downfall that stands as one of the most interesting things about him.

It was in there before I started adding text. I simply took all info available and put it in one place: unfortunately, nothing seemed to make things clearer about the events themselves. I also dislike the speculative nature of it, but I thought someone with more knowledge might reformulate it (this is a major problem: I knew enough to know some things needed reformulation, but not enough to know what to formulate instead). Dahn 15:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

As mentioned before, inclusion of English external links would also improve this encyclopedic entry.

I have found none whatsoever. Dahn 15:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I would also like to know more about the duel that Boulanger lost to an elderly man, an occurrence that is shocking for an accomplished military man.

Me too, but the only reference to the outcome of the duel was in this article already, as far as I remember. Again, use inter-wiki: Floquet has an article, and it does say a bit more. Dahn 15:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Knowing what exactly made Boulanger a weak orator would be beneficial as well, because it is unusual to see such an important public figure that struggles in communicating their ideas.

The mention seemed subjective to me, but I left in the article: I thought perhaps someone knows why, and could enlighten us. Dahn 15:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Finally, a more extensive explanation or analysis of why Boulanger balked at the height of his influence in Paris would also be nice. The different ideas expressed by historians knowledgeable about the events would be a very nice inclusion. Overall, this is a very informative and impressive article about Georges Boulanger, although some minor improvements could be made to make it even more extraordinary. CRog 09:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the appreciation. I agree that a lot needs to be done on this article - but I think I have helped people who could do more for it: at the very least, because replacing and rephrasing in an existing text is easier than writing a new one. Dahn 15:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarism

This article appears to borrow some sentences directly from the Columbia Encyclopedia article on Boulanger[1], such as "Numerous royalists gave him financial aid, although Boulanger saw himself as a future dictator rather than a restorer of kings". Algabal 23:09, 25 March 2007 (UTC)