Talk:George W. Bush/Archive 17.6

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

See:

George W. Bush

Talk:George W. Bush/Archive 17

Talk:George W. Bush/Archive 17.5

Talk:George W. Bush/Archive 17.7

Contents

Objectivity?

Neither "positive" or "negative" facts belong in an encyclopedia.

Also, Taking a statement like "Bush is a fool, a charlatan and a criminal"... and changing it to "X said that `Bush is a fool, a charlatan and a criminal'"

is an extremely transparent and futile attempt to make such statements seem neutral.

80% of this article has a hopelessly transparent political bias.

An encyclopedia should only contained generally accepted information that everybody agrees is true, not a debate.

This page needs peer review... if there's any hope for Wikipedia at all.

I second that. The article is approached with one goal by major contributors and that is to cast Bush in a bad light. It is not a NPOV article by any measure of the imagination. We need to be careful with the wording of positive and negative facts...if they are facts, then they belong...but these facts are based on concrete evidence and without any major skeptical sourcing or innuendo. There is no doubt in my mind when some of the people that have reverted my edits claim to be to the far left politically...."left of scary leftists", "hostile to the right", or display a Soviet Union Hammer and Sickle medal on their user page (as if that is something to be pround of in light of what it was like to be in the Soviet union in the 1930's for the average citizen) etc., etc. that those that wish to continue to leave this work as the benchmark are doing so to push their opinion and that opinion is to slander Bush from a left wing perspective, not to educate based on the provable evidence.--MONGO 16:06, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, I added this to illustrate what a piece of junk this entire article is: "Eric Alterman, some political columnist that I just googled off the web 3 minutes ago, said in The Nation (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20021125&s=alterman) that "Bush is a liar".

A friend of mine once said that Bush was mentally retarded. He based this view on listening to Bush's speeches - particularly his use of poor grammar. He hasn't written an opinion piece for any newspapers, but he's probably a lot smarter than whoever the hell Katherine van Wormer is."

Ironically, I don't even *like* Bush - but I have some idea about what sort of material belongs in an Encyclopedia and what doesn't. I shouldn't have bothered but, hey, it's a Sunday and I'm bored.

This page demonstrates everything that is wrong with Wikipedia. Heading back to the mathematics section which at least isn't full of raving mis-guided lunatics. - anonymous (guy who made a good-faith effort to improve this article the first time around anyway)

The statement that 'Neither "positive" or "negative" facts belong in an encyclopedia.' is mystifying. It seems to imply that an undisputed fact shouldn't be reported if it would tend to put Bush in a good light or a bad light. That wouldn't leave very much.
Also wrong is the claim that attributing a controversial opinion "is an extremely transparent and futile attempt to make such statements seem neutral." It is neutral to report someone's stated opinion. This is Wikipedia's general policy, not the product of a cabal of Bolsheviks who are out to undermine Bush. Here's an excerpt from the policy:
Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts and only facts. Where we might want to state opinions, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone. . . . (It's often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.)
The foregoing is from Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#A simple formulation. If you disagree with the policy, you should take it up on Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view instead of trying to make Bush a special case who's immune from any report of the criticisms he's received.
Finally, with regard to "peer review", Wikipedia will never have peer review in the sense used in academia. I do note, however, that MONGO's attempt to suppress anything unflattering to Bush included this edit, in which, among other significant deletions, he removed not only the comparison of Bush's fiscal record with Clinton's, but also the news reports stating the undisputed amounts of Bush's deficits, and the open letter from more than 100 professors of business and economics ascribing the deficits to Bush's tax cuts. Indeed, in the MONGO "encyclopedic edit", the very fact that Bush had run a deficit was omitted. It's hardly encyclopedic to conceal from the reader all information about one of the most aspects of Bush's presidency. JamesMLane 00:43, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I liked that edit, and would have edited out more but sensed that it was foolish to engage in edit wars, so I decided to hash it out in discussion. Truthfully, being new to editing, I mistakenly took out more than I thought I had. Repeatedly, I have stated that I feel that this article is a vehicle of exercise in how not to write an encyclopedic NPOV article, and have stated that I expect that this article if any would be filled with POV, both left and right wing. I doubt that the major contributors to this are anything other than very intelligent people, but am mystified at their choice of quotes and quality of evidence. A large portion of this article reads like a left wing slam fest, not as a NPOV article. I have also stated that what appears to be the hawks that watch over this page have openly stated in their user pages and in other written form that they come from a far left perspective on the matter and are therefore incapable of remaining neutral, especially in this situation.--MONGO 08:31, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The underlying issue here isn't a left-versus-right divide. The underlying issue is how to handle controversial subjects in general. Wikipedia policy, applicable to many, many controversial articles that have nothing to do with George W. Bush, is not to exclude statements of opinion, as you seem to think it is or should be. Instead, the policy is that opinions, when held by large numbers of people or prominent spokespersons or qualified experts, can be reported, if properly attributed, and if presented in a way that does not give an appearance of Wikipedia's endorsement. (For example, I've frequently edited statements along the lines of "So-and-so pointed out that...." because "pointed out" suggests that it's true. "So-and-so argued that...." is preferable.) Certainly a different policy could be formulated and logically defended. Unless and until some other general policy is adopted, however, we should treat Bush the same way we treat other controversial people or topics. JamesMLane 08:45, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Really? What about Bush is controversial? I mean isn't he universally liked...what with the "Mandate" he has! But here's the thing, if known left leaning periodicals and other forms of reporting which use sensationalist forms of editing suffice to be considered good sources for this forum, then why not the National Enquirer...why not Rush Limbaugh??? I mean I could reluctantly go into Rush and find all sorts of grandstanding about Bush...but I consider his opinion to be right wing, not NPOV. I dunno, it still looks to me like this thing is hopelessly POV. Also liked the editor (silsor) linking me into the boilerplate complaints page...saw that yesterday...but then he took out the link from there back to here...I thought I was almost famous! infamous?--MONGO 09:08, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Trying to get some clarification here -- Do you disagree with current Wikipedia policy on NPOV? Do you disagree that that policy, as applied to someone like Bush, calls for reporting opinions about him, even leftist opinions, even opinions with which you disagree? Do you take both these positions? Or do you take neither, and your objection is on some other grounds? I keep getting the feeling that you think Bush should be given the benefit of a different set of rules from what's applied to all our other controversial articles, but perhaps I'm misinterpreting you.
Incidentally, if the National Enquirer reports that Bush is actually a reptilian kitten-eating space alien, that comment would not merit inclusion in the article under current Wikipedia policy. JamesMLane 10:17, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Addendum: Lest anyone think that my hypothetical example means that I've been using a few controlled substances myself, let me add that I didn't make it up. It comes from our friends to the north. See Evil reptilian kitten-eater from another planet. JamesMLane 10:48, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, that is my point isn't it? If the sourcing for your version of encyclopedic citation is as it is then why not include all subversive horseradish on the guy even if it is about Bush being a reptillian kitten eater from another planet. Is it really postulated that books that are pulled from shelves, vague little known social workers with obscure opinions cited in vague obscure sensationalist POV magazines and other sources of what you refer to as creditable witness should be included in this article, then why not the National Enquirer...or Rush Limbaugh? I understand that Rush Limbaugh has a large following on the air and on line...so certainly his right leaning bias should be admissible, that is if your left leaning mumbo jumbo is. I look through the John Kerry article and I consider it to be much reduced in POV...much more neutral...there still is the supposed controversy over his military service etc., but the article isn't some effort to be a slam fest by either the right or the left wing political factions. The leftist bias in this rag are as plain as the nose on your face! I think some are so caught up in vilifying Bush that they can't get around their hatred of him enough to ever be neutral.--MONGO 11:53, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I believe that the coverage of Kerry and the coverage of Bush (both in multiple articles) are largely in keeping with Wikipedia policy. I say "largely" because if I looked over all those articles in detail, I'd probably find something that could usefully be edited for greater compliance with policy, but after months of being haggled over by editors of varying political views, the articles show no great deviations from policy. JamesMLane 12:41, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)


":I believe that the coverage of Kerry and the coverage of Bush (both in multiple articles) are largely in keeping with Wikipedia policy. "

OK - that's your opinion. A lot of people (including myself) strongly disagree with you. That makes this material controversial, and this article, as it states at the top, is already way too long and difficult to navigate. A compromise that has already been suggested is to place this stuff in a separate "Bush drug controversy" article. People could then still debate the accuracy/relevancy/objectivity of including the claims there.

In a normal Encyclopedia, the editor retains control of the content. That can be bad, if she is biased, but at least her name goes on the article. Everyone knows who she is, and history can judge what she wrote and whether she was a true scholar or not.

In Wikipedia, it is only those who are willing and able to tirelessly revert/change edits that keep control of the content. This won't be the smartest, or most knowledgeable people. It will be those with enough time to sit and monitor a page day-in, day-out. IMO, that's going to rule out the people most qualified to write the article.

Even better! It has already occurred to the conspiracy theorist in me that if a political party really cared enough about the content of this site, they could *pay* someone to watch and edit pages like this. i.e. the highest bidder can effectively buy what is written on Wikipedia, just by paying some individual (or group of individuals) to "watch"/"revert" it continuously.

Worse, because this editing can be done anonymously, no-one can even allege/prove that it is happening (unlike normal political advertising).

Perform a google search for "George W Bush" and this Wikipedia article makes it on the first page. That's got to be worth some votes, if the page says what you want it to say.

Right now I'm not getting paid, but if you can persuade the Democratic National Committee to come up with the dough, I'll cut you in for a 10% finder's fee. JamesMLane 01:07, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Now that is scary...and it brings up my point made before and that is that when you run a search off almost any browser for George Bush, this article comes up in one to five links. I doubt the conspiracy theory, but it's as possible as thinking that this van Wormer fool who has never had a one on one personally with Bush should be able to be considered a creditable witness regardless of her level of expertise on the issue of who is and who isn't a DRY DRUNK. Her innuendo of slurred speech...expert opinion...hogwash. But there is a lot more...I can hardly wait for her expert opinion...[1]. Who would buy the books people like her sell if they weren't full of their "expert" opinion. If someone can cite any known clinical proof based on an actual medical and or psychological evaluation and diagnosis from a person to person examination of George Bush and which shows validity to the argument that Bush is a Dry Drunk, then by all means, it should be in here...but to quote some person who has never met with Bush in a patient/doctor scenario is tantamount to pushing a POV.--MONGO 12:37, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Subpage for drug use allegations

The parties in this dispute seem to be on a path that usually leads deep into the dispute resolution process. Have they considered taking the same approach that was done with the national guard allegations, and moving the details to George W. Bush drug controversy, or something similar? Gazpacho 10:18, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A move like that is appropriate for topics that are accumulating so much detail that they overwhelm the article. I don't think that's the case here. Furthermore, even when a lot of the detail on such a topic is moved to a daughter article, it's appropriate to leave a summary in the main article, as is done for both Bush and Kerry with the allegations about their military service. Yet, in this case, we've seen repeated attempts to delete even the very terse summary of the Bush military service allegations. The underlying dispute isn't over the level of detail in the passages about drug use; it's about whether the information should be completely suppressed. Therefore, I don't think that creation of a daughter article would help. As long as anyone keeps trying to suppress the subject, the dispute will go on. JamesMLane 10:33, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

My argument is over the entire article. It is over the content, the dubious quality of the evidence, and the use of verbage. I suggested before that the entire area of discussion in regards to his drinking, drugs and other related weaknesses be placed on another page, and there the user can decide. But for the bulk of this article much would still need to be done to make it neutral. I say let the reader be enlightened and educated with FACTS...not by opinions which can be construed as facts by the less articulate.--MONGO 12:09, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It looks like you're losing your right wing propaganda censorship war, Mongo. Propose and/or create separate pages for any positive facts as well as negative facts, and you probably wouldn't have any problem with anyone other than the vandalizing idiots. This page and this talk page is getting way too big. --Karmafist 02:02, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Right wing propaganda censorship war? Hardly. If you are leftist enough to think that I have ever deliberately edited out any substantive negative facts then there is no hope for you. I say the major contributors that hawk over this page come here with a predisposition to use much less than credible reporting and then attempt to pass it off as encyclopedic. The reason this article is too long is because of all the mish mash. I haven't made continuous editing to his oil deals, his Texas Rangers profiteering, the argument that he lied essentially about why we needed to wage war in Iraq...once again, I have stated that the innuendo of his cocaine use, the dry drunk garbage and all that other stuff takes up 80 percent of the section on his personal life section. I think folks like you just want to use this medium as a way to lampoon Bush, not as a way to educate.--MONGO 11:46, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well here's one of your edits: [2]. You edited out quite a lot of good reporting of the various negative opinions, rumors and whatnot that Bush has tended to accrue. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 14:49, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I do think you have deliberately edited out substative negative facts, and there is hope for me, regardless of what your censor-happy extremist opinion is.

And if you don't realize by now that his reason for going to war with Iraq (Weapons of Mass Destruction) was a lie, then i'm sorry MONGO, but there is no hope for you.

--Karmafist 20:05, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Wow, what a revelation you bring, Karmafist...is that possible? Is it possible that we went to war with Iraq due to a lie...or maybe it was to finish what Daddy couldn't...or maybe it was purely due to oil...oh, yeah, so Halliburton could reap a big windfall...sure, it's possible that Bush has killed thousands just because of his vanity. Let's agree to disagree. As far as editing, Tony, I see that the vast bulk of your arguement is based on sensationalist POV reporting from known left wing sources.--MONGO 20:57, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cocaine allegations

Gazpacho, I think your edit omits too much. To Bush supporters, it's important to note that Hatfield had a felony conviction and that his original publisher withdrew the book. To Bush detractors, it's important to note that Bush said he had no drug use in the 15 years preceding 1989 but refused to answer as to the period before 1974. I do agree with you about the anonymous email as a source, and I've tried to clarify that the email was contradicted when journalists checked with the very contact suggested in the email. Also, in looking into this, I found that our article copied too much verbatim from Salon, so I reworded some passages. I also put in more sources. You removed the link to Bush's characterization of Hatfield's book as "totally ridiculous", but I think that, on a controversial subject, it's especially important to cite sources. JamesMLane 11:59, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)


Hunting.

What's his view on hunting?

--Relaxation 17:42, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Eliminate Opinion Pieces Section

I noticed that opinion pieces were briefly discussed above. However, I don't believe a consensus was reached on whether this section should be kept or what links should be included. I'm raising the questions again after I noticed that the "Against Bush" links outnumber the "For Bush" links 6 to 1. All of the links (on both sides) are extremely partisan (as would be expected) and add very little, if anything, to the article. I propose that this section be eliminated. I don't believe this section serves any purpose other than to give biased users a chance to insert POV links into the article. Carrp 20:30, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No one is stopping anyone from adding "For Bush" links. And the whole purpose of opinions is a POV -- these viewpoints on this extremely contreversial president add to the depth of this article. However, it would be good if made some more spinoff articles.

--Karmafist 20:47, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I noticed that you added the three most recent links (in one edit [3]). How exactly do those links "add to the depth of this article". What spinoff articles would you like to see? I just don't see these links adding anything except POV. Carrp 20:55, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Carrp in that this could easily turn into an extremely large section mostly comprised of editorials which simply state what many other articles have said. I think we should put a cap to this (like 10-12), split it down the middle both pro- and con-, and select only the best articles which are not redundant and add more to the discussion or at the very least make us use our head rather than pull at our emotions.--kizzle 23:41, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Don't rationalize with him...he is only here to push a leftwing bunch of rubbage...I don't think Bush is extremely controversial...only those that are extremist to the left would label him as such.--MONGO 21:10, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Assume good faith Mongo...basic wikipedia etiquette.--kizzle 23:41, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)
Apparently, by MONGO's definition, 48% of the American voters are "extremist to the left", along with majorities of the adults in many of our longtime democratic allies.
Putting aside that indefensible view, the fact remains that there are a lot of websites about Bush. There are supporters and opponents, but opponents are probably more strongly motivated to put up a website. We don't want to try to list them all or any appreciable fraction. Wikipedia articles aren't "[m]ere collections of external links." ([Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files|Wikipedia is not...]]) The question of when to add external links hasn't been definitively settled within the community (see Wikipedia:External links and other pages cited therein). The question is particularly problematic in a case like this one, with so many links out there clamoring for attention. My inclination would be: (1) A particular external site that's a source for an assertion in the article should be linked at that point in the article, and needn't be repeated in "External links". (2) External sites that focus on particular issues might more usefully be linked in the appropriate daughter article rather than here. (3) There might be some particular value in linking to sites that are frequently updated. If a site's main value is static information, we could just steal (uh, pardon me, incorporate) the information rather than linking to the site. (4) Some people get touchy about links, so, as a practical matter, I usually wimp out and refrain from removing links, even when I think the linkomania is getting excessive. In this particular case, I haven't looked at the "Opinion Pieces" links. MONGO, if you want to add more pro-Bush links, I'll probably think the whole exercise is getting out of hand, but I also probably won't bother deleting. (5) This might be an appropriate subject for posting on RfC if anyone feels strongly enough about it. I suspect there are several people who have no interest in the Bush article but who would jump in to present their strongly held opinions about when we should or should not include an external link. JamesMLane 05:12, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No I said that those pushing the leftist bias of this article are extremist to the left. I suggest that many others here need to assume good faith and put it into practice by making some attempt at transforming this article into a neutral one. I could hardly agree that there is a conspiracy here to present a left leaning viewpoint and I anticipate that many of the folks here are from academia (which has a natural liberal tilt, no insult intended)or are not in favor of presenting a neutral article because they do not agree with Bush's policies, his actions or his deeds. That is fine, but if they can't let go of this bias, then they shouldn't contribute here if they expect this article to ever be neutral. I have been accused repeatedly of removing ALL bad information in the article and that is simply false. What makes you think that all those that voted for John Kerry did so because they believe that Bush is controversial? Perhaps they voted against Bush more than for Kerry...in that they oppose the current Iraq war and are dissatisfied with the economy, etc. You stated: "there are a lot of websites about Bush. There are supporters and opponents, but opponents are probably more strongly motivated to put up a website." So in essence you answered my premise that the major contributors here are, in all liklihood, opponents of Bush. If you look for answers to support your premise then you'll probably find them. If you come here with a predispostion against someone or something, then in all liklihood, that will be produced in the evidence you gather. I say get rid of the opinion pieces...they are opinion and have no reason to be here.--MONGO 09:47, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Given that millions of Americans wanted to remove Bush from office, and given that millions of Europeans and others consider him a graver threat to world peace than Osama bin Laden, it's incomprehensible to me that anyone could suggest he's not controversial. Heck, I voted for Kerry, and I'd have no problem saying that Kerry is also a controversial figure. With regard to the websites, I don't understand your comments. I wasn't suggesting that we should do a headcount of all the sites out there and tailor our coverage accordingly. The point that you keep missing, though, is that a certain amount of reporting of POV's is within the NPOV policy. You repeatedly delete specific, duly attributed opinions, and you make general comments that suggest you don't understand the NPOV policy or you don't want to apply it to Bush. External links to opinionated websites can help illuminate specific points in the article. The tough question is the kind of general external link we find in "Opinion pieces", not cited in support of any specific assertion. To say that opinions "have no reason to be here" goes too far, though. JamesMLane 10:05, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Incidentally, MONGO, I find your latest edit interesting. You removed all the opinion pieces, which were clearly labeled as opinions. You had no problem, however, with the recently added passage that stated -- without attribution, without a reference, but simply as a flat Wikipedia assertion -- that the Afghan elections "were a huge success". Should I infer that you didn't happen to notice it? Or do you consider that an expression of opinion of that sort is justified? I return again to the idea of treating this article according to generally applicable policies, rather than giving Bush his own special rules, so I'm deleting that and related passages that clearly violate NPOV. JamesMLane 10:42, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You should infer that I didn't happen to notice it. I removed the opinion pieces because they are , uh, opinions. Who cares about someone's opinions. I continue to say the opinion pieces should be removed. I don't know that the Afgan elections were a huge success. But I can say that since elections were held, and though they may have been seriously flawed in comparison to what us lucky westerners get to enjoy, they were still a step in the right direction. I bet some here wish democracy in Afganistan and Iraq would fail, just so you could enjoy the opportunity to see the policies of the current administration also as failures. I also remember quite vividly when Reagan was President and how all the leftist said he was leading us down a path towards nuclear war and how he was a threat to world peace. Time will tell.--MONGO 12:18, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I stated before that the purpose of an opinion pieces section would ideally be to have a few select external links for each point of view that are well-chosen in that they are referenced, cogent and defensible. I believe the value in this is to provide for greater understanding about the various viewpoints which surround the current President. There are things that do not belong in a strictly encyclopedic article that are, nevertheless, informative and important in gaining a clearer understanding of the 'greater picture' surrounding an issue. If the consensus believe this section should not belong, then it should be removed. However, I do not think a final agreement on the matter was reached before MONGO removed the section. I do not lightly make judgments about this sort of thing, but MONGO, I believe you have a very strong point of view. I respect that, but I also believe that occasionally your point of view clouds your judgment as an editor. I think this is something you should keep in mind when you're contemplating removing entire sections of an article. I will leave it for the community to decide whether it is appropriate to re-add the Opinion Pieces section or something akin to it. I strongly believe that the standards of NPOV should be adhered to, but, for the reasons stated above, I also strongly support a section wherein controversial subject-matter can link to the varying salient opinions on an issue. Xaliqen 02:47, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

MONGO, I don't check this page for a day and there's already a slew of replies to this discussion alone, let alone Bush himself. If you can't realize there's contreversy in this topic, then you don't understand what contreversy is.

Heck, Bush is easily one of the most contreversial figures, let alone presidents, in American History. One just needs to look at his polling numbers from 9/11 when they were around 90 percent to just before the election when they were around 50. In a mere three years he managed to piss off 40 percent of the American population, and if he didn't secure Ohio Secretary of State Blackwell's wrongdoing, he'd probably have sprung a coup by now.

As for your POV concerns, you should follow your own advice, you constantly censor things that don't jibe with your world views. Opinions are never correct or incorrect, only facts are. Unfortunately, facts are often shaded with people's opinions, so what can be proven and what cannot is blurred(read up on defamation for more on this). I don't delete extremist right wing opinions unless they are presented as false facts because I am a liberal, and one of the key beliefs of being a true liberal is taking everyone's opinion into account(those on "our side" who think otherwise are just as conservative as Bush, if only as a counter-conservative)

And as for spinoff articles, my suggestion was meant towards making the main page into basically a directory of Wikilinks in order to shrink the page down to a managable size.

--Karmafist 05:42, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Haven't heard that one...well, I did hear it but it was swept under the table...the Ohio vote I am referring to...but maybe it didn't make a big splash in the press because they have all become right wing nut cases and are therefore duty bound to suppress all negative views on Bush. Just as I have been doing here, right? Let me state this very clearly..I consider a large portion of this article to be leftwing bias. I would like to delete a lot more than I ever have in any one single deletion. Those that think that I have edited out all the negative are not being factual. I could go into lots of right wing articles and link them into this and I don't because I think that would be pushing a POV. I am not asking for anything other than for everyone here to make an attempt to be neutral. But remarks about coups, fixed elections or how 40% of the American people became pissed off can hardly be construed to be anything other than your political bias clouding your ability to remain neutral. Just because 40% of the people became dissatisfied enough to voice a negative opinion poll doesn't mean they were pissed off. People rallied around the national leader in a time of crisis and his polls rose, when the economy slumped and then the war in Iraq bogged down, the polls dropped. Bush alienates most liberals because he is quite conservative for our time. But that doesn't mean that this forum should be used as a medium to demonize him. I don't go into the John Kerry or Bill Clinton or Hillary Clinton articles and force some right wing sensationalist allegations and opinions there. Weren't we talking about opinion pieces? I say get rid of them...the opinions are not that illuminating anyway.--MONGO 10:50, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

If the 40% fact is untrue, remove it. If it is simply a "negative opinion poll" or whatever, we should use the original wording from wherever that source was found. However, removing it is not ok. The more detail one can draw to a subject, the better, as long as its organized in a proper fashion. It is 100% encouraged to make text more resemble the prose that its citation is based upon, but do not remove material simply because it paints Bush in a bad light, and thus is "liberal." (or the converse). The meat of wikipedia articles is fact, we try to skin off the fat of opinion or of taking sides contained within the articles. However, linking to opinions is also correct. In my philosophy reader at school, we had two different opinions on ethical topics so that we could come to our own conclusion. Same with the Supreme Court and dissenting opinions. We would not detail a Supreme Court case without linking to both the normal and dissenting opinion. Opinions are not meaningless in themselves, we must be careful to balance them with each other. In addition, since everyone on the internet has an opinion about Bush, we must be careful to select a few choice opinions on both sides and not just any blogger who has an audience of more than 1000 people.--kizzle 20:03, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

Why is it the folks who know the least, lecture the most? The statement of a 40% drop in the opinion polls isn't in the article fully...the above was my response to it being labelled as an example to prove that people were pissed of...which has no correlation.--MONGO 09:25, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Attributing opinions

Although MONGO says, "Who cares about someone's opinions", there are plenty of instances in which the objective reporting of a subjective opinion is sufficiently informative to be included. The Wikipedia policy to that effect also calls for attributing such opinions, though. I've therefore removed this unattributed sentence: "Advocates of the conquest of Iraq have responded by pointing out the billions of embezzled dolalrs those officials at the UN, and in several of the other opposing countries, had gained from the corruption of the Iraqioil for food program." Even aside from the improper characterization "conquest of Iraq", I don't think this belongs in the article about Bush unless the Bush administration commented on the subject. I'm sure the administration has criticized the Oil for Food program, but linking that program to other nations' stances at the UN is another matter. Putting it in this context implies that Bush has drawn that link, which shouldn't be stated unless it can be sourced. If it's only some other people raising the charge, it should be covered in Oil for Food program but not here. JamesMLane 18:44, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)


The opinion as expressed above is also making or relying on unsupported factual statements. The use of the term "pointed out" implies that the expressed opinion (that officials at the UN, etc, embezzled billions of dollars in funds) is true. There are assumptions there too (that any embezzlement was exclusively by or on behalf of non-US nationals). It's a bit of a mess. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 16:34, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
One way of recognizing when someone is trying to add PoV when they dispute part of an article is that they complain about specific parts of something they find embarassing to their agenda, but instead of fixing the questionable details, they simply delete the whole thing. If it mention of the opposition to the conquest of Iraq by France and the UN are acceptable, then the counter-arguments popularly given, attributing their motivation to their profit in the food-for-oil fiasco, is equally appropriate. You can arguably dispute the precise delivery, but not the validity of the information itself. Kaz 18:08, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In the above, JamesMLane and I have indeed questioned the validity because it was not attributed. If there is an attribution that would be verifiable and there would be no problem. Sometimes an item when it first appeats is no more than hearsay and weaseling, but the originator if he makes the effort can find an attributable source and transform it. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 18:36, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This page is duplicated

van Wormer's Opinion

Why is Katherine van Wormer's opinion that Bush displays "all the classic patterns of addictive thinking" included in this article? As this is simply one person's opinion, shouldn't this be an external link in the opinion section? Carrp 16:11, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No, in general we shouldn't relegate significant opinions to external links (the opinion section of links serves no meaningful function in my opinion). Van Wormer's piece is significant because she's a professionally qualified specialist and published author on addiction and the piece was published in the Irish Times. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 16:27, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't disagree that she is qualified, but it's still only her opinion. Without extensive testing and, at the very least, interviewing Bush, her opinion cannot be considered an official diagnosis. It's very common for doctors to disagree about psychological and behavioral diagnoses. How many other qualified specialists concur with van Wormer? There is already information in this article that details Bush's drinking and drug problems. Van Wormer's opinion doesn't add much factual information. I do think the Irish Times article is worth adding to the external link section (I also agree that the opinion section is fairly useless). Carrp 16:38, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the piece is not illustrative in any legitimate sense of Bush's psychological state. Perhaps it needs reworking to make it plain that it isn't in the article to back up any factual statement. All it actually says, which I think is extraordinary enough, is that this published expert on addiction came out with this extraordinary pseudo-diagnosis and got it printed in a major European newspaper. I find Bush's behavior inexplicable, but I think that's more because I'm a left wing European than because he is or ever was an addict. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:18, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It's a disputed statement, so you're certainly right that it shouldn't be presented as if it were purely factual. It was first included with the line "It has been observed that", which was clearly improper, because "observed" has a connotation that the statement is correct. I was the one who made the change to "It has been argued that". (I still think "argue" is better than "claim" but I haven't cared about it enough to fight over it.) Either "claimed" or "argued" is enough to convey the point that it's someone's opinion, not a statement of undisputed fact. JamesMLane 21:42, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is only here to cast Bush in a bad light. It is not a definition accepted by the medical community, not based on anything other than her opinions which were not reached in a typical doctor/patient scenario, and they are her words she has opinionated because she disagrees with Bush on a political basis. It is best off in the opinion pieces which I think don't belong here either. Just think, if you put it there, I have only one edit to do instead of two!--MONGO 10:42, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

How does it cast Bush in a bad light? I agree with you that here, apparently, is a professional prostituting her credentials in order to score a cheap political point. So how does it reflect badly on Bush? --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:51, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Because it is a cheap political point.....it is her opinion. Her opinion carries no more weight than yours or mine on this subject regardless of her supposed credentials because it is not based on a typical doctor/patient relationship and would not be rendered as fact by any medical journal or institute. Lots of opinions are published and lots of them are not based on facts...that is why they are opinions. It alludes that because she thinks he is suffering from this malase it explains the reasons why he acts the way he does and for the decisions he has made but it does this in an effort to push a POV, not because she is behaving in a typical concerned doctor manner.--MONGO 12:31, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)


I'm sorry, but could you try to answer my question? How does van Wormer's behavior reflect badly on Bush? --Tony Sidaway|Talk 12:37, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Where did her behavior come in? Her behavior reflects badly on her, not on Bush. She is using her "expert opinion" to push her POV and to sell her book(s). I don't think I can make it simpler than that.--MONGO 13:10, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Good, then we're agreed that it doesn't reflect on Bush. Therefore by arguing for it to be there I'm not doing so in order to "cast Bush in a bad light", as you put it. I'm only putting it there because it's part of the story of the Bush Presidency that, like Clinton before him, he has sometimes experienced some rather overheated attacks upon his character in the quality press. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 14:18, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

We haven't agreed on anything as far as this goes. It has nothing to do with her behavior...it has to do with her unmedical opinion...and your continuous insistance that it is worthwhile reporting just because it appeared in a foreign newspaper...Her opinion casts Bush in a bad light because it insinuates that his behavior seems similar in her eyes to what she has come to know as a "dry drunk". Look, while assuming good faith, I cannot agree that her opinion is anything other than that and it is here because it helps support your own biases about him. Your question about her behavior has nothing to do with the point.--MONGO 09:18, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Bush is commonly known as...

I removed this recent addition:

Bush is commonly known as extremely conservative in nature, opposing gay marriage, stem cell research, abortion, and misleading the nation over the invasion of Iraq, typically governing from a Christian perspetive, despite our separation of church and state.

It's really just a "well my friends and I think this..." kind of insertion which isn't a lot of use (practically my whole city think that Bush is a raving nutcase but that isn't going into this article unless we run a poll). I think this kind of thing (especially the bit about misleading people) should have some kind of psephological basis. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 01:17, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Extra pro-Bush articles?

Perhaps some extra pro-Bush articles could be added to the opinion pieces links. There's 1 pro link and 6 con.

I cut the Against link section down to three links which is, I think, a pretty good number to keep things at. If you have two good links you could add to the Pro section, then please do. --Xaliqen 12:13, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Some NPOV edits

In response to MONGO's latest edits "to make this more of a NPOV article", I made several changes, some prompted by his edit, some that should have been changed a while ago.

  • I've restored, yet again, the information that MONGO keeps trying to delete -- that Bush's record budget deficit is in the context of his having inherited a record surplus. I previously pointed out that Bush's actual performance, of turning a $200 billion surplus into a $400 billion deficit, is significantly different from, as a hypothetical example, trimming a $700 billion deficit to $400 billion. Therefore, the context is highly relevant. MONGO, you haven't answered that argument or any of the arguments that several other editors advanced.
  • This constant harping on "van Wormer never examined Bush" is pretty silly. It would be obvious to the reader. Nevertheless, since MONGO makes such a cause about it, I've left it in, but as long as we're stating the obvious, I'll add that Bush has never submitted to such an examination. Even leaving in this silliness, the conclusion that van Wormer's opinion "therefore carries little weight" is POV and must be removed. Also, although it wasn't in MONGO's latest edit and I forget who inserted it, the crack about this being "an easy target for the press" serves no purpose but to denigrate one side of the controversy.
    • Mongo, if you disagree with the above, read Wikipedia:Spoon Feeding --kizzle 23:17, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)
  • The van Wormer material was recently expanded to include a longish quotation from her article. I think the previous, shorter version was better; anyone who wanted to see her elaboration could just click on the link. Nevertheless, perhaps the Bush partisans prefer it this way on the theory that it makes her opinion look like just a rationalization for disagreeing with his politics. I prefer the shorter version but I can live with it either way.
  • I removed another silly remark, "According to CBS news and Dan Rather, he never served in any army at any time."
  • There's no reason to censor the controversy over Bush's TV appearance in the matter of Tucker's execution.
  • The "Pet Goat" episode has been prominent in the public discussion of Bush's presidency. I've restored the deleted photo.
  • There is language in here, which MONGO didn't change, about U.S. sale of WMD's to Iraq. That's the kind of controversial point that needs a citation. I've left it in for now, but if it can't be sourced (possibly with an attribution instead of being a flat assertion), it should be deleted.
  • Similarly, I previously commented that the passage about Oil for Food shouldn't just be ascribed to unnamed "critics". It's been rewritten but the flaw is the same. The passage should identify some notable person or entity that supports this view. If none such can be identified, it should be deleted.

JamesMLane 11:41, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Your constant harping that van Wormers unmedical opinion should be in here at all is pretty silly too, James! How could the insertion of this be anything but support for your liberal bias....for the last time, it is a bunch of hogwash! The pet goat picture is another tired innuendo that Bush was perhaps perplexed...unknowing what to do next, after being told about the planes hitting the WTC towers etc...you have it here to support your bias that he is unintelligent...what other purpose could it serve other than that? What does that picture have to do with anything else? Tony sidaway keeps putting that picture back in after others take it out stating that he likes the picture...so what. What purpose does it serve except to allude to something untrue that was, in all liklihood, taken out of context. Show me where the grade point average is in the John Kerry article, or Bill Clinton. The left likes it here because they think it makes Bush look of average intelligence. Well, Lincoln had little if any formal education as did a number of other people highly regarded as intelligent. As far as budget comparisons, it is the same deal...you want it here because it continues to support your point of view. You think it is significant but it is taken out of context and fails to address the reasons. It is done as an innuendo to suggest that Bush is less capable than Clinton at managing his budget. I see little you add here that has any basis in neutrality, James. You even state that the issue of WMD sale by the U.S. to Iraq should be referenced, but you leave it in anyway. If it was an issue I had deleted you would quickly scamper to find some vague periodical that would support the claim, no matter how poorly regarded that article may be, just to bolster your neverending effort to display your radical left wing ideas of neutrality. Hence my discussion that we might as well cite the National Enquirer! There is every reason to eliminate the issue of Bush being cynical about the Tucker execution. Where is your reference for this? This article states "The execution of Karla Faye Tucker, who repented in prison and become a born-again Christian, was particularly controversial, in part because Bush appeared on television publicly mocking and mimicking her appeals for clemency." What television, and where? When I read this article it is so full of things taken out of context, falsehoods, innuendo which supports a leftwing bias and misconceptions it reminds of me of reading a treatise on evolution written by creationists.--MONGO 13:49, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

MONGO, your personal attacks are growing very tiresome. I left in the part about sale of weapons for the same reason I left in the unattributed slur on several UN members that dared to disagree with Our Glorious Leader: I was following the Wikipedia standard of assuming good faith. On these two points, which could be seen as one pro-Bush and one anti-Bush, I didn't just delete, but called the editors' attention to the need for citation. Do you agree with me that, unless they can be properly sourced, both points should be deleted? Beyond those specifics, if you want to think, without evidence, that I automatically "scamper to find some vague periodical" in support of anything anti-Bush, fine, you go right and think whatever you like. JamesMLane 20:45, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Mongo, first of all, exercise some judgment and Wikipedia:Assume good faith, don't call it a bunch of hogwash. Keep it simple, simply disagree and submit an argument for your perspective of how the article should be, and shut up about everything else. My personal feelings about the Van Wormer piece are undecided at this point. Has her book or opinion been cited on television or any other avenue for public exposure? If the group thinks that the book for better or worse has received enough public attention than I think it should be included but with JML's explicit disclaimer that Bush has never submitted to such an examination. If its not prominent in the public eye, however, I'm not so sure that it should belong here simply for being a low degree of relevancy and significance. However, JML is dead on about several other things. The context of Bush inheriting a $200 billion surplus and turning it into a $400 deficit is vitally important, as dropping the former changes the meaning and significance of the latter. How is mentioning this in any way taking things out of context? Just use the line that every other Bush supporter uses, "it was due to 9/11". But don't censor the fact that he started out way on top. Another thing, "according to CBS news and Dan Rather" is obviously laced with so much innuendo it can hardly be called neutral. The Pet Goat episode is one of the primary bones of contention for opposers of Bush and is one of the most memorable scenes of a movie that grossed more than any other documentary in box office history. However, if there are no references to the passages you cite, then they should be removed until someone can find a source for the information. Stop bitching about left and right interests on this page, just make your point and back it up, there is no wiki liberal cabal that rules all here, the only currency that carries weight here is properly referenced non-analytical descriptive sentences. One is a lot more likely to listen to your viewpoint if it contains much more reasoning and less complaining. --kizzle 23:17, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

I didn't know that the pet goat picture was in that documentary...but in light of the fact that that documentary was not seen by me, it should be no wonder. I'm sure I would have found it enlightening. You complain about me "bitching" and also tell me to "shut up". That's very nice. Here's my answer: when this article becomes neutral, then I will do both of those things. Incredible that you would tell me to assume good faith then demand that I shut up. I never claimed to say that Bush isn't to be credited with a huge federal deficit, only that it isn't necessary to compare it. The pet goat picture is only here because most of us remember that Bush did sit quizzing himself after being told about the WTC...so what..who wouldn't be in a state of shock somewhat...which is what I took it to be. I do not see the importance of it, especially since it isn't referenced. I didn't know it was in the documentary because I didn't see it. The issue of Karla Faye Tucker's execution and the supposed public mocking of the event by Bush isn't referenced either...where is the proof. Put the proof in there and it stays for sure, for I am opposed to the death penalty anyway. As far as WMD being sold by the U.S. to Iraq, I am not familar to this issue and need to research it more before I can discuss this matter. I have discussed Hatfield's book, which isn't even on the shelves anymore, as also being a less than credible source. I do see in this article many many links to other references, but I do not think they are in some cases very strong unbiased treatises on the issue referenced. If you wish to prove to me that you and others that find this article to be neutral then you won't do so by lecturing me, being condescending or by telling me to shut up.--MONGO 08:30, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"Why do people who know the least, lecture the most?", now that's condescending.
In analyzing how a president did, we take what the country was like the day he took office to when he left. When Bush took office, he had a $200B surplus, now its up to a $400B deficit ... that's a net loss of $600B under Bush's term. Seems to me like an important thing to note. Like I said, if that's taken out of context, then apply the context that is missing, don't censor the existing essential facts (i.e. "blame it on 9/11"). I must correct myself that the picture of the pet goat probably does not come directly from F9/11, the event was just made public for most people by the movie, of which that scene where he waits 7 minutes is one of the most memorable. I had said it earlier, maybe I didn't word it correctly, that I agree that if certain aspects of this page like the death penalty mocking incident isn't referenced, then take it out. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that unless they can find a source. --kizzle 19:39, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

It isn't so much the comparison, it is the context. I do not think it is up to us to analyize how a President did...to such a degree. The deficit can be blamed on many things, some of which include...reduced corporate profits and therefore reduced tax revenue, reduced taxes to citizens, increased spending especially for defense, and much lower on the list is the issue of 9/11...but that is still causal to some of the other tax hikes. I think it is enough to simply say that Bush has the largest federal deficit in history...and then the comparison isn't necessary. However, in comparison to the current GDP, the current deficit is still not a record. But to put that in would be a positive for Bush, so I don't add it because I do want this to be neutral.--68.13.116.52 21:17, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yowza!

What a gobshite! How the hell did he get a second term? do Americans read te newpapers? are they aware of politics at all? god help us.--Crestville 03:54, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The goat picture has to go

I think this article has major problems. Even if the tone is NPOV, virtually all the information cited gives a negative impression of Bush's background, accomplishments, etc.

Removing that "The Pet Goat" photo would be a good improvement. It's not even mentioned anywhere else in the article, and seems to exist here only to portray Bush as a buffoon.

Um, pet goat picture? RickK 06:07, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
All the other pictures in this article appear to be official portraits or posed publicity shots of GWB. If they give Bush a "negative impression", then there is really nothing that Wikipedia can do about that. The "pet goat" picture provides a good counterbalence to the clinical posing of the official photographs.
If it would help we can add text about where the "pet goat" picture comes from. DJ Clayworth 06:16, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I was on the side of it being an attempt to make a naughty point, but if it's an official publicity photo, then I'd say its incidental connotation is no worse than the pro-Bush spin clearly behind all the other publicity photos.
If we're gonna yank it, then we should also yank the one that has him looking so presidential, and the one that has him next to another world leader all statesmanlike, the pic of him as a good family man, et cetera.
And understand this: While there are many criticisms of Bush which I find credible, I consider the pet goat thing to be sheer nonsense. He could not have accomplished anything by running willy-nilly from the classroom and trying to "take command" seven minutes earlier. That's authority-worshipping silliness. But I still say that, if it's a legitimate, official publicity pic, it should stay...one is taking a PoV stance by wanting to remove it. Trying to censor something which appears embarassing to their "side". And, again, I say this despite thinking the complaint implied in the pic is bogus. Kaz 20:48, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I understand the desire for less stilted pictures than official photos (though other presidents' articles don't seem to suffer from any such problem). However, I think the choice of the Goat image is suspicious. It seems more like a tie-in with Fahrenheit 911 than a candid snapshot of the president that just happened to make it onto the page. Anyway, thanks to DJ Clayworth's edit, the complaint is no longer implied, so it's even less NPOV than before. At least the link to The Pet Goat provides some counterbalance, although none is given in the article text. Ultra Megatron 07:01, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)
I made this edit because someone complained that the picture wasn't in context, so I put some context in. Feel free to remove it if you prefer. DJ Clayworth 20:42, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The Goat picture should be there, I think--it's what he did after being informed of the attack. I'm not happy with the current caption, however. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:55, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The goat picture is misleading. Most of those who know of the incident can look at it from one of two ways: that he is an idiot and it took him 7 minutes to break free from the excitement of the book about the Pet Goat and deal with the 21st century version of Pearl Harbor (it was worse than Pearl Harbor)or, that it was a combination of shock and digestion and gathering a course of action to handle this momentus event, which is my impression. As far as it being in F911, I didn't see the documentary, but knowing that the director of that movie is prone to putting things out of context (in much the same way creationists do when writing about evolution), I do not consider any innuendo to that documentary as neutral, regardless of how much money it made. I see no reason for the picture to be here...I've got a personal impromtu picture of Bush from just last week of him speaking at a venue where he discussed social security reform that I attended...it isn't flattering and one could make all sorts of deductions from it as well. I do not see that only White House approved pictures should be displayed here, but this one is subversive and is here for one apparent reason only, and that is to cast Bush in a bad light, and can therefore never be construed by me to be anything other than pushing a point of view.--MONGO 20:30, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Why replace an image that will be familiar to the millions with an utterly obscure image? It hardly matters what you think of the movie - the picture wasn't shot for the movie, it just used the footage. Again, if you think that use of an image by a biased source invalidates the image then any images used by GWB's machine (not just created by them) should also be treated with suspicion. The picture is a rare one of a world leader at a defining moment in history. It's hardly irrelevant. Any interpretation you place on it, such as the rather negative one you give, is entirely your own issue. DJ Clayworth 20:40, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I really, really like JamesMLane's recent edit, making the caption read: Bush reading The Pet Goat in a classroom after being informed of the attack on the World Trade Center. He was criticized by some for his apparent nonchalance, but praised by others for not alarming the schoolchildren. I think that encapsulates the issue very well. I know people who don't even like Bush who think he did the right thing that morning, and I'm sure there are pro-Bush people who think the President could just stand up and say thank you kindly to the children but he has some Presidenting to do. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:46, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Mongo, the fact that you have an alternative interpretation of the picture proves that it does not push a single point of view. Gamaliel 00:08, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
IN other words, my alternative...the positive one is the opposite of yours which must be the negative one, hence your argument that the picture is substantive based on your viewing the picture and thinking negatively. If you come here with a liberal predisposition then that will cloud YOUR ability to be neutral.--MONGO 12:41, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think the caption should make clear that Bush has not just been told about an attack, but that a second plane had hit the World Trade Center. He actually went into the Florida classroom already aware of AA11 hitting the north tower, which might have been excused or explained as a terrible aviation accident. As is obvious from the unedited footage (with sound) of the entire classroom visit,[4] which if anything is more chilling than the abbreviated version Michael Moore used (with his own voiceover) in his Fahrenheit 9/11 excerpt, Chief-of-Staff Andrew Card waited for an opportune moment when it would have been entirely appropriate for Bush to rise, say a few words, and plausibly excuse himself. As has been widely quoted and acknowledged, Card told the President two phrases: a second plane had hit the towers, and that America was under attack. Bush didn't move or get up, perhaps out of shock, perhaps because Card had not specifically told him to get up, or perhaps because he didn't want to "upset the children," although I think that was a rationalization after the fact, because he had been given the opportunity to leave. I think it entirely appropriate for this photo to be part of the George W. Bush page, since indeed 9/11 is the defining moment of his first term. The use of this photo on Wikipedia's page should have nothing to do with whether Michael Moore used it in his film. We all remember -- and indeed can never possibly forget -- where we were at the moment we heard or saw what was happening. We should remember where Bush was, and his reaction. Sandover 00:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Wrong. The picture is here to push a POV. The point of view is that the President didn't react fast enough. You can all twist it any way you wish but that is why the picture is here and that is why you all keep pushing this issue. I consider his defining moment of 9/11 as the speech he gave a few days after that event...perhaps one of the finest in Presidential history...where is that picture? I said it once and I'll say it again...you cannot undue the fact that he is the President if you wished he wasn't by slandering him. If it must stay why not word the caption: Bush reads the book The Pet Goat after being informed of the second plane hitting the WTC. Some have said that he was waiting for a break in the reading to depart so that the children wouldn't be upset, while others have critized him for not responding to the call of duty quick enough. Though this is long for a caption, it shows that in this article, the negative must always go before the positive, as far as the way much of it is written. Why not put a positive view before a negative view?--MONGO 09:28, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The alternative points of view are that Bush went into a funk and that Bush displayed great restraint so as not to upset the children. Those are significant opinions on Bush and should be reported in the article about him. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Negative. No one really knows what he was thinking but him. But the critism of that pause, moment of momentus decision, effort to be tactful etc. has been misinterpreted by the liberal media and perverted to make most folks think that he was dumbfounded as to what to do next. That is what everyone has been led to believe. Therefore, the picture is here because it helps the left wingers perpertrate their myth that the President is an idiot. You and yours demand the continuance of it being here because it helps you support your attempt to slander. I say replace it with a picture of Bush deliving the speech he made a few days later. With those pictures, we can KNOW what he said...with this picture, we can only DEDUCE what he was thinking and most folks have been brainwashed into believing that he was not thinking at all.--MONGO 12:41, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Let's assume hypothetically that there was a vast left-wing conspiracy to convey a false impression about Bush, and that this conspiracy succeeded in using this picture to brainwash millions of people. On that assumption, the picture is notable and should be included. That's the issue, not whether some people are drawing an incorrect conclusion from the photo. We could go into a whole big thing about the different interpretations, giving more detail about each side. I personally think the subject isn't important enough to warrant that, however. The photo is notable and should be included; because the subject isn't addressed in the article, the caption should summarize why a seemingly routine photo became important. I think that's enough detail on it because I don't think there was a vast left-wing conspiracy, I don't buy the anti-Bush argument that there was something useful he could've done in those seven minutes, and I don't buy the pro-Bush argument that he couldn't have politely excused himself without panicking the children. Therefore, let's not clutter the article with the blow-by-blow about Bush's activities on September 11. JamesMLane 13:01, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
MONGO, you're absolutely right when you say that we look at the picture and deduce what he was thinking. Nobody knows. He's the most important politician in the world and the kind of person he is--how he acts in a calamity--is important to a lot of people. So they look at the video and they try to work out what it says about Bush.
Now replacing it with a picture of a guy making a speech would probably be the wrong thing to do. Politicians rehearse speeches, and usually the speeches aren't even written personally by them. Here is a picture of Bush at a time when, perhaps for the first time in his Presidency, he had to make a decision without access to his staff. He had to think on his feet. I look at it and I see a man beset by indecision, others may look at it and see a man being considerate to the children whom he is there to meet. Whatever you think, it's a pretty powerful portrait of President Bush unmediated by the usual White House smoke and mirrors. A rare chance to see the man beneath. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 13:06, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think both of you saw too much news coverage of that situation and or F911 and reach the conclusion you do about him being indecisive. I say it is here and you support it here because it supports your biased opinion of Bush. I don't use the word biased in a hostile manner. We all have our biases...no doubt. But I think that the entire issue of this photo is a misrepresentation in that the media, which tends to be leftwing, has looked at it from that manner and has passed it on to all of us. I do not see controversial pictures of this nature in similar articles. I do not see that at all. It sits solitary and alone and is not connected to the article...but due to the bias of the media, we have all been well indocrinated to what that picture was guessed to mean about what Bush was doing which appeared to be nothing. As far as Bush having the chance to show independent thought...well, some of his staff were right there with him...and no President acts alone anyway...I say the picture should be replaced with this one for, as I said, we know what he said.[5]. That would leave no ambiguities and would be neutral because it is attributable to a known, not some perception.--MONGO 13:56, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, sidestepping the issue of whether to keep the pic or not, I don't think people have been biased by the leftwing media to see the photo as an indictment of Bush. Quite the opposite; everybody, without exception, I have talked to who has seen the whole clip of him just sitting there for a very loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time has said the same thing: 1) it clearly portrays him as rudderless and 2) why the hell hasn't this clip been shown in the media before? Gzuckier 15:59, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I disagree, which is why I think my opinion on this is significant; I think it's utterly ridiculous to pretend that Bush could have accomplished anything more if he'd run out of the room (panicking the children) and started trying to micromanage the situation seven minutes earlier. This is the kind of authority-worshipping nonsense that really irks me about our society in recent years. People "taking charge" doesn't automatically improve a situation or crisis. And yet I agree the pic should stay. Especially if it's a Bush PR pic. If we don't censor PR pics for making Bush look good, we shouldn't censor them for supposedly making him look bad. And, anyway, the fact that the pic is historically significant makes it that much more appropriate, good or bad. One of the most famous individual pics of Clinton is the one of him laughing at Ron Brown's funeral. Because the pic is so famous, it would be appropriate in his article, though of course the Clinton apologists would try to censor it purely out of their own bias. Kaz 16:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
On the contrary, it's utterly ridiculous to pretend that the only alternative to Bush sitting there continuing his photo op was to run out of the room screaming. He could have easily excused himself in a calm manner without scaring anyone. Despite what Mongo thinks, all these possible interpretations prove that one single POV is not being pushed by including the picture. This is an important, unrehearsed moment in American history as it is happening and should be included, and is much more important than some varnished, rehearsed picture of a politician's speech. (Incidentally, someone should put a Lewinsky pic in Clinton's article.) Gamaliel 17:39, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Bush's behavior since September 11, 2001 is something about which I have a particular interpretation but that is not something for discussion here. I will simply say that it is possible to have interpretations of Bush's reaction to the incident (and American's reaction in general) other than the one that is loudly promoted by the White House.
You can rest assure that, being European, I have never had the opportunity to become "indoctrinated" by the US media, since I do not have access to their output and my local media have their own independent US political correspondents. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 16:11, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
OK, let's be realistic here...if the premise is that people might get a bad impression of Bush from the US media, that's true cubed for European media. I still say the pic should stay, but you're not exactly gonna get a positive impression of Bush in Europe. Kaz 17:28, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Indeed you won't. But my point handily demolishes MONGO's belief that there is a small clique of Washington "liberals" or whatever the mot-du-jour is engineering bad PR for Bush. If anything, the Washington press corps is seen by outsiders to be a bunch of spineless bootlickers for Bush. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:46, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

reordering books

just wanted to maybe sort the book section by author's last name, unless someone has a problem i'll do it later tonight. --kizzle 19:45, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

Karla Faye Tucker

The statement we had, that Bush mocked her on television, was wrong. She appeared on television (on Larry King). Tucker Carlson wrote a magazine article (in Talk) that reported on Bush's mocking of her TV appearance. I haven't looked up the paper copy of Talk, and website (like the magazine) is defunct, but the passage was quoted on many websites, so I'm comfortable with it unless and until someone finds it's an error. (Talk magazine, September 1999, page 106 is the cite I saw.) The link I gave is to a site quoting the article and also quoting a Salon interview with Carlson. I don't subscribe to Salon; maybe someone who does can check out the Salon link to verify it. (An amusing sidenote is that Carlson was worried that his profile would be seen as "a suck-up piece", but Salon characterized it as "the most damaging profile of [Bush] yet written". JamesMLane 21:42, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Here is a link to some further info regarding the Tucker incident: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17670 and here is another link from the National Review: http://www.nationalreview.com/daily/nr080999.html --Xaliqen 21:49, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC) Sorry, didn't realize that you'd already linked the NY Review of Books article --Xaliqen 21:53, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Everyone will have to forgive me for this and will probably chalk it up to what may be perceived as a pro Bush agenda...but I do not find either of these links satisfying. I know you researched it throughly but do not believe it to be substantial enough, and I would like to see a link to the original interview or quotes as they were reported in Talk. These links are secondary to the main article. If you can find a copy of that Talk edition, scan it in and create a website for it, I doubt there would be any copywrite enfringement in light of the magazine being defunct. The interviewer may feel otherwise...in that he is a conservative. I searched for the information myself and cannot find any to add. I will say that a quote from a magazine or article that quotes a now defunct magazine isn't sufficent unless the original citation can be accessed.--MONGO 07:07, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There is no reason to exclude widely reported information simply because the source is not internet accessable. A proper citation should be more than sufficient. Also, we shouldn't be a party to a copyright violation simply for our own convienence. The magazine may not be around, but the company who owned the magazine probably is, and the editor of the magazine and the author of the article are still alive. Gamaliel 07:24, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Then it needs to be found as I do not consider third party citations as qualifying.--MONGO 09:28, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you that I'd like to see a link for every point in an article, but it's not always possible. Wikipedia frequently cites printed sources that aren't available online. It's not our usual practice to scan such sources and create a website. Furthermore, Gamaliel is correct that printed material doesn't pass into the public domain just because a magazine stops publishing. I've given a link to my source. Any reader who shares your skepticism about third-party citations can see that this one is a third-party citation and can discount it accordingly. Such a reader can also do a Google search and discount all the many other websites that quote the Talk article to the same effect. JamesMLane 14:06, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The objection that we can't include widely documented information unless we can link to a direct version of an article in a periodical which no longer exists is absolutely indefensible. It is clear from the articles linked here, if one bothers to examine them, that this incident did indeed happen, unless Carlson, a pro-Bush pundit, was lying about his own interview with Bush. This does indeed seem like yet another PoV censorship trick, trying to keep a fact embarassing to one's own agenda silent. As with the goat pic, allowing this is a matter of principle, regardless of whether one likes the perception it creates. We should defend the posting of factual material that we dislike more stridently than the stuff we support, just as a society can only have liberty if people are free to make unpopular choices. Kaz 18:13, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've tracked down the publication details, the volume and number (it was vol1 no 1), the name of the article and the page numbers. Thus we have a verifiable citation. The incident, from Carlson's article as source, was widely reported in news media at the time and has often been referenced since. I'm not happy with the wording we have now, however, until someone can track down a copy and verify. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 18:50, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think I am coming accross as an obstructionist on this issue. Probably I am. It goes back to my belief that I don't think Salon or some of the other sources of information are very creditible in that they do tend to be sensationalistic and left wing. I've read up on this Carlson guy and it appears to me that his family influence is the main reason he is employed in his field, as he is not all that respected in his field, kind of a Rush Limbaugh type, going off the deep end on a number of issues, being insulting, etc. In that, he appears to be somewhat sensationalistic too. I am conceding defeat on this issue because I know now after looking hard myself that it isn't probably possible to find the original citation and all of you have found more credible citations than were here before. Furthermore, being a conservative, though I don't trust him, Carlson probably did witness this event during his interview with Bush and it is unlikely he would have recited it if it wasn't true. I still do not think the van wormer opinion or Hatfields book or anything from Salon to be creditible however. No, it's not that I accept bad information about Bush solely from conservative sources, I just find these three areas to be unworthy of Wikipedia standards.--MONGO 20:06, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well MONGO, I sure don't think the National Review is left-wing. First of all, it was founded by William F. Buckley Jr. Second, if you go to the front-page of their web-site, it's quite clear that the focus is on conservative issues from a conservative perspective. As for its reliability, it's been published since 1955, not that longevity determines reliability, but it is certainly a respected publication in a number of circles. --Xaliqen 21:17, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, National Review is a Neo-Conservative magazine, which means that right now it's devoutly Bush League, for better or worse, since he's successfully advancing their number one agenda. Kaz 04:02, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well Xaliqen, if you read my discussion then you would see that I had indeed praised those that found more credible sources in this matter. So why are you still unsatisfied?--MONGO 08:00, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)