Talk:Geisha
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[edit] Merge discussion
[edit] Image:Geisha-fullheight.jpg
Please do not change the caption on this picture. The girls in it are not maiko - they're ordinary women who rented costumes. The fact they're posing in broad daylight is a big give-away. John Smith's (talk) 20:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, but that's not a very convincing argument. I've seen geisha and yes, even maiko in full getup, running around in broad daylight and occasionally stopping to pose for photos. I would argue that the fact that they're outdoors, and not inside a studio, suggests that they're not just women playing dressup. Exploding Boy (talk) 18:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
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- If you read the picture's entry you will see that it says Full height photograph of women dressed as maiko. Women dressed as maiko - that implies they aren't. So unless you can get the uploader to verify they were proper maiko then the current caption should stay.
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- Real geisha and maiko don't stop to pose for ordinary people as they're not clients. The only time they stop is if they're with a client and he/she suggests they do so for someone else, or the client wants to take a picture. John Smith's (talk) 19:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Again, not true. Real maiko and geisha do stop to have their photos taken by ordinary people, first of all, and second the women in this photo could have been stopping to have their photo taken by someone connected to them at moment opportune for the person who took this photo. Sorry, I'm still not convinced one way or the other. Exploding Boy (talk) 07:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
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- It doesn't matter whether you're convinced or not - go by the description on the image page. The person that took it would understand better than anyone what he saw. John Smith's (talk) 08:37, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Not necessarily. Like you, s/he may have thought that the fact they were posing for photos had special significance. Exploding Boy (talk) 16:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not going to spend more time on this. If you have a problem start an RfC or something. John Smith's (talk) 10:08, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Recent edits by User:Shakuma
I have reverted these changes. Lipstick can refer to what geisha use, not just what most people buy in the shops. Furthermore, mizuage no longer exists. Please do not reinstate these changes. John Smith's (talk) 22:21, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] So what does a geisha actually DO?
There's one extremely glaring omission in this article: what a geisha actually does, and what they are trained to do. Apart from the explanation of prostitution, there appears to be no information on this at all other than a vague reference to "geisha arts." My understanding is that they entertain both men and woman primarily though the art of conversation, the writing of poetry, the playing of music and in some cases the practice of slight of hand. Since much of their appeal relies on language, they are usually forced to rely on music and non-verbal skills to entertain foreigners, which has distorted their perception in the West. Indeed, because a full appreciation of their skills requires their audience to be highly educated, well read and intelligent, many Japanese would find their style hard going. I hope that somebody who knows more than me about these things can expand on these issues. --Gilgongo (talk) 23:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I have never heard it alleged that geisha are hookers and never read evidence that they still prostitute themselves. Serious facts would be needed to even put that allegation across, so I have reverted as vandalism. John Smith's (talk) 10:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
According to the article, "[t]here remains some confusion, even within Japan, about the nature of the geisha profession" (emphasis supplied). This is a tacit admission that, in Japan, there are many people who think that the geisha are prostitutes. Naturally, I have no idea personally, but I have heard that the role of the geisha is to entertain, to indulge, and to satisfy her customer, and that while that does not automatically include sex, it does not exclude it either, if that is what is necessary or desired. So, perhaps the more accurate way of stating the answer is to say that a geisha is not merely a prostitute?
John Paul Parks (talk) 12:53, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Oiran v. prostitutes
Please note that it wasn't only the oiran that wore their obi at the front - other, less high-class prostitutes, did the same. So I have restored the previous version before the edit by 158.158.240.230. John Smith's (talk) 19:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Geesha pronunciation
I think to regard Geesha as a mispronunciation is not correct. In modern Japanese written "ei" is quite frequently pronounced as ee (i.e. long e) by Japanese native speakers. True, the Furagana based pronunciation as "ei" is also heard but the GIs stationed in Japan picked up the Geesha-pronunciation from native speakers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidon (talk • contribs) 20:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- No, it's not pronounced "geesha." Remember, basing pronunciation off of romanization is never a good idea. --iriseyestalk 18:49, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
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- Perhaps you would like to listen to how Japanese native speakers pronounce GEISHA. Here are a few examples at www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKMbEcIiId8 (about 1:14 and 1:29). Also there is a clip from a film made as early as 1936 where GEIKO is also pronounced with a long e (about 6:56). And the IPA description should be revised altogether (the vowel at the end is certainly not a centralized one as presented by the rotated 'e').Davidon (talk) 21:46, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
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- You surprise me. The romanization is Hepburn, and once you remember certain conventions of English spelling (as Hepburn was devised by a US missionary), it's pretty directly phonemic. The "Nihongo" template links to Help:Japanese, and within that a section titled "Japanese pronunciation" is conspicuous, concentrates on the Hepburn-to-sound conversion, and is adequate for most people other than phoneticians. The only point about "geisha" that's not explained there is the pronunciation of the sound Hepburnized as "sh", but the sound written in English as "sh" is a close enough approximation for most purposes. -- Hoary (talk) 13:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
- While I know nothing about Japanese pronunciation, I was thinking, as I read the first comment, that "geisha" is, at best, a transliteration into Roman characters, and may tell us very little, if anything, about correction pronunciation. The Roman characters might be an approximation of correct pronunciation, but in the nature of things, cannot be more than that. John Paul Parks (talk) 12:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
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- They're certainly not "phonetic" either in the technical sense (no normal script is) nor in a compositional sense: the "sh" of "geisha" is not an "s" sound followed by an "h" sound.
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- The article starts "Geisha (芸者?)". There's something like a little question mark toward the end. Click on that and make your way to Help:Japanese, where you'll find an explanation. -- Hoary (talk) 13:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Excessive vandalism
This article seems to have had a lot of vandalism. I tried to undo all changes by 72.72.108.151, but was only successful once. Sometimes, the wiki told me the edit can be undone, but did not show me a diff, in which cases, I did not feel knowledgeable enough to make the change. I would like it if someone else can please look over this page and clean it.
Luther93 (talk) 04:26, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I have gone back and reverted all the vandalism I can see - some other editors had inserted inappropriate links. If you want to revert a series of vandalising edits, use the history tab to click on the last good version. John Smith's (talk) 11:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
The article is attracting lots of IP vandalism at the moment. Can an admin please consider semi-protection? --MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- Few admins will see such a request here - you need to make it formal. John Smith's (talk) 01:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- It's been done. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Fan dancing
I heard that a geisha does a type of dancing with pretty Japanese folding fans. Should there be an explanation to this? Angie Y. (talk) 21:07, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Confusion / Contradictory section
Okay, maybe it's just me, but I'm pretty by the following two statements:
Geisha engagements may include flirting with men and playful innuendos; however, clients know that nothing more can be expected. In a social style that is uniquely Japanese, men are amused by the illusion of that which is never to be. Geisha do not engage in paid sex with clients.
Ok, so Geisha are not prostitutes, whatever they do. That's all fine and well, but there is also this:
In the late eighteenth century, dancing women called "odoriko" and newly popular female "geisha" began entertaining men at banquets in unlicensed districts. Some were apprehended for illegal prostitution and sent to the licensed quarters, where there was a strict distinction between geisha and prostitutes, and the former were forbidden to sell sex. In contrast, "machi geisha," who worked outside the licensed districts, often engaged in illegal prostitution. [...] However, the autobiography of Sayo Masuda, an onsen geisha who worked in Nagano Prefecture in the 1930's, reveals that in the past such women were often under intense pressure to sell sex.
So geisha are prostitutes after all, or at least some of them? Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be some confusion in the article itself about just what exactly it's supposed to say. The statement that "geishas are not prostitutes" simply doesn't seem to match up with the rest of that section; at any rate, the actual distinction between geishas and prostitutes, as well as the point where one historically becomes the other, is not quite clear to me. Hell, the article says that not even the Japanese are quite sure about what geishas do!
Could maybe someone with actual historical expertise clarify this whole thing? If you've read a few good history books it would really suffice, because I have the strong feeling that a lot of this article might have been written by otaku and japanophiles with no real idea of what they're talking about, no offense. -84.186.242.221 (talk) 05:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know why you are confused. The article states that Geisha were performers in the arts: dance, poetry, music, etc. Prostitutes started dressing like Geisha but their obi is tied to the front of their kimono instead of the back and the style is less complex; easier and faster to take off and put back on. I am going to use a very poor example. When one hires a stripper, one does not expect to have sex. The girl strips, lap dance, or just dances. Do some of them have paid sex? Do some of them become porn stars? Yes. Does that mean a stripper is a prostitute? No.
