Talk:Gaze

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[edit] Initial comments

This is a fantastic article. Thanks for writing it! -- The Anome 09:52, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! That's very kind of you to say :) Dysprosia 10:14, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The article has been changed since my rant earlier today. Therefore, I have relegated my protest and the responses to it to this page's history. I left the responses that address my complaint about NPOV. This just happened to be the first 'pedia article I've encountered that covered a feminist subject. I retract my complaint. <>< tbc 05:07, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Of course, the power relationship implied by "the gaze" is now available on an equal-opportunity basis: can we have some discussion of the "female gaze" vs. the "male gaze"? -- The Anome 22:56, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I had previously not come across anything that was concentrating on a "female gaze", but I'll try and add something now. Dysprosia 00:10, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There's some stuff on it now, but it was all rather quick, and probably still needs a bit more fleshing out, but at least it's there now. Dysprosia 00:37, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The following comment was previously made on the main article itself. Please keep it in talk. Jogloran 08:55, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

This term "the gaze" really belongs to Foucault in reference to his theory of knowledge and power. Lacan is a stretch. Google the term and you will see what I mean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jogloran (talk • contribs) 08:55, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] First Sentence

I don't understand this:

...is one that deals with how an audience views other people presented.

Should presented just be removed?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Longshanks37 (talk • contribs) 00:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Please sign your posts to talk pages by adding -~~~~ at the end.
I don't think it should be removed. If you look at the entire sentence:
The concept of gaze (often also called the gaze), in analysing visual media, is one that deals with how an audience views other people presented.
The concept of The Gaze is usually specific to analyses of visual media (though not always). The other people being presented are presented in visual media. That is, we're not just talking about other people you run into on the street, but specifically about how you view and relate to people presented in film and television (usually). -Seth Mahoney 19:26, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Added the original French term.--WadeMcR 04:08, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unclear

I'm not clear from the first paragraph of this article precisely what "gaze" would be defined as. The intro paragraph describes it vaguely, indirectly, but does not offer a definition. It's a bit like saying "pregnancy is kinda like when a woman gets a big stomach and sometimes feels bad" but doesn't specify that she is carrying an developing but as yet unborn fetus and is going to give birth. (this may not be the best metaphor to illustrate, but I hope the point is not lost). As a reader I had to read onwards a bit to begin to understand, although am still unclear. Does "gaze" in this reference actually mean "point of view"? thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.41.215.150 (talk • contribs) 04:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


In the "Forms of gaze" part, could someone exlain what does "the text" means here?

[edit] Existentialism

My understanding of "the gaze" comes from Existentialism, particularly Sartre. That's gotta predate Foucault. It should probably be mentioned here. Nick Urban 07:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gaze and feminism

I take great issue with the sections "Gaze and feminist theory" and "Responses to 'male gaze,'" as both are extremely biased and possibly factually inaccurate. The Wikipedia is meant to be a neutral, factual encyclopedia, not a launching pad for anti-male propaganda by radical feminists who try to demonize male sexuality. Neither section contains any citations, and furthermore, I take issue with the following points:

First section:

  • First paragraph: uncited statements and personal hypotheses.
  • Second paragraph: heavy gender bias and personal assessments, e.g., stating that male=active, female=passive.
  • Third paragraph: weasel words ("some advertising", "it is argued"), and heavy bias (total lack of regard for advertising featuring sexualized male models).

Second section:

  • First paragraph: first restates the hypothesis of the first section, then begins to offer an alternative viewpoint (which has been tagged with "citation needed," no doubt maliciously), but jumps immediately into an out-of-place sentence that attempts to refute the responses, even though the section claims to be about responses to the male gaze, not what extremist feminists think about the responses themselves.
  • Second paragraph: somewhat incoherent philosophizing about whether or not there is a female gaze. The female gaze obviously needs its own section, since many seem to agree that there is such a thing.
  • Third paragraph: out of place restatement of things found in the first section, continuing to attack the responses.
  • Fourth paragraph: attempt to refute the statement that there is a female gaze, along with highly sexist statements against men.
  • Fifth paragraph: out-of-place brief statement about nonsexual same-sex uses of "the gaze."

Thus, aside from the entire issue of the "male gaze," which, aside from the occasional cases of unwelcome lechery in which it might be a justifiable complaint, is mainly a wholesale attack on male sexuality, this entire section is heavily biased, uncited, and poorly structured. The radical feminist theory needs to be consolidated into its own section, the responses to their hypotheses need to be expanded and clarified (and protected from further abusive additions that give the appearance of neutrality through weasel words alone), the information on the female gaze needs to be given its own section, and the remaining out-of-place text needs to be either removed or revised. --HarmonicFeather 06:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that this author should include some sort of verification, the research on this subject overwhelmingly supports this interpretation. It would be harder to find articles and books that argue from a different position. Mulvey links her idea of the gaze closely to Lacan and the Oeidpus complex, so one can easily see the roots of such binaries between male and female. Also, as uncomfortable as it might make one, the male/action, woman/passive is not a new configuration. Simply go to scholar.google.com and begin searching through articles, there are simply too many to list here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dchollis (talk • contribs) 16:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
If the research overwhelmingly supports it, the research needs to be cited. If citing it is "too much work," then the uncited claims need to be removed. It's this simple. Furthermore, it's not a matter of "comfort" or "discomfort," it's about accuracy versus ideological, subversive falsehoods. What "research" is being cited here? Is it objective research, carried out by independent universities, government agencies, and neutral parties, that has been carefully reviewed, published in independent, respected, peer-reviewed journals, and repeatedly reverified? Or is it unproven assumptions and hypotheses based upon poor samples, published in opinion pieces or publications lacking academic and scientific rigor, funded by biased individuals or organizations with a specific agenda to pursue? Not all purported "research" is created equal, and it is not my responsibility to support or disprove the claims in the article, it is the author's. If unbiased, peer-reviewed, scientific research can be added to the article, then we can begin resolving the enormous biases and problems in the article. Otherwise, the uncited, biased, and dubious assertions need to be removed. --HarmonicFeather 00:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

While research supporting a certain hypothesis should be cited, it doesn't mean the author of that section have to also write about the female gaze, especially when there is a lack of research and evidence on such topic. Neutrality concerns only the tone and presentation of that section itself. If you believe a section about female gaze should exist and there is sufficient research to use. Why dont you write about the female gaze to present the other side of issue, instead of debating the neutrality of the other section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.167.69 (talk • contribs) 13 December 2006 (UTC

Response to the initial post about feminist / male gaze theory: I'll work on the cites and also the language to make it read encyclopedic-tone, rather than lit theory journal tone. But the material is absolutely central to the development of the theory of "gaze". It's not taking a feminist POV to describe the feminist theoretical work on "male gaze", and all the ways that scholarly has developed since the initial feminist work. The "male gaze" has been an incredibly significant theory since Laura Mulvey's paper in the 1970s, and has led to a lot of theoretical responses, such as the "lesbian gaze". I think there may be some confusion between taking a particular POV, and explaining a particular POV. Taking a POV is of course not appropriate, but explaining the POV is absolutely vital to understanding critical theory. "Gaze" is, fundamentally, a critical theory concept about analyzing culture and media; it is inherently political. That has to be explained in the article. The article is a very good start for now, and we just need to work on the tone (and the cites) to make the NPOV stance of wikipedia apparent. --LQ 15:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] proposed rewrite of "male gaze" / gaze & feminism

Okay, a proposed rewrite that incorporates the existing text as well as explaining the asymmetry pointed out (rather awkwardly) in the current text. It also leads into discussion of the lesbian gaze and other explanations of the theory, which are currently lacking in the article. I'm leaving the cites out in this draft. If we can achieve some rough consensus, I'll put this in, and we can edit and add in refs from there.

The theory of "gaze" was first applied to an analysis of gender relations by Laura Mulvey in the 1970s,[1] leading to a significant body of scholarship assessing the "male gaze".
Within feminist scholarship analyzing the text of works, the theory of the "male gaze" permits analysis of the presumed (male) audience of the work in relation to female representation within the work. The asymmetric power structure of "gaze" is assessed along the axis of male-female relations. Some feminists have suggested that the "male gaze" is an exercise of power: the male viewer exercising power over the female subject.
[we really need another paragraph explaining it in more detail--it's a very significant theoretical construct; also could mention some of the material currently in the Laura Mulvey article, including the responses in her follow-up article "Afterthoughts on 'Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema'"]
(section head for influence on other scholarship, including other media, female gaze, queer gaze)
The theory of the "male gaze" has proven to be enormously influential, spawning both critical engagement with the theory, and broad application of it beyond the world of film studies and feminist criticism.
The "male gaze" is an inherently asymmetrical theory, based on feminist assessments of sexism in society and the production of cultural works, such as films, photographs, and advertising. Mulvey, the originator of the phrase "male gaze", argues that "the male figure cannot bear the burden of sexual objectification," suggesting that a female gaze may not even be possible. [citation needed] Another theorist, Eva-Maria Jacobsson, considers the female gaze to be "a mere cross identification with masculinity". [citation needed]Nalini Paul describes Wide Sargasso Sea, where the character Antoinette views Rochester and places a garland upon him to appear as a hero, and "Rochester does not feel comfortable with having this role enforced upon him; thus he rejects it by removing the garland and crushing the flowers."[citation needed] [I actually think this Paul/Wide Sargasso Sea example is a bit too specific for an encyclopedia article and would strike the sentence entirely, but put it here for discussion.]
However, some theorists have engaged the notion of the converse of a male gaze, disputing the impossibility or nonexistence of the heterosexual "female gaze". Some scholars [who?] have considered the question of female gaze, or sexual objectification of the male body, in advertising texts and teenage magazines.[citation needed] The Rochester Contemporary mounted a 1998 exhibition called "The Female Gaze", where female artists studied the male form. Therese Mulligan, the curator of the exhibit, described her experience of the female gaze: "To get these men who had leered at her on the street to strike these poses was amazing. And you could tell that they loved being looked at by her. These guys aren't attractive, but they sure think they are."[citation needed]
Some scholars have attempted to contextualize the theory within particular cultures. For instance, some have argued that in Western society, models and beauty pageants suggest that, while the male gaze exists, it is welcomed by the objects of the gaze, or not an exercise of power. [citation needed] The theory has also been applied by scholars examining "covering" of the female body, historically and in contemporary non-Western cultures. [citation needed]
While Mulvey initially applied her work to an assessment of "cinematic spectatorship," the theory has been in influential in other media as well. In advertising, for instance, the concept of the "male gaze" has led to significant work assessing the uses of sexualized images of women's bodies in response to a presumed male audience. [citation needed] The theory has also been applied in literature criticism. [citation needed] It has even been examined in science: some evolutionary psychology scientists have accepted the notion of male gaze, offering a possible evolutionary biological explanation for it. [citation needed]
The notion of the "male gaze" has also been significantly influential in queer theory, where scholars have offered analyses of the "lesbian gaze" and the "queer gaze". [need more written about this]

Does this proposed rewrite adequately address the concerns listed above? Does it still retain the flavor and content of the existing article? Are there major areas that are not included? --LQ 16:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

And, there's a resounding silence. Come on. Let's get some discussion going, and some accord, so we can get those POV tags off the page. --lquilter 00:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
While it's great that we're discussing this issue, I take some issue with several parts of your rewrite. For one thing, it suffers from many weasel words (e.g., "a significant body of scholarship") and passive voice (e.g., "was first applied to an analysis of gender relations by Laura Mulvey"). There are also some confusing statements (e.g., "feminist scholarship analyzing the text of works ... permits analysis of the presumed (male) audience of the work" seems to imply that the scholarship will analyze, and be read by, men). There's also an apparent contradiction: in the paragraph discussing the "female gaze" being posited to be impossible or merely a type of "male gaze," the second part of the paragraph implies that a man being gazed upon disliked it in much the same way that some feminist scholars have discussed, contradicting the earlier assertions. The paragraph discussing the "Female Gaze" exhibit begins discussing that phenomenon, but then transitions into a quotation of a woman saying that (apparently) unattractive men enjoyed being gazed upon. I'm not sure the relevance of her opinion, or why it belongs in that paragraph.
Other than those criticisms, it seems much better, however. But it does still need quite a bit of work. --HarmonicFeather 21:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Great, please do some edits to improve it. My main hope is to fix the ridiculous oversegmentation and "POV" templates currently in the article. The weasel words that you mention pretty much come from the article itself, and I agree they should be fixed -- I added {{fact}} templates. ... As for the contradiction b/w female gaze & earlier assertions - yes there's an apparent contradiction in the text, as there is in the scholarly literature. A number of feminist scholars stated there was no female gaze; then some others came along & said no wait, there can be a female gaze. I tried to mark that with "However..." indicating contrast. It's all talking about the critical theoretical literature, so we are reporting on the way the field's scholarship has gone. ... HarmonicFeather is the main critic on the one side, so if we could get some comments from the other side that would be good.--lquilter 16:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I will try to do some edits on this soon. My main concern is that we keep the Wikipedia fair and neutral, as it is supposed to be, instead of allowing bias and hidden agendas to creep in and distort what are supposed to be encyclopedic articles. --HarmonicFeather 19:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Explain why gaze is unwanted

This article could be improved by explaining more clearly why some feminists feel threatened or harmed when people look at you. Is it painful to be seen? Is it damaging to be desired?

My whole life I have wondered why women refuse to make eye contact. How is one supposed to strike up an acquaintance with someone who pretends you don't even exist? Is not this studied avoidance a form of gender politics and power play? If a man lowers you by looking at you, wouldn't the best retaliation be to get even by looking back?

I think there is a lot of valuable information that could be added to this topic to help the genders understand each other's point of view. 72.208.56.148 13:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Reply: It is not painful to be seen or damaging to be desired. The problem, and the way in which gaze is different than simply seeing, is that the male gaze defines the thing it is viewing. So the gaze implies an imbalance of power, making the viewer a subject and the viewed an object. As a woman I exist only when seen by a man, and what the man chooses to see defines what I am. (The classic example of this is the guy who looks at my breasts, not my face, when he talks to me). 68.88.205.215 18:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I still don't understand. (And I'm not trying to argue with you, just to ferret out some information that could be added to the article.) If a man looking at your breasts turns you into an object and gains power over you, couldn't you even the score by looking at his crotch, turning him into an object and gaining power over him? 72.208.56.148 17:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems like a pertinent question, that has gone unanswered for over 8 months now. Can anyone improve the article by explaining how women who are allegedly harmed by male gaze can't just get even by gazing back? Or is this whole topic just a bunch of unsupportable baloney? 72.208.61.246 (talk) 21:04, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
There's more to the gaze than staring at breasts; it's much more subtle and pervasive than that. When it comes to breast-staring though, gazing back sometimes works, but not always. It depends if the gaze is aggressive or just clueless. If you gaze back at his face, it's usually interpreted as interest. If you stare at his crotch, the aggressive guy may still see it as a come-on. Giggling while staring at his crotch may prevent this, but could also provoke aggression. If you're a straight man, imagine being surrounded by much larger gay men who are staring intently at your body. Would you really want to stare back? (75.36.168.113 (talk) 16:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Controversy?

I'm not sure where the accusations of non-neutral POV are coming from, here. Male gaze is a feminist theory, and it's impossible to describe the theory without talking about feminist ideas. That's not non-neutral POV, that's writing a definition. I rewrote the male gaze section to describe what the theory is about; I have no agenda other than to let visitors to the page understand an influential idea. I haven't listed sources because, frankly, I'm late to breakfast, but I'd very much like it if before editing out my changes, you explain why my description of *what people mean when they say the words "male gaze"* is factually incorrect. An encyclopedic article about a theory should say what the theory is. That's not bias.Hlemonick 12:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I don't know what the problem is either. I just stumbled across this page, and the male gaze section is right in line with every theory I've ever been exposed to in women's studies and art history. Nothing POV about it, you've simply explained the concept.Rglong 17:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Hmm actually it could use some more explaining, because it seems to jump from the definition of "male gaze" as relating to a broad male-dominated social construct, to a more superficial definition of just guys looking at stuff, and then goes on to say that, hey, girls look at stuff too, whadyaknow. That's not exactly what "male gaze" is all about. "Male gaze" is significant in male-dominated cultures like ours because the balance of power between genders is inherently unfair to begin with, therefore even if a woman were to "gaze" at a man lustfully it wouldn't carry the same meaning or weight - the male is in power so the female has less power to objectify him except in rare, specific situations. I don't doubt men can be objectified by women and other men in certain contexts, and as women's equality progresses of course things are changing. But "male gaze" from my understanding does not apply to an idealistic future where women are finally equal to men, it applies to our time and the times just before us in our culture, in which men have social and economic power over women.
Long story short, I think it needs some sort of transition paragraph, more about the historical context to which it applies, and more about how progress in the equality of women may diminish male dominance and therefore diminish the importance of a specifically "male gaze".Rglong 17:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

What's missing is any acknowledgement that the "gaze" is any less certain a phenomenon than the sunset. Even for a statement as uncontroversial as "dinosaurs are cousins to the birds" one would acknowledge that there's a debate, and try to quote both sides. What's NPOV about this article is the way it innocently pretends the "gaze" is an established fact. We also need quotations from critics who regard it as paranoia towards hetero men. Surely Christina Hoff Summers or former NOW president Tammy Bruce could contribute a quotation or two about the Weltanschaung behind a concept like the male "gaze." Contemporary feminism embraces sex and shies away from neo Puritanism. There's even a new feminist field, Porn Studies! Here at SFSU we just held a conference on it. Best, Profhum (talk) 03:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The first sentence in the article describes it as a "concept", and it is referenced throughout as a theoretical philosophical construct. It doesn't "pretend" it's an established fact; it describes it as a theory, then describes the theory. God knows this article needs a lot of work; it's gone downhill as a result of people constantly trying to insert "masculinist" critiques of the theory to counterbalance some supposed feminist conspiracy, instead of just writing an article describing the concept and responses to the concept. So please do propose some specific edits and improvements, but please don't make specious arguments like "what's missing is any acknowledgement ... that 'gaze' ... is [not] a phenomenon." --Lquilter (talk) 17:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possible reference

I'm not sure how well this fits in with the way Wikipedia articles link to external sites, but this works fairly well as a "description" of the male gaze. The next few strips are good, too. IMFromKathlene 06:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More Foucault

I think this page needs to discuss the gaze as Foucault describes it more. It accepts that Foucault is one of the important figures in defining the gaze, and the article links to the medical gaze article, but it's missing details on Foucault's take on it, especially, I think, the gaze as its described in Discipline and Punish, the state's gaze as opposed to the medical gaze. That's where the unequal power relations really come into play. 71.232.78.188 02:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quality, readability, informativeness

This is one of the worst articles I've come across in WP, and I am speaking from no POV. It is full of jargon, and is in places nearly impenetrable. For starters, the introductory paragraph should focus on what the article is about and why it is important, rather than on where the concept comes from. Beyond its first sentence (which itself is not very helpful), it does little than mention things that will be completely unknown to anyone unfamiliar with the subject of the article. The section on "Forms of Gaze" (presumably the author means "Types of Gaze") does a poor job of defining the types, rather than just listing them (and linking to articles unhelpful in this context). "Effects of Gaze" has no structure worth mentioning, simply leaving the reader to find his or her own way out of the pool of mishmash. I suspect that this topic is notable, but it's hard to tell from the evidence adduced here. </spleen> Elphion (talk) 18:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)