Talk:Geographic distribution of Portuguese

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[edit] Various comments

Until then, it had been a home language, and communication was done through trade languages based on Tupi and influenced by Latin and Portuguese.
What is a "home language" and a "trade language"?

Not confusing at all. most spoken and first language are very different things. There are aticles that can help you: First language, home language, second language. Trade language is used in the sense that it is the language used for communication with the native people to trade. -Pedro 19:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right, and I had already deleted my silly doubt.

[edit] Extiction of Iberian languages planned?

I do have one more comment, though (at least):

A strong romanization led to the complete extinction of all the former native languages, as planned by Roman Emperors such as Caesar Augustus.

What is the source for claiming that Augustus or other Roman emperors actually planned the extinction of the local languages? I had never heard about this. FilipeS 19:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Well, filipe, I think Augustus did not planned any extinction. He was interesting in the development and stability of the Roman Empire. Thus the spread of the Latin culture and language were important to reach his goals. See a biography of Caesar Augustus or the history of that period for more information on the Romanization policy. look at this map: [1]. A curiosity: Britain and the Basque country area were not part of the empire then.
  • Oh, now I know why you asked that. it's a misinterpretation of yours. Augustus made a strong Romanization, not a persecution against native languages! but that obviously lead to the extinction of the native languages.--Pedro 23:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linguas Gerais Pidgins?

Thanks for the explanation on "home language". Were the línguas gerais really pidgins, though? FilipeS 19:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

  • they were trade languages, but not pidgins (these languages were based on native languages, not Portuguese). The Portuguese thought there was a common language in Brazil, so they used a Portuguese/Latin-influenced version of it.--Pedro 22:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Type of Portuguese preferred by Africans

Although they can understand Portuguese from Brazilian T.V. stations, locals still want to learn standard European Portuguese (including some Chinese), as do East Timor and the PALOP countries.

Needs to be sourced! FilipeS 19:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Galician

This probably deserves a title of its own...

About the debate on whether Galician is within the Portuguese language, or if it is a different, but close language (as politically the Spanish administration does), see Galician. Galician has been accepted orally as Portuguese in the European Union Parliament and used as such by, among others, the Galician representatives José Posada, Camilo Nogueira and Xosé Manuel Beiras.

I think it's problematic to state that it's "the Spanish administration" which considers Galician a different, though close language, to Portuguese. As far as I know, Galicia has an elected regional government, and it is Galician institutions which have decided the status of Galician with respect to Portuguese (José Posada's symbolic act notwithstanding). FilipeS 19:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portuguese in Africa

The Portuguese language especially grew in use after the independence of Portugal's former [African] colonies. Independence movements from Guinea-Bissau to Mozambique saw it as an instrument to achieve their countries' development and national unity. The residents of these countries use the standard European Portuguese.

Are we sure about their using "the standard European Portuguese"? Certainly, Africans do not, generally, have a European pronunciation, and I know their Portuguese has much African vocabulary that European Portuguese does not. This should be checked. FilipeS 19:42, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

  • well... upper class speak a very European accent. (there are sources for that on the net. it's common sense, really. As for the rest of the population, interestingly, the accent of men and women can be very different (in Angola and São Tomé). That what I've noticed, but I found no study about that. Women speaking with a more Angolan-like accent. (POV: probably women do not study or are more engaged in their culture.)--Pedro 23:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Madeira and the Azores

Independence movements from Guinea-Bissau to Mozambique saw it as an instrument to achieve their countries' development and national unity. Azores and Madeira are among the regions where Portuguese is the official language. The residents of these countries use the standard European Portuguese.

Why are Azores and Madeira being listed as African regions? Aren't they part of Portugal/Europe? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ettiago (talk • contribs)

Resolved.
The Ogre 15:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous user 195.23.216.224 reverted me arguing that "Geographically speaking (that's what we're talking here) Madeira is in the African Continent". I have reverted him arguing that "Madeira is not considered by the Portuguese governement or people to be in Africa - it is historicaly, politicaly, socialy and culturaly in Europe, even if it's technically in the African Plate". Hope that settles it. The Ogre 17:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PALOP

I see no need whatsoever to merge the PALOP article to this one. What's the point? It's an independent organization of coutries with specific characteristics, and the article isn't even that much of a stub. One article deals with linguistic issues, the other with political ones (try merging the Commonwealth with the geographic distribution of English). I totally disagree with the merge. Waldir talk 13:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

PALOP: Países Africanos de Língua Oficial Portuguesa, African Countries of Portuguese Official Language. It's got everything to do with language. The proper analog to the Commonwealth would be the CPLP, not the PALOP.
Also, "PALOP" is a Portuguese acronym not well recognized in English. Articles in the English language Wikipedia should have English names. FilipeS (talk) 12:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
You're right, the exact analog would be CPLP. But then again, why not merging CPLP into this article too, for the same reasons? Waldir talk 12:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, the first thing that drew my attention was the name of the article PALOP, which I'm sure is incomprehensible to most English speakers. We should not be so parochial as to assume that people who do not speak Portuguese are familiar with our acronyms.
A good reason to keep the Community of Portuguese Language Countries article separate from this is that it is indeed its own political entity, not just a label for a linguistic reality. I'm not sure that the PALOP are a political entity as well (this may be simply my ignorance). If it is an official political organization, then I'm O.K. with keeping it separate from this article, but I think it should be renamed. Regards. FilipeS (talk) 12:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
It is indeed a political entity. Many cooperation policies exist among the countries and bewtween PALOP and Portugal, for instance (Actually, I benefit from one of such agreements myself, as a cape-verdean graduate student in Portugal). But you're totally right in saying that the article should be renamed. I understand your point, and agree. So, what name do you propose? "African Countries of Official Portuguese Language"? Waldir talk 13:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for being a little insisting, but the fact that there are protocols between PALOP countries does not necessarily mean that the PALOP exists officially as an organization. You spoke earlier of the Commonwealth; the PALOP could be an unofficial community, like the Anglosphere, or Latin America.
It would be nice if we could find some reference that confirmed the existence of the PALOP as a political entity. Do you know if they have an official website? I looked for it, but, although I find many pages that mention the PALOP, I did not find a website of the PALOP itself. (The CPLP has one.)
Still, in the same spirit as the Anglosphere article, I guess there could be a PALOP article. If they had a website with a version in English, we could use their own translation to name the article...
I'm withdrawing the merger proposal. If you can find an official translation of PALOP into English, feel free to rename the article. FilipeS (talk) 14:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Insisting? Discussion is the path to enlightment! :)
Regarding the protocols, I was thinking of the external ones, rather than the internal ones. For example, in Portugal people from the PALOP have less strict conditions regarding immigrant laws. There are many other examples like this -- I'm sure some of them illustrate better my point. I don't think Portugal would sign agreements with each one of the 5 countries of the PALOP to implement such measures, but rather sign a protocol with the representative entity. Of course, they could have done it one by one, and I'm not sure they havent -- actually, after this discussion I'm starting to have doubts that the organization is an official, political one.
But in any case, I think we both agree that the article's worth keeping, since it has its own particularities, covers a specific part of the portuguese speaking community, and even if unofficial, is frequently acknowledged in the media and is noteworthy since portuguese is spoken not only in an informal basis, but is legally the official language of the countries.
About the translation to english, I never heard of any, but I'll try to find out something. Regards, Waldir talk 15:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, apparently the most usual name is "Portuguese Speaking African Countries", as can be shown by the examples below:
What do you think? Waldir talk 15:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
If you know how to move an article, go ahead. Include a few of the more serious links as references. FilipeS (talk) 16:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Y Done. I moved the article, and corrected all (ufff!) incoming links. Waldir talk 18:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Good job. Just a note: you don't need to worry too much about changing the incoming links. I just changed a few for esthetic reasons. What you should be on the look out for are double redirects. (But don't worry, there aren't any double redirects to the new page; I checked. ;-)) Regards. FilipeS (talk) 20:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, there were, but I corrected them ;) But as a perfectionist, I couldnt resist to change all the other ones too xD. Btw, take a look at the edit summary of this edit. Apparently, the acronym's more well-known than we though, huh? ;-)
One last note: I forgot to add the external links to the article. Can you take care of that? I'll have to leave the PC for a while now. Waldir talk 21:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Y Done. :-) FilipeS (talk) 21:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removing Galician from the calculations

The infobox data for Spain treats Galician as a variant of the Portuguese language. We should alter that, as it's blatant Portuguese POV (Galician is officially recognized as a separate language. Its classification as a dialect of Portuguese is disputed and mostly supported by the Portuguese linguist community only). Húsönd 13:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)