Talk:Geneivat da'at

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A fact from Geneivat da'at appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 21 February 2008.

Contents 1 Don't be deceived... 2 Sources 3 Original research 4 Additional info

[edit] Don't be deceived...

This article was started with the best of intentions. I didn't see many uses of the term within wikipedia, but I'm wondering if that's an oversight. Anyway, it would be good to find articles that should mention the concept. HG | Talk 14:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

It is a technical term in halachic discussions, and would not normally be part of encyclopedia content. Even in the Talmud, its use is not particularly common. JFW | T@lk 21:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

There are several pages on the topic in Encylopedia Talmudit.

In the Bar-Ilan database, there are 123 (with yod) and 18 (w/o yod) documents that use the term directly. Most of the usage is among the rishonim and later. Hilchot De'ot 2:6 is one of the earliest and most important sources using the phrase (no yod in Bar Ilan). (See also Tur YD 117, Beit Yosef YD 65 and 228). Shulchan Aruch ha-Rav has geneivat da'at as part of a subheading w/ona'at devarim. Kitzur Sh"A 63:4. Thanks. HG | Talk 16:41, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Probably should cover ona'at devarim in this article. Bar Ilan lists 111 sources. Slightly less than geneivat daat, though it may be broader and has earlier refs. HG | Talk 17:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Ona'at devarim is a completely unrelated concept. JFW | T@lk 21:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they certainly are unrelated in many respects. One involves leaving a false impression and the other means causing mental anguish verbally. I'd be glad if we had 2 different articles on them. Still, they do constitute 2 of the basic laws relevant to the ethics of deception (sheker a third) and sometimes a deceptive act violates both prohibitions. Sorry for mixing it up. HG | Talk 22:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

There are numerous other basic laws relevant to deception. Sheker is the most obvious one - don't lie; that is both a civil and an ethical law. Ona'ah (without the "devarim") is certainly relevant, and the Talmud has some interesting rulings on how the Sages sometimes went to extreme lengths to stop merchants overpricing their wares (e.g. allowing multiple women to bring one sacrificial dove together after giving birth because the doves were overpriced). JFW | T@lk 08:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

I removed a footnote that lists the number of times GD is mentioned on the Bar Ilan CD-ROM. That is interesting, but that source is not exhaustive. More important is the fact that Geneivat Da'at is prohibited by the Shulchan Aruch. JFW | T@lk 21:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, I think counting responsa falls under WP:NOR. But that is a minor point. JFW | T@lk 09:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not comfortable with your deletions here. The Bar-Ilan is a highly respected source and a standard reference; it isn't exhaustive but it is extensive and reliable. You'd be welcome to qualify the data (e.g., footnote), but I see no reason to delete the information. There is no original research involved here by counting up the number of documents, any more than if we listed the documents themselves.

Similarly, I don't see why you deleted Aaron Levine's cases study. He's a highly regarded scholar, the source is reliable, and the info is relevant. You're most welcome to bring in other examples or cases, esp to help fill out the picture, but why delete my initial efforts to begin that picture? HG | Talk 01:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Additional info

Perhaps I should put this here before adding to the table, to allow JFW or others to express concerns.

From Activist Business Ethics in Judaism p.52 Jacques Cory:

[Meir] Tamari finds analogies between gneivat daat‚ defacement of knowledge‚ as stated in the Halakhah and modern business‚ such as misrepresentation of financial results to the minority shareholders as compared to those presented to insiders‚ such as actions of investment bankers‚ auditors and consultants in favor of the majority shareholders‚ insider trading‚ award of shares and warrants to executives in order to induce them to carry on resolutions to the benefit of the majority shareholders‚ takeover bids where the minority shareholders are forced to sell their shares at prices fixed by the management and majority shareholders‚ and so on.

"Ethical Investing from a Jewish Perspective". Mark S. Schwartz, Meir Tamari, Daniel Schwab. Business and Society Review 112 (1) , 137–161 "A religious version of social or ethical investment has been in existence for thousands of years. Ethical investment based on Jewish doctrine, for example, has maintained the same ethical principles for over 3,500 years. ... Parallel to these obligations was the insistence on the fulfillment of contracts and fiduciary obligations that required that other peoples’ funds given to one for investment or safeguarding be subject to Judaism’s moral and ethical teachings and obligations. 16 /fn/16. For example, shomrim, lo tonu, gneivat da’at."

"Where damage is caused as a result of certain corporate activities transgressing Jewish law, Jewish investors would be obligated to avoid investing in such companies. Examples include monetary damage arising from fraud, oppression, deceptive advertising, competition that is not based on any economic efficiency or benefit to the wider society, or activities that cause physical harm to people including the sale of illicit drugs or cigarettes, or spiritual harm caused through the sale of hard and soft core pornography, which stimulates sexual actions that are not permitted by Jewish law. Companies would be obligated to abide by a full disclosure policy that includes reporting defects or shortcomings in goods and services supplied, or in financial reporting. 50/fn/50. That is, based on Gneivat Da’aat and Mekach Ta’ut."

I'll submit more later... Thanks, HG | Talk 01:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Meir Tamari. Al Chet: Sins in the Marketplace has section on GD, pp.73ff.

He explains ShA HM 228.6 (selling meat to gentiles as if kosher) and gives modern example of packaging that leaves impression of more numerous or larger goods for sale. Cites Sefer Yaatzu Hasidim onright/wrongs ways to sell or purchase (i.e., haggle). Also, he notes that liability doesn't occur merely with sale, but with the statement. Also, that false impression is wrong even when not done deliberately or knowingly. Also: "one should refuse to benefit from creating a false impression, even by otherwise legitimate actions." p.76 Rashin on Mak 24a and BB 88a. (Source: 1996 Rowman & Littlefield ISBN 1568219067)

Rabbi Dr. Asher Meir, Business Ethics Center of Jerusalem "Discounted from what?"

"Q. Our mail-order firm sells discount merchandise. When there is a standard price (e.g. a catalogue or suggested retail price) we tell the customer the discount from that price. When there is no standard price, can we estimate the discount from a fair store price? A. In all of our dealings we are forbidden from deceiving others, leading them to believe they obtain a benefit from someone beyond the person's actual effort. Such deception is called geneivat data, literally "stealing judgment". When people are improperly informed, their judgment is not exercised freely. Leading others to believe they obtained a discount when in fact they pay a normal price would definitely be an example of geneivat daat."

Reform responsa example. Don't use subterfuge to transfer assets to children and thereby shield assets from a nursing home (so as to appear poor and require gov't or Jewish communal assistance) even if it's legal. Mark Warshofsky p.308 Jewish Living: A Guide to Contemporary Reform Practice 2000 Union for Reform Judaism, ISBN 080740702X. He's referrring (per p466) to Walter Jacob, Question and Reform Jewish Answers, #91 —Preceding unsigned comment added by HG (talk • contribs) 01:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)