Talk:Geography of the Palestinian territories

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How has this article been moved around and deleted entirely without any discussion? Anyone care to explain what's been going on? Tiamut 23:34, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Article restored

The article isn't pretty, but it does contain information that should not be deleted without discussion. Tewfik, please do not just delete articles using redirects without discussion, especially if you don't merge the information into the articles you are redirecting too. --Abnn 01:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The article is missing sources though, that is an issue. --Abnn 01:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Much of the information on this page is from the CIA Factbook. The contents of this page is very similar to the "Political Geography" section of the "Geography of Israel" article, thus there is precedent for keeping it. --Abnn 01:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused by your renaming this "Geography of the Palestinian territories". My understanding of the naming standards was that Geographic information would be dealt with as West Bank or Gaza Strip, which are geographic areas, and not by Palestinian territories, which is a controversial political term with differing meanings. Cheers, TewfikTalk 06:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

There is an ongoing effort in WP to blur the lines between the region of Palestine (a geographic region) and Palestinian territories, a POV political term. ←Humus sapiens ну? 22:39, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links for article

Geography of the Palestinian territories (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

The above links can be used to figure out the history of the article. --Timeshifter 00:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Humus sapiens reverted the page back to a redirect today. See this diff. That was unnecessary. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palestine/Archive2. Abnn and Tewfik seemed to have come to some kind of agreement. --Timeshifter 00:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I like having the page with the 2 geography links on top. There is no need to redirect to West Bank and Gaza Strip. That page is good for disambiguation, though. So I added it as a "see also" link. --Timeshifter 00:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geography of the West Bank and Gaza Strip

[Later note. Concerning Geography of the West Bank and Gaza Strip this section is copied from Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Palestine/Archive2#Geography_of_the_West_Bank_and_Gaza_Strip and shows that Abnn wanted an article named Geography of the Palestinian territories. Here is the last version he worked on. He did allow that article to basically be just a pointer page to separate geography articles for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. --Timeshifter 20:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)]

Geography of the West Bank and Gaza Strip (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Tewfik deleted this article. See diff.

On the article talk page I don't see any discussion of this deletion. Was there an official AfD (Article for Deletion) process for this deletion? If there were, then it would normally be under this name:

There is nothing there. Was there another location for an AfD for this article? Talk page history shows nothing was discussed on the talk page about this deletion and redirect:

Does anybody know anything about this? I would like to know before this gets reported by me or others to WP:ANI. For more info see Wikipedia:Guide to deletion. --Timeshifter 23:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the article. The contents of the article are basically identical to the contents of the "Political geography" section of the Geography of Israel article, thus there is precedent for keeping it around. I am confused as to why Tewfik got rid of the article in the fashion that he did, it doesn't make much sense given that he didn't actually merge any of the information anywhere. --Abnn 01:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) That is not accurate at all. I didn't delete anything (nor do I have the ability to), but reversed a merge which doesn't at all fit with naming convention. There was always a link to Geography of the West Bank on its main entry, West Bank, and I added a similar link to Geography of the Gaza Strip to its main entry, Gaza Strip. I also added both to {{Palestinians}}. I'm frankly a bit taken aback by the accusations here; a minimal amount of research, or at least an attempt to contact me would've been in order. TewfikTalk 01:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed that you have created two new Geography articles one for the West Bank and one for the Gaza Strip, that's better than just getting rid of the article. Part of the issue is you didn't explain yourself to those who had the page on their watchlist. Also the redirect didn't led directly to the articles you created as a replacement, which is sort of strange one has to admit. Also in your reply above, you say that you "reversed a merge which doesn't at all fit with naming convention." Can you show me which merge you reversed? --Abnn 01:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a choice of names for this article:
Additionally we have other articles in the same general pattern:
To me the logical name would be Geography of the Palestinian territories as it isn't disputed that Gaza Strip and the West Bank form the territories and one article is easier to maintain than two. Also this fits with the general naming scheme proposed above. The minor squabbles about what exactly is the Palestinian territories in these two areas (because of the wall, seam zone and other stuff) is still going to be contentious whether it is in one article or two. Also, I do want to apologize for jumping on this issue Tewfik, as it is clear that you didn't just redirect its contents out of existence (and BTW the contents are directly copied from the CIA Factbook with very little polish on top.) --Abnn 01:48, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I can see how someone might have been confused had they seen only the one edit, but a reaction assuming good faith would have been to ask me what my rationale was, and not to assume that I was nefariously sabotaging, the reasoning behind which I can't even really construct (was I scarred by a deathly boring Geography instructor in grade-school perhaps?). AN/I no less. The redirects, by the same user, appear in the history.[1][2] As for what to call it, since it deals with an issue of geography, I believe the previous names make the most sense, especially per the categorisation above. TewfikTalk 01:52, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Those are almost year-old redirects, Tewfik. 2 wrongs don't make a right. Both you in May 2007 and User:Robin Hood 1212 in July 2006 broke wikipedia guidelines by deleting pages and putting the info elsewhere without asking first on the talk pages. If you do it again, I will report you to WP:ANI. Wikipedia guidelines ask that people be warned before going to noticeboards. So that is why I warn. You have also tried to speedy-delete map categories with the name "Palestinian Territories" in them, after trying to depopulate the categories of the map images. See: Category talk:Maps of the Palestinian territories.
I hope we can come to some kind of more-permanent resolution of these naming issues concerning West Bank, Gaza Strip, and the Palestinian Territories.
Geography of the Gaza Strip (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)
Geography of the West Bank (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)
Geography of the West Bank and Gaza Strip (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)
The above talk links show that no discussion occurred before the article name changes, redirects, moves, deletions, etc.. --Timeshifter 08:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Only admins can delete articles. I'm not an admin. Please refrain from further WP:CIVIL violating falsehoods. Is there any other article content you wish to discuss? TewfikTalk 02:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not uncivil to point out that you deleted the article by redirecting it, and then not merging the info into the article you redirected it to. All without discussion. Please stop wikilawyering. See: Wikipedia:WikiLawyering. The page you redirected it too, West Bank and Gaza Strip, did not have the info that was deleted. One had to make more clicks among multiple choices to find the info. Merges and redirects are supposed to be discussed first also. Please see the wikipedia guidelines. --Timeshifter 12:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Only admins can delete articles. I am not an admin. Talk pages are for the discussion of article content, not other editors. Do you have any article content issues you wish to discuss? TewfikTalk 03:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Me and Tewfik have been discussing these divisions of the region again on our talk pages. I do agree with Tewfik in a fashion, in that these divisions, Gaza Strip and the West Bank, can be covered in separate articles as he has done. What I didn't agree with is the way that joint article was turned into a redirect that didn't go anywhere that useful with regards to geography. To rectify the situation, I have created a Geography of the Palestinian territories article as the main landing pad for people interested in the general geography of this non-country or whatever it is with the hope that it can be expanded with a joint summary or overview of the territories geography while giving people the option to go to the specific geography pages on the Gaza Strip and the West Bank if they want more details. I think this is a pretty decent solution. --Abnn 08:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I am happy with the result of your discussions. --Timeshifter 22:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blanking the page and redirecting against consensus

Those who are blanking the page are asked to cease doing so. If you believe this page should be deleted, take it to AfD. Alternatively, you can re-open the discussion. Tiamat 17:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above has two editors (Tewfik, Humus Sapiens) who explictly support the article containing just the two "see also"-like links, and a third editor (Timeshifter) who says he likes that format. You seem to be the only one insisting on inserting non-consensus material - please cease this, and get consensus for your changes on the Talk page first. Isarig 17:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Until I copied over the above section in blue in the last day, it was near impossible to follow the reasoning for the many variations, reversions, deletions, etc.. So Tiamut was correct to demand an explanation. Abnn settled on the version I linked to in my introduction above the section in blue. I agreed with it. That version was much clearer than all the previous versions. From that discussion I believe Abnn said he didn't really care either way whether the geography articles were combined or in separate articles. As long as people could get to the geography info from the logical title of Geography of the Palestinian territories. --Timeshifter 20:58, 14 August 2007 (UTC)