Talk:Gascony

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basque Portal

This article is within the scope of the Basque WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Basque people, Basque Country, Basque language, history and culture. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
France Portal
Gascony is within the scope of WikiProject France, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.


Contents

[edit] About the map

The new map is not better. The left bank of the Adour river ( hence in Labourd and Lower Navarre ) is Gascon-speaking with the exception of Urcuit and Mouguerre. The Gascon language is also spoken in the easternmost "quartiers" of the very same Toulouse. See this map by André Borell : http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6538/toulousegasconlanguedocienpv5.jpg

As for the language of Agen, linguists see it as a mix between Gascon and more central Romance languages. The Bearnese village of Esquiule ( Eskiula in Basque, Esquiula in Gascon ) and parts of the village of Géronce ( Jeruntze in Basque ) are Basque-speaking whereas the Souletine villages of Osserain-Rivareyte, Gestas, Montory are Gascon-speaking.

Consequently, the previous map was better because simpler : between the Garonne river, the Pyrenees and the Atlantic. If we begin to make detailed maps, that's be hell.

[edit] Bayonne and Hossegor etymologies

This Etymology of Bayonne (Bjornhamn) is controversial. According to french wiki-article on Bayonne, is would be derived from Bai Ona,--Sugaar 23:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC) "the hill of the river", or "good river". Please cite your sources.

Etymology of Hossegor is also disputed. According to french wiki-article on Hossegor, it could come from " Hosse" and "gor" (deep ditch). Please cite reference.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by I-do-do-you? (talk • contribs) 20:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

I'm editing that section heavily. Baiona is clearly Ibai-on ("at the river" or "good river"), a Basque ethymology. Baiona was not founded by Vikings but just conquered. Baiona existed at least since Roman times (Lapurdum) and the first know charter was given by Willian IX of Aquitaine (see Labourd).
I have not the slightest idea about the other town but these Viking claims seem more than just far fetched. Vikings were in Baiona, for example, for something more than a century, leaving, no doubt some legacy but they never controlled inland country and there's no evidence or even indication that they pretended to "settle" the country or whatever. It was just part of their systematic incursions along all Atlantic Europe.
The claim that whale-hunting and the "discovery of Newfoundland" by Basques and Gascons are related to Scandinavian presence may have some merit but the way it is presented is totally POV. Actually Basques of Labourd hunted wales already in the 7th century, even if that hunt was maybe a coastal one. Also Scandinavians had nothing to do (apparently) with the developement of the rudder, that seems a Basque (Labourdine) developement of a later period. --Sugaar 23:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Bayonne is not directly Ibai+Ona according to most recent works as -ona (=good) is quite unknown in Basque toponymy which is above all purely descriptive. Baiona is Bai ( which evolved into ibai in modern Basque ) + Ona ( which a very old Basque root meaning hill, summit, ... ). Consequently, Baiona is the little summit near the river, which means the confluence between the Adour and the Nive.

[edit] Bayonne and Biarritz Gascon cities?

The reference to Bayonne and Biarritz as among the most important towns of Gascony would probably be strongly rejected by the inhabitants of these cities. Though Gascon-Occitanian nationalism/regionalism (a very weak current anyhow) does have some claim to the city of Bayonne (Baiona) and a small part of the inhabitants of that city do speak Gascon, that's not the case of Biarritz (Miarritze). Anyhow, both cities belong to the Basque historical region of Labourd (Lapurdi) and Basque language is much more extended (French is surely widely majoritarian nowadays). The claim of a separate Basque department (apart of Bearne) is overwhelmingly majoritarian among local politicans, no matter if they are Basque nationalists or they work inside whole-France parties. So, unless you consider the French Basque Country (Ipar Euskal Herria) as part of Gascony, which can have some historical reasons though, these Basque cities shouldn't be numbered among Gascon ones.

--Sugaar 21:58, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Some user put Bayonne and Biarritz a long time ago. I know there are claims these cities were historically part of Gascony, and there are claims for the opposite. You can delete it if you don't like it. Hardouin 2 July 2005 14:23 (UTC)
I've deleted Biarritz that is clearly not Gascon but kept Bayonne with a note: (arguably a Basque city), as it sometimes "claimed" by Gascons and has a Gascon-speaking minority. --Sugaar 03:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Bayonne has a double identity, Basque and Gascon. The basque community is the most important today, but in the late 19th century, the Basque would complain that most people spoke Gascon in Bayonne. I have asked the mapmaker to adapt the area of Gascony. Cheers. --Jibi44 11:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Bayonne has been Gascon-speaking since the Middle-Ages : the great majority of its toponymy is Romance and the remnants of Basque toponymy in the town are heavily gasconized. As a consequence, neighbouring village were also gasconized because of the town's influence ( it includes villages that are Landese such as Ondres<Ondartz, Tarnos<Tarnoze, ... ). Biarritz and Anglet were fully gasconized in the XVIIIth century. The Gascons were also present in the center-towns of Guétary/Getaria, St Jean de Luz/Donibane Lohizune and Bidart/Bidarte. St Sebastien/Donostia also used to have a Gascon minority. Bayonne's anthem is also in Gascon.


[edit] Basque elite or Basque character of Upper Medieval Gascony?

The author of the article states quite happily that the lords of Gascony were Basque while their subjects weren't, speaking a form of Romance that would evolve in Gascon.

Nevertheless, there's no evidence to sustain that and, in fact, it seems quite ilogical, however you look at it. Though the linguistic reality of VI-VIII centuries Wasconia (Gascony) is not known, it's very likely that Basque language and identity was much more extended northwards and eastwards than today. Most likely Basque was still spoken in most Gascony, along with a corrupted form of Latin that eventually gave birth to Gascon. At least three facts support this working hypothesis:

- Basque names found in funerary slabs of late Roman period, in what was then known as Novempopulania (Aquitania Tertia, Gascony), what seems to relate ancient Aquitanii with their neighbours south of the Pyrenees. Toponimy and genetic pool also confirm it.

- The very fact that the region is known as Vasconia or Wasconia: the land of the Vascones (Basque people). Though this name of Vascones is assigned originally (Estrabo) to a single tribe of what is now Navarre and northern Aragon, in the Middle Ages the name acquired an ethnical meaning, becoming the Latin/Romance synonim of Basque national name Euskaldunak: those who speak Basque.

- The fact that during personal union of the Duchies of Vasconia (Gascony) and Aquitaine (north and east of the Garonne) in the VIII century both territories remained separated, evidencing both historical and ethnic differences.

Additionally, Gascon is also, with Castilian (Spanish) and Aragonese, one of the three romance languages that show a very strong Basque influx in their evolution.

So I think this part of the article also needs to be reviewed to conform to Wikipedia standards of objectivity.

--Sugaar 21:58, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You are confusing the Basque language and the Aquitanian language. It is the Aquitanian language that was spoken in Gascony, not the Basque language. Both languages are related, but are not the same. By the time of the dukes of Gascony, the Aquitanian language had almost already disapeared. The dukes themselves spoke Basque, because they were invaders from the mountains where Basque was spoken. Later they spoke Gascon like the majority of the inhabitants of Gascony. Hardouin 2 July 2005 14:10 (UTC)
Well, we don't know how close they were related (the same): they were probably just dialects of each other (in fact Basque language is actually three, but for rasons of number, is being unified). In any case, I use Basque and Aquitanian indistinctly when speaking of languages, sometimes Basco-Aquitanian, whatever: it tells of the same reality.
You also don't have any reason to know wether Aquitanian language had disappeared either. It may have been the case in some regions and not yet in others. We can infer from the Aquitanian slabs (simmilar to others in La Rioja and low Navarre) that bilinguism was a reality in the outer ring, in the late Roman period, but then came the Bagaudae and the de facto independence. The Basque ethnicity was not then aristocratic in organization, nor I think that were Aquitanians either, so why those "elites"?
The case is that Basque (from a an ancient tribe called Vascones) was in the Middle Ages extended to deal with the whole Basco-Aquitanian area: the tribal independent region that basically spoke euskara (Basco-Aquitanian), primary identitarian concept in Basque (and logically also in Aquitanian). That there were several dialects or related languages (whatever you prefer) is not really relevant but actually trying to confuse things, as if Basques were a perfectly homogeneous group and would never had tribes nor separate dialects.
Also the Northern Basque Country was in Roman times considered Aquitania (Novempopulania). They surely spoke Aquitanian, their own Aquitanian dialects: central or eastern Basque.
I agree that eventually Gascon replaced Basque. No problem with that, but the name and history of the region is better understood once you realize that early Gascons were Basques (Basco-Aquitanians, euskaldunak, whatever term you prefer).
Those theories about invasions by Basques are totally unrealistic and part of official French history. There was no invasion, it was a rebellion against feudalization. --Sugaar 04:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Otsoa, Loup and... Lobo?

Definitively Lobo was not the Medieval Castilian form of this extint name, but actually it was Lope (frome where the common surname López: son of Lope). Lobo does mean wolf in modern Spanish but it has never been used as name in that form.

--Sugaar 21:58, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lobo is the name found in Spanish history books, that's why I used it. You can check this for an example where the name Lobo is used: [1]. Lope was the medieval Castillian version, but it seems now historians in Spain prefer to use the name Lobo. Hardouin 2 July 2005 14:22 (UTC)
I understand. But we are talking about an English Wikipedia article on a country where Spanish has never been spoken, so at least translate it to English, man!
Lop is the Gascon form (Otsoa in Basque, Loup in French). --Sugaar 04:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More, Please!

Great article. However, could the person who wrote it ad a bit more detail, or at least more sub-articles, by writing up the red links? Fergananim

[edit] Spain vs. France

I'm not sure about this, but on a Travel Channel show I heard that the residents of Gascony are a mix of French and Spanish. They also said that the people of Gascony are under the rule of Spain and France, which does not make sense because it's part of France. Can someone clear this up?

The small spanish Aran Valley is, historically speaking, a part of Gascony. The local dialect is gascon, like on the other side of the border. That may explain why the show makes such an allusion to Spain. But most of Gascony is as a matter of fact in France. --Jibi44 09:13, 2 August 2007 (UTC)