Talk:Geneva Conference (1954)
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[edit] signing
Added the line that only France and the DRV signed the document. The online Encyclopedia Brit. states that the agreement was between .... But the Pentagon Papers, which includes the text of the Accords show only Brigadier-General DELTEII of France and TA-QUANG BUU Vice-Minister of National Defence of the Democratic Republic of Viet-Nam signing the document.
LN
What the hell is this? Diem was not clamping down on "supporters of the Geneva agreement," he was clamping down on armed militants who wanted Vietnam reunited under the Hanoi regime at all costs. I'm sure they would've loved an election since Uncle Ho would've won, but that doesn't diminish the Viet Cong's dedication to "revolutionary violence." Ruy's revisionist babble was rightly changed, and hopefully will be so again. J. Parker Stone 11:42, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- So like Eisenhower, you admit that "I'm sure they [the opponents of Diem's government] would've loved an election since Uncle Ho would've won". So we support elections only when we're pretty sure "our" side will win? What kind of commitment to democracy is that? To justify cancelling the election mandated by the Geneva Accords because the likely victors were dedicated to "revolutionary violence" is akin to supporting the British at the Battles of Lexington and Concord because the Brits were just trying to disarm violent revolutionaries.
- Of course, the analogy isn't perfect - unlike the Americans in Vietnam, the British had built up, subsidized and defended the American colonies for generations and thus had a legitimate stake in them; and popular support for independence from the British Empire was nowhere near as solid at the time as was popular support in Vietnam for Ho Chi Minh in 1954-56; I doubt Hancock, or Adams, or anyone else in the Continental Congress would have won a colonies-wide popular election on the platform of independence in 1775 (whether or not slaves, women and unpropertied men were enfranchised). --Davecampbell 18:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
"So we support elections only when we're pretty sure "our" side will win? What kind of commitment to democracy is that?" YES!!!! What is so difficult about this policy, other than the temptation it offers to minds of a confused morality? By the time of the signing of the Geneva Convention it was quite obvious that Communist "independence" movements had an interest in elections only to the extent that they conferred a patina of (international) legitimacy on governments that intended to be - as they in fact became - totalitarian. If it is anti-democratic to deny elections on the grounds that to hold them would result in the end of democracy, it is also anti-democratic to allow elections that would surely result in the end of democracy. But in a world of actual alternatives, none of which are ideal, what do you do? If, under these circumstances, you do not support the Diem of actual history, then you are simply unfit to make these decisions. The refusal on the pro-Vietminh/anti-anti-Communist side to acknowledge the actual character of the regime and its conduct, preposterously asserting that they were mere classical liberal democratic movements of national independence, is at this point enough to absent them from the debate. We who have eyes and ears are no longer as ignorant as those in the 1960s, you fools. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.197.252 (talk) 17:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Migration
Saying that "some move[ing] north and some move[ing] south" is not showing the whole picture. Most migrants moved south to escape the repressive communist regime. DHN 17:56, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
- If we want the whole picture, we should also take account that the Vietnamese Catholics who moved south were largely seen as collaborators with the French colonial occupation (analogous to "Tories" during the American Revolution, with the above caveats), and were mainly urban middle-class and therefore mobile; while the bulk of the Viet Minh's support were farmers whose entire livelihood was tied up in the bit of land they farmed, and urban workers and poor. --Davecampbell 18:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Background
The article currently states:
This was significant because it was also the first time that a western nation was defeated by a South-Eastern Communist country.
First, North Vietnam was not a "Communist" country - or any other kind of country, for that matter - at the time of Dien Bien Phu. It didn't exist until after, and as a result of, the battle - as a temporary partition accepted by treaty, conditioned upon the holding of a reunifying election in 1956 (scuttled by the U.S. and the RVN).
The Dien Bien Phu page (as of this date) puts it more correctly, "
Dien Bien Phu was "the first time that a non-European colonial independence movement had evolved through all the stages from guerrilla bands to a conventionally organized and equipped army able to defeat a modern Western occupier in pitched battle."
Secondly, I think you mean "Southeast Asian" rather than "South-Eastern".
--Davecampbell 18:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
- no this stuff has nothing to do. the idea before this line was with "it was the first time" was to point out that the algerian war started in 1954 because of the issue of the indochinese war. it was preceded by uprising in morocco as well. that was the idea (i think).
Second, there was no need for "holding of a reunifying election" since Vietnam was already unified per the State of Vietnam in 1954, it was because of ho chi minh that the country was divided once again, north COMMUNIST and south FREE (I guess). Paris By Night 01:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
"A referendum on his leadership netted him 98% of the vote, with 133% in Saigon." Is this an error? No one can get more than 100% of a vote. angela26 06:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
- No it's not an error. The referendum was rigged. See 1955 State of Vietnam referendum. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] (even though it was the French)
i removed that part. 207.29.128.130 19:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- what was that supposed to mean? :) Paris By Night 01:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] not neutral
such phrases like:
- "Communist and freedom fighter were synonymous in the minds of many Vietnamese" ever been in many vietnamese minds?
- "Diem continued to make poor decisions" ho, I guess only ho chi minh made GREAT decisions. that's why all political parties were forbidden in vietnam.
Paris By Night 01:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
- 1) yes, at that time, majority of Vietnamese think so, at least it is what my grandma told me (born 1930 so she waas 15 in 1945, old enough I guess)
2)Would you be happy with "Diem continued to make poorer decisions than Mr Ho"? Mgz 09:29, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
That is what your grandma told you!? This is a reasonable standard, you think? You have just disqualified your own opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.197.252 (talk) 17:15, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Not the first time
I think you can argue that Haiti, Ethiopia, and the United States were earlier examples of a local force defeating a colonial power.
Roadrunner 16:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
