Talk:General Tso's chicken

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[edit] General Tso isn't Colonel Sanders!

I don't know why the whole article keeps talking about General Tso never tasting this dish. Judging by how the taste and style of the chicken, it is quite obvious that it is just like those fake Chinese food, like bourbon chicken! I mean, it's the same thing as "Betty Crocker's Black Forest Cake"! That dish has never existed in China. Period. Any of you just go to China, or Hong Kong, and you'll be surprised that there is no broccoli, the rice is pure-white, the chicken isn't deep-fried and honey-glaced, and there's no fortune cookies. --Jw21 aka PenaltyKillah^talk 09:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I've been to China three times and have seen this dish on the menu in many restaurants. I have also seen broccoli served.

And, fried rice exists in China (but it isn't eaten as much as white rice). I hate it when people think that they are right and everyone else is wrong. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.243.42 (talk • contribs)

[edit] General Gau's Chicken

Whoever edited the blurb about General Gau's Chicken in, do you happen to have a link supporting this? :) GregNorc (talk)

Here you go; this is a tinyurl to a Google search - numerous sources are at hand. FYI - the reason that I've put this in is because when I moved to Boston, I was wondering why everyone calls it General Gau's Chicken. And if you wanted to know who wrote it, why didn't you just check the history? :-) --Bletch 20:31, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Actually, a big thank you for including the blurb about General Gau--this was the whole reason I was looking it up. I first ate it in Boston, loved it, then moved to Syracuse, NY and noticed that it was always called General Tso's--I never even realized it was a regional thing. Azareel 17:11, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Funny, I grew up in Syracuse NY, and moved to Boston and wondered why it wasn't called General Tso's. --Bletch 12:26, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the dish

It says that the dish came to America in about 1970. From where did it come? The external link at the bottom suggests that it originated in America. --Holdek 23:42, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

According to E2 [1], there are multiple stories of its origin. I'll modify the article accordingly. --Bletch 18:30, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Since a few days have passed without discussion, I'll assume that above changes resolve the factual dispute. --Bletch 23:53, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, the change resolves the factual dispute. --Holdek 05:19, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

Does Eileen Yin-Fei Lo (Chinese Kitchen) mention any verifiable sources for the claim that the dish existed before 1970? Nobody else I can find seems to have any documentary evidence that the dish existed before then, and if she doesn't give any evidence, we may want to mention the fact. There aren't any google hits for "ancestral hall chicken" besides wikipedia, and the only non-wikipedia hit for "zongtang ji" claims that the dish is from the US. The E2 links say that Lo says that the dish is actually modified from an earlier recipe for chung ton gai. When I googled for "chung ton gai", half the links say that Lo called General Tso's a copy of chung ton gai, and the other half say that Lo said it was "based on" chung ton gai. If anybody has access to a copy of Lo's book, that would be really helpful. -- Victor Lighthill 15:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Lo does mention her theory behind the origins; what she actually says is that the dish is always "some version" of a Hunan recipe known as "jeung bau gai kau", a descriptive name of the dish, that was eventually called "chung tong gai", meaning "ancestor meeting place chicken". She then goes on to say that the dish is usually poorly done in Chinese-American restaurants (because they use leftover chicken pieces) and gives a recipe for the "classic" dish as it is cooked in Hunan. For those interested, the recipe she gives is actually very savory with a touch of Hoisin sauce, and not quite as sweet as the kind I've had. Baronsabato 06:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Eileen Lo didn't use "zongtang ji" as the name of the "classic Hunan dish". "Chung tong gai", which she did use, was changed to zongtang ji in an edit where it was pointed out in an inline comment that chung tong gai was Cantonese, but the people in Hunan speak Mandarin. A later edit added a bit more to the inline comment. To recapitulate those inline comments:

chung ton gai is erroneous; that is a Cantonese reading, but people in Hunan speak Mandarin

chung ton gai is erroneous; that is a Cantonese reading, but people in Hunan speak Mandarin. Other sources in Taiwan have called it a Hunan classic as well (General Zuo was from Hunan), calling it 左公雞 zuo gong ji ("gong" is the honorific used for a lord, or general), though 左宗棠雞 zuo zong tang ji is the standard name. It should be noted that the Simplified Chinese wikipedia entry refers to it as a hunan classic as well.

— VulcanOfWalden 11:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this. I've heard Tso's pronounced several different ways, and even though there's probably not one "correct" pronunciation, I wonder what is most common. -- Wmahan . 22:23, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

According to the article on the man himself, it is pronounced 'tswo'. --Bletch 02:39, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I pronounce it "sow," as in the female pig. 66.109.47.231 17:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General Tso's in the Midwest

It is common in the St. Louis Chinese fast food restaraunts but it seems to be more sweet than spicy. It is breaded dark meat with a sweet sauce that after a while cooks into a crispy glase.

[edit] Chinese Chicken God

I'm pretty sure there's no "Chinese Chicken God" and that he didn't save Gerneral Tso by smiting his opponents with his firey chicken breath, but I'm just marking it as disputed since I can't say for sure that there's no legend corresponding to this version of the food's origins. - Nunh-huh 21:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Simpsons Quote

Mr. Burns' quote was wrong on a couple of counts, so I corrected it using the episode itself (A Hunka Hunka Burns in Love, saved on my TiVo) as a guide. - Rhrad 18:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "General Doogie's Chicken"?

Mytildebang, do you have a verifiable source for "General Doogie's Chicken"/"General Mac's Chicken"? I can't find any hits for these names on Google or Google.ca, not even on restaurant menus. (There is a hit on an earlier version of this article, but that shouldn't count.) -- Victor Lighthill 15:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, it's been 5 days. I've taken out the sentence about General Doogie and General Mac. Please add it back in if it turns out to be verifiable. -- Victor Lighthill 18:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it obvious that that's vandalism? General "Doggie"? You have heard about the stereotype of dogs in East Asian cuisine, right? 209.6.243.42 22:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry

Sorry, I reverted an edit without seening what had been removed; I thougt it was blanking. I removed it again. | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 00:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming

The article currently states:

In at least one restaurant in Illinois the dish is simply called Governor's Chicken

(Which is already marked as needing a reference). But in my experience Governor's Chicken is more a variation on Kung Pao chicken than on General Tso's. I always assumed this was just a translation of 宮保, which is indeed a type of non-military official. Also:

The "Tso" in General Tso might be approximated as "zwoh"

Wouldn't tswah be closer? --Iustinus 03:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I know I've heard it called Tao in some places. Jv2k

[edit] Obvious mistake under "Overview"

Is white meat the preferred meat in Asian or American cuisine? So, I don't know! But, its a mistake obviously! -- Steve Miller 17:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] General Tso's Wife?

Can anybody provide evidence for the story that General Tso was served his chicken by his wife, or even that General Tso's chicken existed before 1900? If we can find evidence that the chicken was contemporaneous with the General, that would pretty much knock down the "1970s USA" origin claims. However, if we can't find reference to the chicken before the mid-20th century, it would make the "served by Tso's wife" story far less credible. -- Victor Lighthill 16:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro contradiction

There is a contradiction in the opening paragraph:

The dish is unknown in China and other lands home to the Chinese diaspora.[verification needed] In Taiwan, the dish is known to be a classic dish from Hunan province, invented by General Tso's wife and served for him and his officers upon every military victory.

First of all, the text assumes that Taiwan is neither part of Chine nor part of the "other lands home to the Chinese disapora". Secondly, if it is indeed a classic dish from Hunan province, then how can it be unknown in China?

Will work on it. Scotchorama 09:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rat meat necessary?

Also, is it necessary to have that new line about a Newark restaurant serving rat meat? I've added a citation tag, but am considering deleting the line as it doesn't add any value to the article. Scotchorama 16:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orange Chicken

The comment about it being called Orange Chicken doesn't make sense. Orange chicken is a completely seperate dish and has nothing to do with General Tso's chicken. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.172.214.192 (talk) 22:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

What about Lemon Chicken? I don't know the technicalities or the taste, but this certainly looks exactly like the dish I get in Canada called lemon chicken. --24.141.153.56 04:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Does it have a lemon-flavored sauce? Many of the dishes may look similar, or be nearly identical in recipe, but lemon chicken should have a lemon-flavored sauce, and orange chicken should have an orange-flavored sauce. Both dishes have Wikipedia articles. Badagnani 04:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of ketchup

The article's claim of ketchup use seems to be based on an erroneous passing mention in an article in some small town paper's lifestyle section. I have scoured the net and consulted all 30 of my cookry books, another 20 or so at the Brooklyn Public Library, and asked the chefs at the 6 Chinese restaurants here in Brooklyn that we eat at on a regular basis and there is no mention of ketchup whatsoever. I've removed the claim until a source that includes some recipes and information is found. Cheers. L0b0t 05:33, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the ingredient is used, something I know from personal experience of Chinese chefs where I live in the midwestern United States. Since personal experience isn't used as a source at WP, the newspaper source will suffice, pending the finding of further sources, to show that at least in some U.S. restaurants, this "secret" ingredient (which would likely not be widely advertised, despite catsup's East Asian origins) is used. Badagnani 05:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, that source is not good enough as it is not about general's chicken but just a mention in passing with no reference or recipe to back it up. We need a better source, one that comes from a recognized authority in the field, not the cub-reporter that got sent to cover the fast-food Chinese restaurant opening for the Dog-Patch Herald. Cheers. L0b0t 05:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I suppose you didn't realize that this is a major newspaper. Please restore the source. Badagnani 05:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't threaten, and don't remove valid sources. Neither is considered a Wikipedian trait. Cheers, Badagnani 05:42, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't believe I threatened anyone?

Also, if its use is so infrequent that the only source that can be found is the trivial, tangential mention in the cited source, then it is not important enough for inclusion in the encyclopedia. Like I say, I've been looking for 3 days and have found no mention at all of ketchup use and I'm in the city the dish was invented in. Cheers. L0b0t 05:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

You certainly threatened, in your edit summary. Badagnani 05:46, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

There are regional differences between Chinese American cuisines in different parts of the U.S. as you undoubtedly know, and I have already told you that, aside from the cited source, I know from personal experience that ketchup is used in the sauce in the area in which I live. It is insulting, over and above your threat, that you should not respect my expertise while I do respect yours. Badagnani 05:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not respect your expertise and I do not expect you to respect mine. The only expertise to be respected at Wikipedia comes from the rigorous sourcing we must demand of one another, that's how Wikipedia works. I do not know your bona fides anymore than you know mine and we can only be judged on our sources. that said, how you could take my edit summary as a threat is beyond my ken. I was simply pointing out that you have just come off of some blocks for edit warring (including a lengthened block for warring at Sesame Chicken) and you might want to exercise some forethought before you revert things. I am not, nor do I ever want to be an admin so I no power to threaten you with even if that were my intent, which I assure you it was not. I'm sorry if you took it that way. As for the ketchup, I would point out Wp:NPOV#Undue_weight. that is to say that if the use of tomato in this dish is so infrequent as to have only the single poor, tangential source then there is no need to mention it at all. Cheers. L0b0t 06:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't dispute that ketchup (or other concentrated, tomato-based sauces) is used infrequently as an ingredient in this dish. Regarding expertise, you did verifiably claim that you are from the area where the dish was invented and that you had spoken to several Chinese chefs, presumably to assert some superiority in knowledge of the subject. However, this is a large country, and it's quite likely that no single individual knows about every regional variation of particular American Chinese dishes. Badagnani 06:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Stop being pedantic. I was speaking to the rigor of my research. Just to be clear, we now have a source that claims that one restaurant in Taipei uses tomato paste, not ketchup. I still say that violates the undue weight clause of WP:NPOV. Cheers. L0b0t 06:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I just called a local Chinese restaurant and asked if there is any tomato in the sauce for their General Tso's chicken. At first she asked if I was allergic to tomatoes, then said that there is no tomato in their General Tso's chicken sauce. I then told her that the owner of another restaurant in the area had divulged to me several years ago that he used ketchup in his recipe. She then yelled, in Fujianese, to the cook, asking about this, and he replied that, yes, ketchup is used in their recipe for General Tso's chicken. I then asked her if ketchup would be used in the "traditional" recipe for General Tso's chicken in China, whereupon she said "I don't think they have General Tso's chicken in China." Badagnani 20:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blanking Edits by L0b0t (l0b0t blanked nothing).

User:L0b0t's recent deletion, with edit summary "not good enough, the cooks.com recipe only has general in the name" needs to be explained. The recipe is clearly for General Tso's chicken and clearly calls for ketchup. While you're at it, please restore the Honolulu Star-Tribune article you unjustifiably blanked from the article earlier this evening, thanks. Badagnani 06:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Stop acting like a dick, and find proper sources. Cheers. L0b0t 13:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additional blanking by L0b0t (again, l0b0t blanked nothing)

In this edit, User:L0b0t blanked sourced text (and link to NPR website) stating that tomato paste is used in this dish. Please restore this text and link. Badagnani 06:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC) Stop acting like a dick, and find proper sources. Cheers. L0b0t 13:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pinyin Problem

Anyone know why the Pinyin doesn't match the characters in the opening paragraph? That looks like it needs fixing to me. (140.247.10.148 08:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC))

Good catch; we'll check on it. Badagnani 08:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. Badagnani 09:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 公

Does 公 mean "General"? Wiktionary says it means "duke." Badagnani 23:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Like many characters, 公 can mean a number of different things depending on the compound word in which it appears, but is usually means "public." Examples include 公安（public security), 公报 (bulletin), etc. But it can also denote a metric unit of measurement （公里 = kilometer, 英里 = mile) or turn a chicken into a rooster (公鸡). So, as usual, it's difficult to say what the character "means" on its own, but I think "public" is a good approximation 90% of the time. See zhongwen.com for a good list of compounds in which it appears. (140.247.11.17 05:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC))

So 左公鸡 means "Zuo, Public Duke" or "Zuo, Public General"? It doesn't translate well into English. Badagnani 05:27, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

"公", as well as meaning duke, is also a male honorific denoting a very high level of respect. Zuo Zongtang was not a duke, but a Marquess of the Second Rank and a Grand Councillor. "左公" here would be best translated as a generic term of respect -- maybe "the Honourable Zuo's Chicken" or "Lord Zuo's Chicken". Note, however, that a person can be addressed as "公" as a mark of respect even if they were not a peer. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More sources

On 24 June 2007 L0b0t tagged this article's subsection "Overview" with a request for more sources. Normally, an overview will depend upon subsequent sections for its sources. The "Overview" at that point had four sentences, the last two of which were supported by references. The second sentence already had a request for source. So applying the general tag to the remaining single sentence was perhaps excessive. Since then the second sentence has been supported, and a new sentence has been added with two references. Based upon the fact that only a single sentence doesn't have a direct reference, that there are six citations for the remaining four sentences, and that this is an overview section, I have removed the general unsourced tag. If appropriate, as L0b0t has done before, individual requests can be made for specific information which "has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, or [contains] quotations". Wikipedia:Verifiability --Bejnar 21:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Food and Drink Assessment

Assessed article for Food and Drink Project purposes as "start" class as it has a fair amount of content but lacks in many respects. Importance is "low." VirginiaProp 23:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TONG CHO CHICKEN is not GENERAL ZUO's CHICKEN

I am a Mandarin Speaking South Louisiana native who lived in Mainland China and Taiwan for a few years. While I didn't see any "General Tso/Zuo's Chicken" at any restaurants in either country, I did have the occasion to take a cooking class while in Sichuan province, and I can say without a doubt that the "tong cho" chicken offered in Restaurants in South Louisiana is actually a poor English transliteration of "tang-cu" (tsu), or "sugar-vinegar" chicken, a dish that is common in Southwest China (I can read the Chinese characters on the menus, and it reads as Tang-cu or sugar-vinegar) It is like a spicier, more tart version of Cantonese style sweet and sour sauce, served over fried chicken pieces (one of the dishes I learned how to make). The taste is similar to, but much more sour than, the General Tso's Chicken served in American Chinese restaurants. And being a native of South Louisiana(New Orleans, I also lived in Baton Rouge), I can attest that "General Tso's Chicken" is served there as named, sometimes right alongside Tong Cho chicken on the menus. This part of the entry is mistaken. How do I go about editing this?64.122.245.240 05:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

This is good info. Why don't you go ahead and add this information in the article? Badagnani 05:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it is a misinterpretation of 糖醋雞. Benjwong 23:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious

This section is dubious:

It later became known as chung tong gai,*[›] which translates as “ancestor meeting place chicken.” This, on transplanted restaurant menus, became either, in English, some general or, in Chinese characters, Tso chung gai, or Tso chung tong gai, which translate as “Tso ancestor meeting place chicken

"Chung tong gai" is much more likely to be 宗棠鸡, from Zuo Zongtang's given name - same pronunciation as "宗堂" -"ancestral meeting hall". Simply makes no sense for it to be called "Zuo Ancestral Meeting Hall Chicken". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

When did that reference get added? Badagnani 06:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The reference itself seems to have been there for months at least. This edit changed the previous paraphrase of the reference to a direct quote. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:01, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Pure speculation now, but I think 中堂 (roughly the same pronunciation in Cantonese) is more likely than either 宗棠 (Zuo Zongtang) or 宗堂 (ancestral hall). 中堂 is the honorific for the Chancellor or analogous high official in ancient China - it is not inconceivable that 中堂 was used as an alternative to "General Tso". By contrast, it is not the custom to refer to high officials like Zuo Zongtang by their given name (宗棠) only; and as I said before, "Ancestral Hall Chicken" just makes no sense.

In any case, if chung tang gai (or whatever) was actually a name used for this dish, then it is very unlikely to have been "宗堂" or ancestral hall chicken. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Box needs to be fixed

The hanzi for "General Gau's chicken" do not give this name, and what is called IPA is not in IPA symbols. Please fix. Badagnani 17:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chanign Chinese characters per Singtao article, changing "stories of origin" per new Jennifer Lee book

A new book by NY Times journalist Jennifer 8. Lee discusses the process of tracking down the origin of the chicken, including visits to General Tso's home in Hunan. I'm giving it more prominence than the previous story by Eileen Lo because (1) Jennifer Lee reports credible primary research; (2) she is able to give the dish's name in mandarin (rather than Cantonese), which is appropriate given that it is a Hunan and not Canton dish; (3) her explanation of the dish's origin and naming is more internally consistent that Eileen Lo's.

I'm also changing the primary Chinese name in the opening template in accordance with a Sing Tao news report (11/03/08), which definitely uses Zuo Zongtang and not "ancestral hall". --BanEvadingSock019 (talk) 07:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hold on--the character set used by the overwhelming majority of restaurants and menus *must* not be ignored. Please discuss first. Badagnani (talk) 07:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... are you saying that restaurant menus use 宗堂 and not 宗棠?? I've only ever seen the latter! --BanEvadingSock019 (talk) 08:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Google yields 15,700 for "左宗棠鸡" (Zuo Zongtang chicken) and 1,130 for "左宗堂鸡" (Zuo Ancestral Hall chicken) (exact matches only in both cases. Using traditional instead, we get 21,500 for "左宗棠雞" (Zuo Zongtang chicken) and 1,130 for "左宗堂雞" (Zuo Ancestral Hall chicken). The Chinese wikipedia article also uses "左宗棠" and not "左宗堂". --BanEvadingSock019 (talk) 08:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Some dishes, for whatever reason, have more than one spelling that appears on menus. We have to do our best to document this phenomenon and list the alternate spellings as well, not blanking them entirely from the article. Badagnani (talk) 08:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me that the "ancestral hall" version is very rarely found. Are you sure it appears on menus? Perhaps it can be recorded somewhere in the "Names" section. It is by no means a significant usage. --BanEvadingSock019 (talk) 09:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You just presented the spelling we previously had, just above, as one of the hits in a search. This confusion over names is important to record, no matter where in the article. This reaches an extreme at Moo shu pork, you'll see, with no fewer than 25 spellings (including simplified and traditional for each). Badagnani (talk) 09:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll add it into the Names section, in the paragraph talking about Eileen Lo's view, since she seems to believe that is the correct character. A note, though: a look through some of the Google hits seems to show a lot of forum posts and suchlike. I suspect a common typo. --BanEvadingSock019 (talk) 09:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You may be right about that. Just make sure to put "restaurant" or "menu" in your Google search to determine how many online restaurant menus (if any) are using the "wrong" spelling. Badagnani (talk) 09:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Good idea.

My other idea is that if an article spells the name of the general wrong (writing it as 左宗堂) then it is probably an error. Will let you know what I find.

In the mean time, have edited the article. Let me know what you think . --BanEvadingSock019 (talk) 09:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You are right about it being on menus. I found it on the menu of a Taiwanese restuarant offering home delivery service, and the Shanghai-Hangzhou restaurant at the University of Taiwan. --BanEvadingSock019 (talk) 09:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The latter link uses "Zuo Zongtang", not "ancestral hall". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New England

I've lived in New England all my life in Connecticut and have spent plenty of time in Mass. and Rhode Island, and the only variations on the name I have seen are Tso, Tsu, and Cho. I've never seen any name starting with a "G", so I don't think it's "typically" called that in New England at all ~ 68.118.179.201 (talk) 16:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)