Talk:Gelou
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[edit] Origin of Gelou
Juro, I'm glad that you've added your expertise to this stub. However, the last couple of sentences are somewhat contradictory as there is a difference between myth, legend and fiction. Are you saying that the figure of Gelou was created by the author of GH and has since become a legend? And how can you be sure that the author created Gelou rather than take him from an earlier source? Scott Moore 12:21, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- You are right. I just wrote this too quickly. I hope it's better now... I am quite sure there are studies dealing specifically with the Gelou figure, which specify the exact source (if any) of this particular "legend", but since I haven't read them, I can only provide the generally assumed statement that he actually did not exist. If you have exact information on him, go on and add it. Juro 19:23, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- According to Pal Engel in his recent "Realm of St. Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary" Gelou was probably created by the author of GH like most of the enemies of Arpad. Scott Moore 12:00, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks for the information. Juro 02:51, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Anonymous is a strong issue for historians and nationalists from Romania and Hungaria, if Gelu was a real character then the Daco-romanism theory have a very strong agrument using hungarian history as primary source. The argument that Gelou was created by the author is coming not from science pov but from political point of view.CristianChirita 04:36, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- CristianChirita, I am aware that the history of Transylvania was very politicised during the communist era in both Hungary and Romania. I have deliberately avoided using any secondary sources from before 1990. However, the argument that Gelou was probably created by the author is supported by the leading Hungarian historians of today specialising in the medieval period (e.g Pal Engel as I refer to above - who was formerly Director of Medieval Studies at the Academy of Sciences). Note the word probable (Engel does not claim it as fact that Gelou did not exist - he says that it is probable, based on arguments which I have summarised in the article). Scott Moore 10:58, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The article seems fair, I cannot be very objective, maybe someone could mention that Romanian historians argue that probable Gelu was a real character proving that the continuity of the inhabitants of transylvania was genuine. Maybe this will be once and forever solved with the help of the genographic project.CristianChirita 12:23, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- See also the arguments given in Talk:Menumorut by Juro
- The article seems fair, I cannot be very objective, maybe someone could mention that Romanian historians argue that probable Gelu was a real character proving that the continuity of the inhabitants of transylvania was genuine. Maybe this will be once and forever solved with the help of the genographic project.CristianChirita 12:23, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- CristianChirita, I am aware that the history of Transylvania was very politicised during the communist era in both Hungary and Romania. I have deliberately avoided using any secondary sources from before 1990. However, the argument that Gelou was probably created by the author is supported by the leading Hungarian historians of today specialising in the medieval period (e.g Pal Engel as I refer to above - who was formerly Director of Medieval Studies at the Academy of Sciences). Note the word probable (Engel does not claim it as fact that Gelou did not exist - he says that it is probable, based on arguments which I have summarised in the article). Scott Moore 10:58, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Anonymous is a strong issue for historians and nationalists from Romania and Hungaria, if Gelu was a real character then the Daco-romanism theory have a very strong agrument using hungarian history as primary source. The argument that Gelou was created by the author is coming not from science pov but from political point of view.CristianChirita 04:36, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks for the information. Juro 02:51, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- According to Pal Engel in his recent "Realm of St. Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary" Gelou was probably created by the author of GH like most of the enemies of Arpad. Scott Moore 12:00, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Anonymous the ignorant
- author of the Gesta apparently knew little or nothing about the real political situation in the Pannonian plain around the time of the Magyar conquest; the
well, one thing was certain: Anonymous knew about a slav-vlach living together in 10th century, a situation nonexistant in 12th century, so he didn't invent starting from the realities of his time
second is that he used the name Blachi for the Vlachs, while in the 12 century the hungarian word for Vlachs was Olah, so he "apparently" knew couple of things about the past.
also, he indicates the Bulgarian rule over Transylvania in 10th century, also long vanished by 12th century.
so the "apparent" ignorance of Anonymous about the situation in Transylvania in 10th century needs more argumentation -- Criztu 08:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
1. Vlach and Slavs living together-> Do you heard about the so-called Assenid Bulgarian Empire? (contemporary with Anonymus)
2. The royal chancellery used the phrase olachus only after 1247. Before that the expression was blachus.
[edit] Cleanup
This article needs context. How is it significant? What does it relate to? All of these are sort of absent fromt his article and need to be added. --Lendorien 01:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Issue resolved. Now needs sources for the assertations and quotes included in the article. --Lendorien 15:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
