Talk:George Felix Allen/Archive 1/1b

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Contents

Allegations by Allen's Sister

Sorry, I should have posted here first. I removed this material because I thought the context of its inclusion was POV. Unlike the Confederate Flag material, which is undisputed by Allen, and supported by photographic evidence, these allegations are based only on the word of Allen's sister and, to my knowledge, disputed by Allen. I don't mean they're not true, I just think they should not be given as much weight here as undisputed facts. I think they probably belong in the Wikipedia entry, I just don't think they should be one of the first pieces of information about the subject. But I'm willing to leave this up to the judgment of more experienced editors. Lucky Adrastus 01:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I tried to clean up the POV issues a little by making them their own subsection and clearly noting several times that the events allegedly occurred. Jkatzen 03:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I think these are pretty good changes. I still think this might somehow be better placed lower in the article or something, since the allegations are so inflammatory, but I'm sure that if Allen becomes a major candidate, they'll be new information to fill the article out. Lucky Adrastus 03:27, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Lucky - do you have any evidence that Allen has disputed his sister's claims? I assume he has not confirmed them, but we can't simply assume that he has disputed them simply because she said he did a lot of rotten things. I don't know, maybe he has disputed them, but you need to present some evidence of that. I don't think it should be in its own section, either. We do need to make clear that these are her allegations, but I don't think we need to go crazy about that. One thing I would like is to be able to cite this material to the book directly, rather than just to Lizza's article - all of the incidents we mention are ones mentioned by Lizza, so I assume that nobody's actually taken a look at the book itself. john k 05:06, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

To be clearer - it's overkill and bad writing to make every sentence start with an awkward locution that indicates that these are just Jennifer Allen's claims. It should be sufficient to mention this once, and to make sure that other sentences do not try to claim outright that what she is saying is true. john k 05:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

John Kenny -- Thanks for the comments and edits. I think you are right that no one here has read the book (well at least I haven't). As for evidence of "dispute", Allen's "disputing" comes from the Lizza article itself. Lizza asked him about the book and Allen responded "It's the perspective of the youngest child, who is a girl". I think that counts as disputing. But you're also right that it comes off as akward to constantly repeat that these are allegations. I think the way you put it is fine and clear. I still feel that the effective prominence of the allegations isn't really "fair" to Allen (who I don't much like, whatever it's worth). It seems to me like the kind of information that belongs in a controversy section or something like that, probably after his accomplishments in office, which are arguably more "important". Perhaps it's the repeat of the "dentist" quote, which isn't an action taken by Allen, but rather an accusation by his sister. Lucky Adrastus 19:33, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
That sounds to me as though Allen is very clearly not disputing any of his sister's factual allegations. That doesn't mean that he is admitting that they happened, but he's also not saying "I never held my sister by the feet over Niagara Falls or threw my brother through a glass door," which would be how I would understand him "disputing" the allegations. If anything, I'd say that Allen is essentially admitting that these events took place, but disputing his sister's interpretation of them. john k 01:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I haven't reviewed all of Agrifolia's recent, extensive, edits, but they appear to handle this material correctly (i.e. including it, but placing it near end of article). Lucky Adrastus 08:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

position on assault weapons ban

Do we have any sources that confirm that he has changed his position on the assualt weapons ban? At the bare minimum it would be nice to have a source for his current position. This issue could become part of a "conservatism test" in the primary.--Victoria h 05:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

What primary would that be? John Broughton 14:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Temporarilly removed from American lawyers cat

I temporarilly removed this article from Category:American lawyers because it never mentions him actually practicing law. He might be licensed to practice, but there's no mention of it in the article which means that, currently, the article shouldn't be in that category. (It's not verified in the article, and he's apparently not notable for practicing law.)

Now if the article is expanded with verified information about him practicing law in his state, then go ahead and place him in the appropriate subcategory of Category:American lawyers by state.Dugwiki 22:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Relationship with Pat Robertson Section

I'd like to make an argument that this small section should be removed. It's language is NPOV, but I don't think it is terribly relevant. It basically accounts to repeating a press release from a single group criticizing Allen. And it's really a criticism of Robertson, who, while certainly deserving criticism, in no more connected to Allen than to most other prominent Republican politicians. There also hasn't been any kind of ensuing criticism of Allen in this regard, certainly it hasn't been a big press story.

At the least, Allen's response through his press secretary should be included. If there isn't any disagreement, I'll remove the section in a few days. Lucky Adrastus 21:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with you, and I'm not an Allen fan. It seems to be a minor controversy at best. I'm going to go ahead and remove it. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 21:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm no fan of Allen's either. This just didn't strike me as Wikipedia material. Lucky Adrastus 21:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

'Makaka' Controversy

Re: the intro: honestly, to include the controversy up there at this point -- when it hasn't even managed to make headlines for a full news cycle -- seems obviously biased. Can we at least wait until some other reliable sources -- say, the Richmond Times-Dispatch, The Virginian-Pilot, the Roanoke Times, The Hotline, take your pick -- run stories on this and develop it further before we push it into the lede? --GGreeneVa 01:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

If the story had not been reported in the Washington Post, I would agree with you (article here). The fact that it has, however, makes the story verifiable in a reliable source. I know there's a lot of blog chatter out there about this, and we need to be diligent to ensure that blog speculation does not make its way into the article. However, since it is not original research and is described in this article in a way that is in line with the WaPo article, making it, in my opinion, neutral for now (though perhaps it should be tweaked), it is appropriate to mention it. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 01:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh -- I know about the Post article (sorry I didn't clarify). I wasn't picking a fight about whether to include it in the article; it verifiably happened, it's newsworthy, so by all means, yeah, let's put it in. But as for putting it in the intro: to me, the story doesn't rise to that level of significance yet, because it hasn't had time to develop. In a day or so, once we see where this is heading, who knows? But while it's article-ready, it's not intro-worthy yet, IMHO. --GGreeneVa 01:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
My fault for not noticing that you were referring to the intro only, actually. I think you're probably right on that point. I will remove the description from the intro for now. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 01:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there documentation (in, say, a dictionary of American slang) for the three-syllable pronunciation of macaque? (It's two syllables in both French & standard English.) The alternate pronunciation seems like a likely Anglicization to me, but I haven't been able to verify it readily. Billbrock 01:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Per comments on a political blog (sorry, misplaced the link): apparently the three-syllable pronunciation is common in southern France (cf. the similar pronunciation of the final syllable in "Frère Jacques"). Billbrock 03:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
The section couldn't get any more POV. It doesn't matter how Allen's comment could be interpreted, it matters what he meant. "Macaca" could also mean 'idiot POV pushing liberals,' but obviously that isn't what he meant. Anything off topic will be removed. Haizum 11:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Arguably if Allen let slip a racist comment, he isn't going to be honest about what it meant. The possible meanings of "Macaca" or "Macaque" are relevant to this story, especially given the French pronounciation, his French language background, and his family's Tunisian background. Removing the sections pertaining to that are very POV on your part. - Aurostion 21:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Other articles on the incident that've come out in the last day or so:

Looks like the story's starting to break pretty wide. There was already an op-ed against it in the Post, in addition to the factual article mentioned earlier. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 14:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Query: does that quote from Allen deserve credit as an apology? What the Post said aside, the words themselves seem to say "I'm sorry you took exception," not "I'm sorry I said that." The latter assumes responsibility; the former, not so much. --GGreeneVa 20:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to make a minor tweak to elide -- that is, skate around -- this point. Shouldn't affect POV. --GGreeneVa 23:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like to recomment that we remove the following paragraphs as they are complete speculation on both sides.

The word macaque refers to a type of monkey, and has occasionally been used as a racial slur against dark-skinned Africans. The word could also have been "macaca" or "mukakkah," a French and Belgian slur for dark skinned peoples of North African descent.[14] Allen's mother immigrated from French Tunisia and is of French descent.[15] Allen speaks French and obtained excellent grades in French as an undergraduate.[16] Allen's campaign maintains that the word was used in reference to Sidarth's apparent mohawk.[12] However, Sidarth's haircut is not a mohawk but a mullet.

An Allen press aide initally dismissed the racial incident with an expletive. Allen has since claimed that he had heard his staff use the term "macaca" in reference to Sidarth, that he did not know what the word meant, and that he did not intend to insult Sidarth's ethnicity when he singled him out to the crowd. "I do apologize if he's offended by that," Allen said, adding that "I would never want to demean him as an individual."[12] On August 15th, Allen's communication director told the New York Times that members of Allen's campaign "good-naturedly" nicknamed Sidarth "Mohawk" when speaking among themselves, but could not explain how the word morphed into "macaca."[17]

On August 16th, the National Journal reported that two Virginia Republicans who heard the word used by Allen's campaign staff said "macaca" was a neologism created from "Mohawk" and "caca," Spanish slang for excrement. "Said one Republican close to the campaign: 'In other words, [Sidarth] was a shit-head, an annoyance.'"[18]

This incident should be reported with possibly some comments form both sides, however these areguments are opnion and do not belong in an encyclopedia. We are speculating on intent. I will wait fo additional comments from wiki's. Nnoppinger 00:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm cautious about citing the Nationmaster.com article as a source for Macaca as a racial slur, in part because the page itself states: This article or section contains information that has not been verified and thus might not be reliable. If you are familiar with the subject matter, please check for inaccuracies and modify as needed, citing sources. I don't think there is any doubt about Makaka being a racial slur and I have provided some cites on Macaca (slur) that support it being a racial epithet, but no-one has come up with anything scholarly or verifiable as yet. Richardjames444 15:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it might be a better idea to make this section significantly smaller and link to the new S.R. Sidarth article (that I basically wrote form this section) since this controversy may be swept under the rug within a week. This Senator has been around for awhile and to have such a large section on a brand-new news item seems silly. I think it belongs in its own entry that this page can link to. Claymoney 16:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Tramm Hudson could give Allen a few pointers on how to make an apology. Richardjames444 20:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

If Allen´s mother was italian, French and a "little Spanish" (i love the little) it means Allens knows perfectly that in those cultures macaca or more correctly "macaco" is an insult directed at people with dark skin, like calling somebody "monkey". I find also interesting that Allen´s mother Tunisian origin makes her what some French (the racist kind) call a "pied noir", a French person from the colonies who might have picked up there some local blood. It´s ironic to find Allen on the other side of racism. —The preceding [J.M. Rodríguez]] .

Other criticisms

I have removed this in its entirety as these are personal opnions and have no place in an encyclopedia. Many people may find Al Gore to be a an idiot, but that not would have any place in his article. Nnoppinger 02:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Nnoppinger is referring to this section. I commented above, but here it is again: Perhaps you're right about the Al Gore criticism, anyway, it seems like a minor criticism at best. The other criticism in the "other criticisms" section, however, is sourced to the Washingtonian (magazine). I'm not sold on its inclusion, but it seems that it would be at least somewhat more approrpriate for an encyclopedia article because it does have such a source. In any event, I'm ok with the removal of that one subsection (though obviously not the entire "controversies" section). · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 02:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned, I don't see any NPOV violations in the main "Criticisms" section, although I do agree that the "other criticisms" section needs work. Before I remove the NPOV tag from the main section, can anyone point out to me what exactly is in violation of NPOV there? --Folksong 03:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Violations of NPOV Including an as yet,unsubstantiated charge without bothering to look into the otehr side. Including weasel words like "long asscociation with the Confederate flag," which insinuates guilt. Not to mention the fact of giving it three paragraphs and the appearance that it is a major issue, when it is not. I could equally smear, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry and many others on the left with similar stories, yet that would not be appropriate in an encyclopedia, unless they become a major issue. Giving undue weight to the macaque issue, and adding what the author believes what is meant. The last section is just listing the opinion of people who are political enemies of George Allen. Again I could do the same to people on the left. Ann Coulter makes money by doing this very thing, yet her opinions are just that and have no place in an encyclopedia other than mentioning them for news. The only line that belongs is point made about the morning after pill and that should be elaborated on and expanded. Giving both Allens' views, as well as, the views of his opponents. Not to mention the fact that several of the people who keep editing this, "Sterling Newberry" and "webbfor senate," identify themselves as democrat operatives.Nnoppinger 12:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Webbforsenate is clearly not a democratic operative--the user has continually vandalized this page by removing all criticism of Allen from the article. Regarding User:Stirling Newberry, please try to assume good faith; one can have a defined political bias and still desire to adhere to Wikipedia policy in Wikipedia articles. You may have a point in regard to undue weight. I think the controversies section is appropriate, given the media play of several of these in major media outlets, but it does currently comprise nearly half the article. I don't want to say that it certainly violates undue weight at the moment, as I would like to hear the comments of other editors on the matter. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 13:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

With respect to the controversies section, I've looked through it, here's my opinion of what's worth keeping. Done in no particular order, here we go:

  • I'm unsure if the stock in Barr Labs thing is worth keeping. Yes, it got an article in the WaPo, but not much else, and if it weren't for the fact that it was hapening right in their backyard it probably wouldn't even have gotten that. It's also something that I doubt will stick around. What I mean is: after this campaign season is over, will anyone care? If the answer is no, then it should only be in the article on the Virginia U.S. Senate election, 2006.
  • The confederate flag thing is definitely notable. I remember that hitting, it made quite a furor, major papers picked it up after TNR ran the article, and I doubt it's going to go away.
  • The "Other Criticisms" bit seems rather iffy. Why include those two allegations specifically? It's generally not all that notable if a politician of one party calls the views of the politician of another party stupid. That's par for the course. It seems to me that both of the criticisms in this section are just unimportant throwaway remarks.
  • The "macaca controversy". This is getting a lot of play right now, and it seems to be spreading. I'd say it's worth keeping in the article for now - if it completely fades away, it can be condensed and/or moved to the Virginia U.S. Senate election, 2006 article.
  • His sister's remarks. On the one hand, it is news-worthy when someone's own sister goes beyond just saying "he was a bully as a boy" and calls him an outright sadist. On the other, I don't know, it just doesn't feel like it entirely fits. Would it be better to incorporate this into the "Early Years" biographical section? Not the whole thing, but a sentence, like: "George Allen's sister has accused him of bullying and sadism during this time in his life."

So the bottom line is that I would get rid of the Barr Labs thing and the Other Criticisms section, keep the Macaca and the Confederate flag sections, and condense/rearrange the sister section. modargo 14:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think your points are convincing, modargo. I support your proposed changes. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 15:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I also agree. I agree the Barr Laboratories thing is notable enough for the campaign page , since it does seem to be a relatively lively part of the campaign. However, it would be better if it included whatever his campaign's response to the issue (which I don't know right now of the top of my head). I.E. did he sell the stock, issue a statement clarifying/apologizing or whatever. Lucky Adrastus 16:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

These changes have been implemented, the NPOV tag has been removed, and a section on the Barr Labs controversy has been added to the Virginia U.S. Senate election, 2006 article, with a summary of Allen's response to it. modargo 16:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice job! I like the Barr Labs section in the campaign article too. Lucky Adrastus 16:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I slightly re-wrote the sister's allegations part because I thought it now felt a little lacking in context. Now I'm wondering if maybe it should get it's own contorversies section, but in this (or a similiar) shortened form? It might be fairer to place it lower in the article under Controversies, than near the top under Early Years. I let you or someone else make that call. Lucky Adrastus 17:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with modargo, except for Barr Labs. I think this will become a controversial news item, because it shows some hypocrisy. It should be balanced with factual statements from both sides. I am not in a position to do so now, but I will do some work and cite the sources. I still think the confederate flag thing is being given a little too much coverage. It also needs to be balanced. There are some left wing assumptions about the flag and its connotations being made in this article. I would also like to see Allen's response to his sister. I am not familiar with her book and I am wondering if this over playing childhood pranks or actual sadism. I also question since it would apparently seem this behavior to carry over into adulthood, as there are no recent allegations. Nnoppinger 19:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that recent "politician X owned stock in company politician X is critical of!" controversies (both with George Allen and Ned Lamont) have borderline notability. Nonetheless, I suppose it has been covered by the media and should be mentioned, though my opinion is that it doesn't need its own section here, for now, unless it gets more media attention.
I'm looking at the Confederate Flag section now. Can you point out where the article makes "left-wing assumptions about the flag and its connoatations"? Perhaps I'm missing something.
I have no opinion on Allen's sister's book or its contents. I haven't read it. If your desire is to get someone to provide a link to relevant text from the book or otherwise confirm its contents, I'm with you there. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 20:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like to give you a little example of biased writing in the article. "...Long association with the Confederate Flag," implying the Confederate flag in a negative tone. An encyclopedia should avoid words and phrases that show bias. A word like "ilk" come to mind. This article is the not the proper place for a discussion over the merits of the flag. I think that the issue is also discussed in detail under the governor section. I could easily enter a section for Bill Clinton, that would have headline "Accused Rapist" and mention the J. Broderick story. However, by doing so would show an unscholarly bias. It would sensationalize and that is not what an encyclopedia should be doing. I would like to make changes to this and add under the Governor section a passage about Confederate History and Heritage Month, particularly that Virigina receives millions of dollars of tourism money for its Civil War sites. I will refrain from doing so pending additional comments from other wiki's.Nnoppinger 00:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I agree. I could say "John has a long association with Mother Teresa," for instance. I don't see the article debating the merits of the flag, but rather merely pointing out Allen's association with it. If the article did discuss the merits of the flag, however, I would agree that this was inappropriate. I'm just not seeing it here. (for what it's worth, Broderick is mentioned in the Clinton article, and should be, in my opinion) · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 00:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't see what's biased about that. It's a fact that he has a long associated with the confederate flag - it's documented extensively in the referenced articles. If you think that's a negative thing, that's solely becuase you think the confederate flag is a negative thing. If that sentence were biased, then reporting that anyone is associated with anything would be biased. Once again, reporting on the fact that a person is associated with something that some people consider negative is not biased. If it were, than any article that reported information about people associated with any controversial policy, organization, person, or symbol would be "biased", and I'm pretty sure that's not the case. modargo 00:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Using the Bill Clinton article you mentioned, I think a very appropriate comparison is to the "Investigation and impeachment" headings and that "Other controversies" section. Information being reported about his actions that some people considered scandalous and inappropriate. Would you call those sections of the Bill Clinton article biased? Presenting a clear discussion of a controversy about someone is not biased. modargo 00:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Looked at the Clinton "Broaderick" paragraph, which I thought was well written. It mentioned the scandal and presented the facts in a matter that would appear to be unbiased. It may be that I am overly sensitive.Nnoppinger 01:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The caption next to the picture of Allen pointing at the videographer is in error. It says 'Allen points to Webb volunteer, Sidarth, referring to him as a "Macaca".' -- This is not true. Allen didn't call Sidarth a macaca, he called him Macaca, as if that were his name. Big, big difference.

Editing frequency too quick

Since so many are editing this article lately, it's hard to add a good edit summary without getting an edit conflict. The reasons for my revert are: 1. POV wording (using the word "taunt"/"taunting" (again)) 2. No need for the whole quote. As long as the context is given, the whole quote is not needed. It's an article about a U.S. Senator first and foremost; let's not let this section overwhelm the article, when it will certainly be trimmed down later, as this incident dies down. Thanks. Ufwuct 00:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed the POV (I agree it was POV) but left the full quote. I find the context interesting and relevant, and believe it does not overwhelm the article. If anything in the Macaca section is to be excised, I think the quote is the last thing that should be. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 00:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm almost positive it will be trimmed later on, but I'm not going to get in race in editing or reverting. 100+ edits in the last 24 hours is a bit too much stress for me. And I'm not recommended losing the entire quote. Do you really think the whole thing is necessary? Especially since the video is available? That makes it more like a transcript than a quotation. Ufwuct 00:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


Xybernaut

Note: Jersyko removed this section, which I added to the article, seven minutes after it was added, with the edit summary "There's no evidence that Allen did anything illegal, and he has not been named in any shareholder suits" - let's wait and see if he is. until then, this is pure speculation."

If the objection is to putting this in the controversies section, then it should go elsewhere, NOT be removed entirely. It DOES provide new and newsworthy information about Allen, and it belongs in the article. I am posting it here for others to examine, comment on, and/or put back into the article, since presumably few people read it during the seven minutes it was in the article. John Broughton 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

On August 11, 1998, Allen joined the board of directors of Xybernaut, a company that planned to sell wearable, flip-screen computers. He remained on the board until December 2000. Allen said of the firm: "This is not science fiction -- the future is here now!"
Between its founding in 1990 and 2005, the company sold only 10,000 mobile computers, while racking up losses of $162 million, and issuing 200 million shares of stock. In September 1999, the company’s accounting firm, PricewaterhouseCoopers, issued a "going concern" letter with a grim assessment of the company’s financial health. The board of directors authorized the firing of the accounting firm, which was replaced by Grant Thornton, and authorized more stock sales.
Xybernaut filed for bankruptcy reorganization in July 2005, after an internal investigation reported that the firm’s chief executive officer and board chairman, former CIA agent Edward Newman, and his brother, the president and chief operating officer, had "improperly used substantial company funds for personal expenses," engaged in major unreported transactions, and hired family members whose roles with the company were not properly disclosed. As of mid-2006, the firm is embroiled in legal cases and federal investigations. It has about a dozen employees in Chantilly, Virginia, a small fraction of the 140 employed at the firm's peak.
There's no evidence that Allen did anything illegal, and he has not been named in any shareholder suits. But there were problems while he was there, in addition to the firing of the auditing firm, the huge losses, and the sale of large amounts of stock. Mark Bergman, a director of investor relations at Xybernaut during Allen’s tenure, was also the founder of financial public relations firm Access 1 Financial, which gave Xybernaut a "strong buy" recommendation. The firm boasted of that recommendation several times in in early 2000, and the stock zoomed more than 300 percent in value, peaking at $29.97 on March 2, 2000; it did not mention that Bergman wrote his reports for companies that paid him, and not as a credible financial analyst. Another promoter of the company’s stock, the Donner Corp, was charged in 2006 with issuing 25 reports between March 1999 and May 2002 that "contained fraudulent, exaggerated and unwarranted statements, and failed to include critical information about numerous companies’ financial and business operations," and also for failing to disclose that Donner had been paid by 51 companies it was touting, including Xybernaut, to prepare positive statements.
Allen was granted 110,000 options of company stock that, at their peak, were worth $1.5 million, but he never exercised those options, which expired 90 days after he left the board, and made almost no money from the stock, according to his communications director, John Reid. But he did benefit:
  • While Allen was serving on the Xybernaut board, he was also a partner at the law firm McGuire Woods LLP. In 1998 and 1999, that firm billed $315,925 to Xybernaut for legal work and was also granted 1,996 shares of stock in lieu of payment for services rendered. According to a disclosure form Allen filed on May 12, 2000, he earned $450,000 from McGuire Woods from January 1999 through April 2000, a period when the firm did work for Xybernaut.
  • Xybernaut officers -- four directors, an advisory board member, the comptroller, and an officer’s wife -- donated a total of $10,750 to Friends of George Allen in 1999 and 2000. And McGuire Woods staff donated $31,625 to the same fund during Allen’s 1999-2000 Senate campaign.
"It’s possible that those sorts of things could have gone on without a board of directors knowing about it, but it’s unlikely that a properly functioning board of directors would miss all of that," said David Skeel, a corporate law specialist at the University of Pennsylvania Law School. Allen has refused repeated requests to discuss his relationship to Xybernaut.

"Just a Gigolo: In the go-go ’90s, George Allen sat on the board of a Virginia tech company. Now, the company faces several class-action suits and an SEC insiders probe."

(the above source was listed as a reference for this deleted section)


You've provided only one source for all of this text. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Plus it's not a mainstream source by any stretch, maybe not even a reliable source. Also, as User:Jersyko said, it's speculation. When mainstream sources pick up the story, or if he's convicted or charged with anything, add more. For now, I don't think it warrants more than 1-2 sentences (something like "he was involved with Xy.. company which went bankrupt in 2005 and ... Allen's served on the board from 1998 to 2000."). Otherwise, it's just speculation and guilt by association. Thanks. Ufwuct 19:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

While I disagre with Ufwuct regarding the general usefulness of the Prospect as a source, I think s/he's basically right regarding the notability and relevance of the information. The article referenced even says that no charges have been brought against Allen and that he has not been directly implicated. We have to be careful with undue weight, too, especially when the section added is so long compared to the rest of the article. I might have a different reaction if a very short blurb were added, though I think I would still fall on the non-inclusion side for now given the completely undeveloped, speculative nature of the story. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 19:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Whether or not the Prospect is a reliable source depends on what you're relying on them for. As the sole source for speculative article? Then they're probably not reliable. For other cases, they are probably reliable enough to meet wikipedia standards. It just depends on the circumstances. I would say even more mainstream sources like the New York Times or Wall Street Journal wouldn't qualify in some cases (e.g., an editorial from either paper with unsourced information (and information that couldn't be backed up from other sources) was provided as the source for a statistic). Thanks. Ufwuct 20:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this is much better, John. It removes speculation in favor of merely reporting the facts. The only question, I suppose, could be undue weight, but I think it's safely on the right side of the line. · j e r s y k o talk · 19:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

mullets and their prevalence in the South

First: Does Sidarth have a mullet? I haven't seen evidence that he does. He might, but we need to verify this. In the pictures I've seen, the back of his head is not visible. Second: Pointing out that mullets are "common in the South" borders on original research, not least because it may be an erroneous assumption. They're prevalent in many rural areas, as a drive through the backwaters of many northern states will reveal. It's also irrelevant to the article. I see it's been put back again, so I'd be interested to see some evidence of this elusive mullet. Thanks.--Birdmessenger 23:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've done some research into this very important issue and found that Sidarth describes his own haircut as a mullet. Fine. I still have to object to the text noting that these are "common in the South." --Birdmessenger 23:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
He calls his own haircut a mullet... The poor kid must have missed 1985 - 1995: The Age of the Mullet. Now THOSE were mullets. (See Billy Ray Cyrus). --AStanhope 23:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Business up front and party in the back, not that I would have ever had one. :) --StuffOfInterest 23:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Governor

Removed the last sentence" ...Gilmore repudiated..." as it is factually incorrect. As reported in the January 31, 2004, Washingtom Times, "Confederate History Month Rises Again" Christina Bellantoni —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nnoppinger (talk • contribs) .

Put it back. Cited source. [1] TNR is reliable. Please provide factual evidence to contradict. modargo 00:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I cited the article in the proceeding statement. I will also add the Richmond Times Dispatch, 3/15/2002 Michael Hardy column, "Warner Nixes Confederate History Month." The New Republic article is an op-ed piece from an op-ed publication that has history of sketchy fact checking. I will again remove the sentence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nnoppinger (talk • contribs) .

Claiming that there are articles that refute a statement does not in and of itself refute a statement. Provide links to or pictures of the articles. Right now, all you have is hearsay. That is not sufficient. modargo 00:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

As you wish.

removed copyright violation

Would you like the other article?Nnoppinger 00:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Nnoppinger, please don't reproduce the entire article here, as it raises copyright concerns. Perhaps provide a web link to the article instead, and quote it selectively to make your point. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 01:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
That article specifically backs up the claim that Gilmore changed the proclamation to one about both sides of the Civil War (i.e., it denounced slavery in addition to celebrating Confederate culture) from Allen's that only commemorated Confederate culture (and did not mention slavery). modargo 01:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC) Also, please just provide a link to the article. modargo 01:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

But again that is fat cry from "repudiation." For three of those years under Gilmore the proclamation stayed exactly the same as it was under Allen>Nnoppinger 01:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It is true that "repudiated" is somewhat POV. As such, I have changed it to "changed". modargo 01:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the change. I think it takes out the POV.Nnoppinger 01:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I've edited out the "citation needed" flags that were ALL OVER the governor section, some of which were just assinine (Northern Virginia, boomed during this time period, particularly in the technology area-not the sort of thing that needs a source). It looked terrible, and seemed like some partisan just wanted to question everything on the page. If someone wants to add some back, pls do but dont [citation needed] every line in a paragraph. JamesBenjamin 00:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Merge of S.R. Sidarth article

The S.R. Sidarth article is essentially a copy of the Macaca incident section of this page. Sidarth is essetially NN outside of this context, so I think it would be appropriate to merge any extra pertinent info from the Sidarth article (I'm not sure there is any) and then replace the page with a redirect to George Felix Allen#macaca controversy. Any takers? Richardjames444 18:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Sidarth is, at the moment, nn outside of his connection with Allen. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 18:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Agree with merge. S.R. Sidarth is not himself notable, only his role in this incident is. modargo 18:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Sidarth is not notable except for association with Allen and this controversy. Sandover 19:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Very much agree. --StuffOfInterest 19:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Just looked again and I don't think there is anything there worth merging. All the important facts are already in the article. It should probably just be put to AfD and be done with. --StuffOfInterest 19:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Concur with this judgement. I took a look at the S.R. Sidarth article and I do not see any notable information in it that is not already in the controversies section of this article. modargo 19:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
No question that he's NN at the present time except for this incident. Stirling Newberry 23:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

So case closed, then. The only information in the Sidarth biography not reproduced on Allen's page is that he is 20 years old, that he currently attends the University of Virginia, that he will begin his senior year there in September 2006, and that he was a 2003 graduate of the Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Alexandria, VA. All of that came from a Washington Post article.[1] I think most of this is irrelevant except for his age, which I added to the Allen article after making the merge. Sandover 19:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I reverted the change to a redirect. Sidarth is not a synonym to Allen so it just doesn't seem the way to go. I've gone ahead and created an AfD entry for him. If a few people put their votes in early an admin is likely to come along and close it out right away. --StuffOfInterest 19:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Also from the Sidarth entry, but important: "Sidarth was interviewed by CNN on August 15th, 2006, and said he was 'disappointed that someone like a Senator of the United States could use something [so] completely offensive.' He disputed a claim made by Allen campaign staff that he would not give his name, saying he introduced himself to Allen earlier in the week." See YouTube. [2] Sandover 19:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there any verification-aside from Sidarth's assertion-that he did give the Allen campaign his full name?
In other words, a second source buttressing his claim?
From what I've heard it's a point of contention.

Ruthfulbarbarity 23:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not Sidarth gave his "full name" is a bit of a distraction from the controversy, don't you think? As I understand his interview, Sidarth says he shook Allen's hand and gave his name as just that one word, 'Sidarth' (he apparently introduces himself to others that way). I don't think it really matters whether he gave Allen his initials, too. Isn't the point that in an on-camera interview, made before the online version of the New York Times story on August 15th (for which John Reid claimed Sidarth never identified himself to the Allen campaign, therefore justifying a nickname), Sidarth says he met Allen, shook his hand, and gave his name? Sandover 23:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I redirected the article to George Felix Allen#Macaca controversy for now. Depending on the result of some other conversations, I might change it to the Virginia U.S. Senator election, 2006#The monkey/macaca controversy at some point, which would be substantively the same. Richardjames444 01:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

My point is that this controversy hinges-to a great extent-upon whether or not Sidarth's word is reliable.
Namely, did he actually give Senator Allen his name, either partially or in full?
If he says he gave Allen his name, but no independent authority comes forward to verify this statement, how can it be described as a statement of fact?

Ruthfulbarbarity 02:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Jennifer Allen's book

We need page citations for this section:

Allen's younger sister Jennifer Allen alleges in her memoir Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter (Random House Publishing, 2000) that Allen sadistically attacked his younger siblings during his childhood. [3] She claims that Allen held her by her feet over Niagara Falls; struck her boyfriend in the head with a pool cue; threw his brother Bruce through a glass sliding door; tackled his brother Gregory, breaking his collarbone; and dragged Jennifer upstairs by her hair. In the book, she wrote, "George hoped someday to become a dentist . . . George said he saw dentistry as a perfect profession--getting paid to make people suffer."

C56C 00:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Found the citations/quotes[2]:

Explaining why she is scared of heights, Ms. Allen writes that “Ever since my brother George held me over the railing at Niagara Falls, I’ve had a fear of heights.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 43]

Referring to George’s relationship with one of her boyfriends: “My brother George welcomed him by slamming a pool cue against his head.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 178]

Referring to George’s early leadership skills, Jennifer wrote: “We all obeyed George. If we didn't, we knew he would kill us. Once, when Bruce refused to go to bed, George hurled him through a sliding glass door. Another time, when Gregory refused to go to bed, George tackled him and broke his collarbone. Another time, when I refused to go to bed, George dragged me up the stairs by my hair.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 22]

Referring to George’s early career aspirations, Jennifer wrote “George hoped someday to become a dentist. George said he saw dentistry as a perfect profession - getting paid to make people suffer.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 22]

Referring to George’s habit of terrorizing a Green Bay Packer fan in their neighborhood, Jennifer wrote that the fan’s mailbox often “lay smashed in the street, a casualty of my brothers' drive-by to school in the morning. George would swerve his Mach II Mustang while Gregory held a baseball bat out the window to clear the mailbox off its post. . . . Lately, the Packers fan had resorted to stapling a Kleenex box to the mailbox post to receive his mail. George's red Mustang screeched up beside us, the Packers fan's Kleenex mailbox speared on the antenna.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 16]

Where does 'Macaca controversy' section belong?

Noticed this morning that the bulk of this section had been shunted over to the Virginia United States Senate election, 2006 article. That section was outdated -- it looked like a copy and paste of an old version of this article -- so I got what was edited out here and pasted it over there. I also rv'ed this article, however, until folks could powwow here about whether cutting this material out of the George Allen article makes sense.

Any thoughts? --GGreeneVa 14:51, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me it's part of the election, and would be better served over there. If the information here is more recent, I'd move it over to there.--Rosicrucian 15:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, it seems much more appropriate in the Allen article than the election article. This was something Allen did. The fact that it was something he did because he was running for an elected office is important, of course, but its affect on the election, if any, is undetermined. Additionally, the election article might raise undue weight concerns by including a long description of macaca (instead of a summary with a link to the relevant subsection in this article). · j e r s y k o talk · 15:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
It was an event on the campaign trail of the election, involving Allen and one of Webb's aides. If anything, it's too big a section for Allen's article, so I think that's undue weight if anything. The election article is an actual current event article, and thus I have no problem with it exploring the incident in more detail than this article.
After the election is over, this section will likely be just a footnote in Allen's article, and condensed greatly. Why not give it the attention it deserves in the election article instead, where said work will be preserved?--Rosicrucian 15:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
As there's been no further dissent on this, I've merged the info into the election article, made sure it's the most current form there, and truncated the section here with a main article link.--Rosicrucian 20:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

POV concerns

This article is not NPOV at all. Indeed, I think it approaches a smear job on Allen, because presents the facts of all the George Allen controversies in the most negative light possible. Oh, there are gratuitous swipes at Allen as well ("In 1994, George Allen endorsed a convicted felon, Oliver North, for the U.S. Senate), but what I am most concerned about is the fact that all of these mini-controversies are presented without any attempt to present Allen's side of the story. Allon FambrizziAllon Fambrizzi

I agree. The same can be said for other articles in Wikipedia. Do you have any suggestions for improving the article, such as giving "Allen's side" of his storied affection for the confederate flag and his love of cute memorabilia such as the hangman's noose?--RattBoy 09:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, which controversies do you have a problem with, and what's the phrases or lack of perspective you have a problem? Arbusto 02:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I'll wait a little while longer before I pull the POV tag off, but POV issues must be discussed if you put the tag on. Arbusto 17:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The POV nature of this article is currently being discussed in two places. Please see the section called POV for the suggestions being made to improve the article to NPOV standards. Thanks. Ufwuct 17:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Southern Poverty Law Center

Does it qualify as a liberal advocacy group? If so does that make opposing racism a strictly liberal value? I dont think so. Thats why I question the edit. Maybe I missed your point. Jasper23 05:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)