User talk:Gary J

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==Welcome== Hello Gary J and welcome to Wikipedia! I'm glad you've chosen to join us. This is a great project with lots of dedicated people, which might seem intimidating at times, but don't let anything discourage you. Be bold!, explore, and contribute. If you want to learn more,

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Contents

[edit] List of UK Parliamentary Constituencies in Ireland 1801-1885

Hi there. I was just wondering why you deleted the information from the List of UK Parliamentary Constituencies in Ireland 1801-1885 article. Thanks :-) Akamad 08:58, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

It seems there is a duplication of the material, with List of UK Parliament Constituencies in Ireland and Northern Ireland. I assume that is why you wanted to remove the information from the List of UK Parliamentary Constituencies in Ireland 1801-1885 article. I am not informed about this topic, so I was wondering which page you think should remain? Because that way, the unneeded article can be redirected to the other. - Akamad 09:11, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments. The imformation from the original List of UK Parliamentary Constituencies in Ireland 1801-1885 is included in List of UK Parliament Constituencies in Ireland and Northern Ireland, which covers all constituencies in Ireland from the start of the Union to the present day. Thanks for the link, so I can sort this out.

Gary J 27 December 2005

[edit] Reform Act 1832

Good work on this! Interesting to see there were lots of different linked statutes. Morwen - Talk 12:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] MPs from Scotland 1707

I see you've started on this. Have you got the History of Parliament 1690-1715 books? This includes Sir James Smollett as a member of the Court slate of Scots MPs, who is not on the page you wrote. His entry in the book does not indicate that he was chosen later.

For what it's worth, here's what I had on the Scots members of the first GB Parliament:

45 Members delegated from the Scottish Parliament to the Union Parliament. They were mostly chosen from Court supporters who had been loyal over the union, although 11 (possibly 12) later supported the Squadrone who had offered critical support. Two of those who had opposed the Union were included on the list, probably because they were thought to be strong general supporters of the Court Party and were forgiven this momentary dissent.

ALEXANDER ABERCROMBY                    Ct
GEORGE ALLARDICE                        Ct
GEORGE BAILLIE                          Sq
WILLIAM BENNET                          Ct
JOHN BRUCE                              Sq
SIR THOMAS BURNETT, Bt.                 Ct
DANIEL CAMPBELL                         Ct
SIR JAMES CAMPBELL, Bt.                 Ct
JAMES CAMPBELL                          Ct
HON. JOHN CAMPBELL                      Ct
JOHN CLERK                              Ct
JOHN COCKBURN                           Sq
HON. SIR DAVID DALRYMPLE, Bt.           Ct
HON. WILLIAM DALRYMPLE                  Ct
SIR ALEXANDER DOUGLAS                   Ct
ARCHIBALD DOUGLAS                       Ct
SIR JOHN ERSKINE, Bt.                   Sq
JOHN ERSKINE                            Ct
MUNGO GRAHAM                            Sq
ALEXANDER GRANT                         Ct
JOHN HALDANE                            Sq
SIR PETER HALKETT, Bt.                  Sq
JAMES HALYBURTON                        Sq
HON. SIR ANDREW HUME                    Sq
SIR PATRICK JOHNSTONE                   Ct
SIR JOHN JOHNSTONE, Bt.                 Ct
SIR WILLIAM KERR, Bt.                   Sq
HON. SIR KENNETH MACKENZIE, Bt.         Ct
HON. ALEXANDER MAITLAND                 Ct
PATRICK MONCREIFF                       Ct
HON. FRANCIS MONTGOMERIE                Ct
HUGH MONTGOMERIE                        Ct (Anti-union)
WILLIAM MORISON                         Ct
JOHN MURRAY                             Ct
WILLIAM NISBET                          Sq
HON. PATRICK OGILVY                     Ct
SIR ROBERT POLLOCK, Bt.                 Ct
JOHN PRINGLE                            Ct
SIR DAVID RAMSAY, Bt.                   Ind (Anti-union)
HUGH ROSE                               Ct
JAMES SCOTT                             Ct
WILLIAM SETON                           Ct/Sq?
SIR JAMES SMOLLETT                      Ct
HON. JOHN STEWART                       Ct
SIR JOHN SWINTON                        Ct

This list has some different spellings of names from your list. David | Talk 23:38, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for this information. I will use it to replace the existing list of Scottish MPs in my article. It did seem unlikely that the Scottish Parliament would leave one of its 45 seats in the new House of Commons vacant.
I have looked at the History of Parliament books in the past, but not on this specific issue. Unfortunately my finances do not permit me to buy my own copy (only £300 for the 1690-1715 volumes), so I will have to visit one of the larger reference libraries to research matters from this definitive secondary source.
In the meantime I have been using Lee Rayment's site as a source for the 1707-08 MPs. I also looked at the names in The Parliaments of England by Henry Stooks Smith (1st edition in 3 vols. 1844-50), 2nd edition edited in one volume by F.W.S. Craig (Political Reference Publications 1973). This source relates Scottish MPs to constituencies in 1707, but some of the names are totally different from Rayment's list (and others have variant spellings). I concluded this list was unreliable as it assigned John Cockburn to three constituencies. Different names seemn to have been in short supply amongst 18th century Scottish politicians, but three John Cockburn's in one Parliament seemed unlikely.
Gary J --Gary J 09:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Numbering of Parliaments

Can you check List of Parliaments of Great Britain and List of Parliaments of the United Kingdom to check the numbering and election info? I think the first one is off-by-one in its numbers given the content of 1st Parliament of Great Britain. Not sure about the latter though. Morwen - Talk 16:28, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

in fact, looking further, I'm certain the first one is off by one, so I'll make the necessary adjustment myself. It would be good if you could still look at them both though. Morwen - Talk 16:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What was the official title of pre-Union Scottish MPs?

I assume that the correct title for all members of the English Parliament (pre 1707) and British Parliament (post 1707) is Member of Parliament (MP), hence "Joe Bloggs MP", even going back into the mists of time (13th, 14th, 15th centuries?)

However, as far as I can establish, the members of the pre-Union Parliament of Scotland were not called "Member of Parliament" or "MP". Frustratingly though I cannot find an authoritative source that does tell me what the heck they were called. My best guess at present is "Commissioner of Parliament", although "The Commissioner" appears to have been the Speaker, so I am bamboozled. (The Wikipedia article calls them "Burgh commissioners" and "Shire commissioners" - no capital "C" used; but we are not supposed to use Wikipedia articles as sources _ WP:NOR).

Unfortunately you, yes you, have only increased my frustration, because in your pretty table at List of Constituencies in the Parliament of Scotland at the time of the Union, you have used a column header that tantalisingly just says "Csrs" - no explanation forthcoming!

So a few questions:

  • What was a member of the old Scots Parliament called?
  • Did he (I assume they were 100% male) get to use nice letters after his name, eg "Hector Keith Csr"?
  • I assume a Lordship of Parliament was not the same as an ordinary (elected) member?
  • Was "Commissioner" (or whatever) always the title, or back in the mists of time were they called something else?
  • What did the old Scottish Parliament call itself? Most sources call it the Scots Parliament or auld/old Scots Parliament. I had thought that it was the Estates of Scotland, but that seems to be parliament plus clergy.

In summary, I am confused, and Wikipedia is not very helpful in these regards. You are the guy with the books. Can you help?--Mais oui! 11:37, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Upon reflection "Commissioner to Parliament" seems more logical than "Commissioner of Parliament".--Mais oui! 11:45, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry to have caused confusion. I will give you my understanding of the position (subject to further research).
  • The Parliament of Scotland was also known as the Estates. It was a unicameral body which had members representing different groups. I am not aware of a usage equivalent to Member of Parliament either for all members or just the elected ones.

As far as I am aware the elected members were always known as commissioners.

  • This is a link to a website which gives a relatively short but scholarly history of the Parliament.

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~scotparl/history.html --Gary J 13:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

    • I have looked at Andrew Fletcher and the Treaty of Union, by Paul Henderson Scott (Saltire Society 2004), to see if I can find some quotes confirming how Scottish Parliamentarians were referred to. An English agent described Fletcher as having been a Knight of the Shire of Lothian (but that may be using the English rather than the Scottish title). George Lockhart of Carnwath (another member of the Parliament) refers to Fletcher "being elected a Parliament man in the year 1703". The author of the book says that Fletcher was duly elected one of the four Commissioners for the Shire of Haddington. This may be as far as I can help without looking at more official original sources. --Gary J 14:30, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Further thoughts on nomenclature. The enacting formula for Scottish legislation was Her Majestie with advice and consent of the Estates of Parliament Statutes Enacts and Ordains That. This suggests that the official title for the legislature was the Estates of Parliament.
    • The presiding officer of the Parliament was the Lord Chancellor of Scotland. The Lord Commissioner was the representative of the Monarch in Scotland.
    • The elected members were the Commissioner for (wherever). Given the variable nature of spelling and punctuation pre-1707 it probably is equally correct to use an upper case or lower case c. For what it is worth the Act of the Scottish Parliament concerning the election of Scottish Representatives to the British Parliament uses a capital C for Commissioner and Commissioners.
    • Lord of Parliament is a rank in the Scottish peerage equivalent to Baron in the English peerage.

--Gary J 20:29, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I had sussed some of that out myself since I left the message, but I do appreciate your info. As you may see from your Watchlist I have done some edits on these articles today. It appears that the whole Parliament of Scotland article was originally a rip-off of that St Andrews paper! (copyright issues?)

Anyway, I believe that this area of Wikipedia is much neglected, and I hope that we can make some progress in the future.--Mais oui! 20:53, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] autoblock

I couldn't find the autoblock in question, so it may already have expired or been cleared by another admin. -- Curps 14:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Thanks for trying, The problem does seem to have gone away. --Gary J 17:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reform Act

I simplified the article Reform Act extensively. The article was very confusing, especially to an American. It seemed more like a lesson on the meaning of the word Reform Act than a disambiguation page. I also removed a lot of the acts which were named "representation of the people" etc and tried to remove information covered in the redirected articles. I realize I do not know much about the British parliament and you are certainly more knowledgeable than I. Feel free to change anything back to how it was.

Earlopogous 02:21, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Factory Acts

Also, could you help out on the article Factory Acts? I know very little about it and struggled to get the acts all under one article. Perhaps you could help expand it.

Earlopogous 02:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of enfranchised boroughs in Reform Act 1832

I'm unhappy with this list. The external link says that Stockport and Oldham were enfranchised in 1832, as does the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica - which the list doesn't mention. The list also claims that Birkenhead returned 1 member from 1832 - which does not appear to be true. Can you have a look at this? Thanks, Morwen - Talk 13:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree Stockport and Oldham were granted two seats each in 1832. Birkenhead was a special case. It was a new constituency created in mid Parliament, in 1861, between the First and Second Reform Acts. It looks like the list needs to be checked thoroughly. --Gary J 13:52, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I have revised the enfranchised lists and I believe they are now correct. I have also ensured that most links are to constituency articles rather than the town or county ones. I think that is more appropriate for an article about changes to constituencies. --Gary J 15:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UK Parliament constituency / Dáil Éireann constituency

Hi,

I think you've rushed into something here without having really thought it through in advance. Ι can understand that titles such as Waterford (UK Parliament constituency) may sound strange condsidering that the MP elected in 1918 chose to sit as a TD at Dáil Éireann, but the best thing would have been to modify the title of the existing page instead of creating a confusing duplicate.

It is important to recognise that the elections in 1918 were held for UK constituencies and the polls were carried out by government officials. Only retrospectively did they become Dáil Éireann constituencies. Furthermore, the elections held to the Second Dáil (in which there was no contest in SF held constituencies) was at a timing determined by the British government and not Dáil Éireann.

You (and Wikipedia) would have been far better off if you had sought to raise this anomoly first with other users and to have perhaps sought to have the title of the original page modified. For your information, I have raised the matter on the Irish Wikipedians' notice board.--Damac 08:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if you'd agree or not, but I see the answer to the problem as being that those constituencies were UK ones until the 'official' setting up of the Free State, and should therefore be renamed to reflect that. In effect, at that time, the Dáil was a local parliament and the whole island was part of the UK in 1918. I consider his changes to be tinged with POV. --Mal 10:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

There are two separate issues:

  1. What should the articles be called?
  2. Never use a copy and paste into a new article for something which should be done with a move.

The first should be raised on the talk pages of the articles in question. Maybe start the discussion on one page and post a notice on the others. The second is just a mistake. You should immediately tag the newly created pages with {{Db-author}} (note that only Gary J can do this). Then move the pages if that's the conclusion of the discussion. --Craig Stuntz 13:41, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Thank you for your comments. I did have reasons for having two articles for each constituency. (1) The UK and Irish Republic constituencies were not the product of the same legal order, even though the geography and elections were the same. The constituencies were defined and the elections run by the UK for one purpose but used by Irish Republicans for another. One was a continuation of the UK legal order, the other was the result of a revolutionary breach of legal continuity which in the republican view affected the whole of Ireland. If you look at the pairs of articles I have done you will see that the information I set out overlaps but is not identical. (2) The main reason why I had seperate articles was to avoid confusion between the pre-1918 UK constituency articles and the post-1922 Dáil constituency articles. It seems that confusion has still arisen so my idea may need to be modified. (3) I also felt that to preserve a neutral POV between unionist and republican theories of what was going on in Ireland 1918-1922, it was best to have different articles. I realise it is a case of smoke and mirrors but that is very typical of the period. We do for example have individual articles for the Second Dáil, the Southern Ireland House of Commons and the House of Commons of Northern Ireland. These institutions overlap in precisely the same ways as the constituencies do. I further note that the Republic of Ireland does take account of the First and Second Dála in the numbering of the modern Dáil, which does imply that they were a bit more than gatherings of members of other bodies.
  • Having said that, if it is the consensus of those interested in the subject, that there should be only one article for each constituency in each period then that would be less work. I presume the suggestion is that the UK constituency articles about the seats used for the 1918-22 UK Parliament would include a section about the First Dáil. The Northern Ireland Parliament constituencies articles would include a section about the Second Dáil. Dáil Éireann constituency articles (for seats in the Irish Free State) could commence in 1921 with a section about the Southern Ireland House of Commons and the Second Dáil. The same constituencies were used in 1921 and 1922 and they were distinct from those used for the UK Parliament.
  • If this scheme is agreed I could modify the list of historic Dáil constituencies to link up to whichever article contained the relevant information.
  • Another point is that it might be helpful to have a consensus on what information should be included in a constituency article. The minimum seems to me to be a one or two sentence introduction, followed by about four-six sections. (1) A brief description of what the constituency covered and previous and subsequent constituencies covering the area (which I have tended to call Boundaries and Boundary Changes). Numbers of seats at particular periods of the constituency history could be included here. (2) An optional section about Politics. This is the one which could be long, short or absent depending upon available information. (3) An optional section about the bodies the elected member(s) could have served in 1918-1922, for those constituencies which were affected. (4) A list of members elected, their dates of election or periods of service and party. Possibly including dates of birth and death, but that is less critical. (5) Elections. Brief statement of the type of election system followed by results. This is fairly straightforward for first past the post and bloc vote elections but more difficult for STV ones. I notice that the articles about the current Dáil constituencies do not set out the counts in full. Is it felt worthwhile to try to give full results (subject to availability of the information) or just aim at the first preference figures? (6) Reference, see also and external sources. Perhaps these should be in seperate sub-sections rather than sections.
  • I have been a bit long winded but hopefully we can all agree what the template to follow should be. --Gary J 16:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to avoid discussing how the problem should be resolved as that discussion should take place on the article talk page rather than here. But I will emphasize that while telling the full story and keeping the POV neutral are important, forking the articles is a counterproductive way to do it. --Craig Stuntz 18:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

  • I have now consolidated the Mid Down articles. If there are any comments about this, before I start doing this more widely, see Talk:Mid Down (UK Parliament constituency). I have also copied my above suggestions about the format of constituency articles, so anyone who is inyerested can comment there. --Gary J 19:41, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has been reverted or removed by an automated bot. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. If you feel you have received this notice in error, please contact the bot owner // Tawkerbot2 23:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] tawkerbot2

Sorry about that. I believe the problem has been corrected, and I reverted tawkerbot2. Thanks for your patience. joshbuddytalk 00:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

== Help ==http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_sig.png Your signature with timestamp

Hi, I tried adding Independent Republican (Ireland) to Index_of_United_Kingdom_political_parties_meta_attributes and seemed to have messed things up. How can this be fixed?--Damac 10:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

  • After a bit of experimentation I discovered the problem was that you had left a gap in the meta-color template, between the colour and the no-include category section. I have now fixed this. I am not sure if you wanted to use 'green' (as on the template), or the code in the index. They are both currently green, which is fine unless the Independent Republican candidates stand against some other party or group using the same shade of green, when the issue might have to be revisited.
  • However I do not think you will run into problems with the Parnellite Nationalists and the Sinn Féin colour looks to be slightly different, so it seems green will be ok.

--Gary J 11:27, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi again, Gary,
As this page shows[1], some electoral candidates ran as "Republican" candiates in UK elections in the North. The candidate shown here was an IRA member but there is no evidence to suggest he was in Sinn Féin. The United_Kingdom_general_election,_1950 page lists Sinn Féin as a contesting party. Back in the 1940s and 1950s, the relationship between SF and the IRA was not as we know it today. Should be create a new party category perhaps? How about "Republican (electoral candidate)|Republican". Then, as the date has been compiled, a "List of Republican candiates in NI elections", showing all SF, Ind Republican, Republican, etc., could be made.--Damac 08:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Hi, Damac
  • There have certainly been various republican type candidates using different labels in UK elections. As I understand it this is due to periods when Sinn Féin was banned in the UK or chose not to participate in elections under its own name, as well as splits within the republican movement. I am not sure that there ever was an Irish Republican Party but there were Irish Republican candidates.
  • It is a question of definition how widely you should draw the line in preparing a list. Would you include Republican Labour Party candidates or Workers Party ones? Perhaps, in the sort of article you are suggesting, it is better to be as inclusive as possible and provide brief details and links to all arguably republican groups. How should we treat the Unity candidates in the 1970s like Bernadette Devlin? Should she be regarded as a republican or a nationalist? Indeed is it possible to draw a firm distinction between nationalists and republicans? Perhaps the article should feature all Northern Ireland groups outside the unionist tradition, non-aligned parties like APNI and the NI affiliates of UK parties. The total number of nationalist/republican UK MPs from Northern Ireland, since 1922, is not that great.
  • I usually follow F.W.S. Craig for party labels. In British Parliamentary Election Results 1950-1973 he identifies some candidates in Northern Ireland as Republican. No doubt I could go through this and other volumes of his election results and identify republican candidates using this or other labels.

--Gary J 11:41, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Gary,
Yes, the use of terms such as Republican or Independent Republican was in part a way of avoiding the ban on Sinn Féin, a more recognisable political label.
No, there was never an "Irish Republican Party", but I still think the title "Republican" should be made into a label in some way.
For inclusion on the list I proposed, two criteria would have to be met: 1. that the candidate was a member or closely associated with the IRA, and 2. that the candidate ran on an abstentionist ticket. That would include SF, Rep or Ind Rep candidates and exclude Nat Party, Unity, Rep Lab and others. Basically, the distintion is between physical force republicans on the one hand, and constitutional nationalists on the other.
True, the total number of Republican minded MPs was minor. Nevertheless, compiling a list of all physical force/abstentionist candidates would allow for an analysis of the strength of the republican tradition in NI over the years.
Best, --Damac 13:07, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Renaming proposal

Hi Gary,

I'd like to bring this to your attention: Category_talk:Parliamentary_constituencies_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland.--Damac 06:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Thanks. By jumping in to the category of historic Irish constituency articles I do seem to have created confusion. I hope we get the widest possible consensus, so I can carry on with filling in content for the articles, without having to change the titles of all of them every few months. --Gary J 09:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irish constituencies

Hi Gary, thanks for your message on User talk:BrownHairedGirl, and sorry for the delay in replying. I have written a long reply to the discussion at Category talk:Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland#The_case_for_a_consistent_naming_format, and I'd particularly welcome your thoughts on it all, since you did so much of the inital spadework and have done so much of the ongoing work on these constituencies. --BrownHairedGirl 13:45, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Knights of the Shire, Bucks

You may want to change the numbering on your "G. de Braybroke"s. The "G." presumably expands to "Gerard", and there were several men of that name: [www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp this] suggests Gerard (d. between 1316 & 1324), father of Gerard (d. 1350), father of Sir Gerard (d. 1359), father of Gerard, (d. ?), father of ? (d. 1389), and a final Gerard (d. 1422 or 1427). Probably the first sat in 1300, 1301 and 1309 and the second in 1336 and 1341. Choess 19:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Thanks for your suggestion. I was concerned that some of the entries were for different people with the same name. My difficulty in providing more details was that I accumulated information about elections, particulary in Bucks, from different sources over a period of twenty years or so. I may not be able to re-locate all of them now. I do not seem to have recorded the first names of the knights of the shire (although I will try to locate my original notes or the book I got the names from). I do not recall that the source tried to distinguish between different people with the same name, although it probably did give the first names.
  • Incidentally the guesses you made about losing candidates in Berkshire were correct. Entries in the Who's Who of British Members of Parliament, confirmed they were the people who had contested Berkshire. --Gary J 19:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I've marked the Grenvilles as Whigs, my understanding being that they and their faction were Whigs until 1822, when the newly-minted Duke of Buckingham and Chandos came in with a Tory government. If I'm wrong about this, though, as well I may be, by all means emend it. Thanks for all your entries, BTW — this is good material. Choess 19:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks. I have looked at the question in some detail in Talk:Buckinghamshire (UK Parliament constituency). I accept your changes. It seems Stooks Smith, who I was following in calling the Grenvilles Tory, was reading back the politics of his day into the 18th century. Lord Grenville also seems to have parted with the orthodox Pittites after Pitt's death, when he formed the Ministry of all the Talents, which is no doubt why he continued to be labelled Whig when Pitt was re-labelled Tory. --Gary J 20:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] House of Lords Reform

I saw your contributions on this subject. The thing is, there has not been any reform at all. All thats happened is the hereditaries were expelled by a socialist government whose party had always been in favour of such a move. I've seen several articles which say the hereditary peer in question had "left" because of "reform". Not sure they'd see it that way. Have you read both Lord Sudeley's booklets on this subject, or Viscount Masserene's book? William Wyndham also wrote a book a few years back on Lords Reform. 81.129.155.181 22:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

  • House of Lords 'reform', as defined by the Labour Party, has more to do with eliminating the hereditary peers than making more significant changes. I am not however sure that neutral POV requires much consideration of the point of view of the hereditary peerage although some reference to it may be appropriate. I am afraid I have not read the publications you mention. If you would like to incorporate any relevant information in the article, that may assist the article. --Gary J 23:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Constituencies in the next UK general election

Gary - superb work on the constituencies article. Many thanks for the help =)

If you can help out with the boundary info - the "barely changed", "addition of neighbouring areas" bits - that would be a great help too

Cheers again

doktorb wordsdeeds 06:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Thanks. I have been keeping in touch with the progress of the various reviews, so I can extract and summarise information from the reports of the Boundary Commissions. It may be a fairly slow process though. Presumably the entries for the Welsh seats, as the final boundaries are known, should be considered first. Is there an agreed definition of what is a minor change? F.W.S. Craig, at the start of a new redistribution, drew a distinction between changes that affected 5% or less of the electorate and more extensive ones. --Gary J 11:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
    • I have been using "minor changes" from personal discretion or personal knowledge, it is not always scientific. I agree that Wales should be considered first and think, from memory, that the significantly altered seats are complete. doktorb wordsdeeds 15:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1754 MPs

Excellent job! I've been filling in some gaps and doing disambiguation from Leigh Rayment's stuff; would you mind just quickly glancing over those names as you fill it in? There are occasional (deliberate?) errors in his lists, and while they're usually more or less obvious, your source is probably a bit more reliable. I have made some small corrections. I believe Sir Edward Walpole was returned for Great Yarmouth that year, not his brother Horace. And while I haven't corrected it yet, I believe that it was the then Sir Charles Powlett (at the time of the election; he would take the courtesy title of Marquess of Winchester in August) who was returned for Hampshire, rather than his younger brother, Harry. So, at least, says thePeerage.com, based on Cokayne. Incidentally, it's been our custom to distinguish between the substantive Duke of X (in whichever peerage) and the courtesy Marquess of Y by referring to them as "The Duke of X" and "Marquess of Y," but I have no objection to the style with the numbers you've been using.

It really gladdens me to see someone plugging away at big, systematic compilations of lists like this. The cross-referencing that hypertext offers, so that you can see the chains of succession in offices, the full array of offices a given person held, etc., all laid out in tabular format, is a big improvement over paper reference works, in my opinion. I really appreciate the work you've been doing towards that. Choess 11:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Thanks for the encouragement and help. I do have a tendency to embark on big projects (wisely or unwisely). I just happen to have the sort of personality which likes compiling lists. I have been doing it since I was a child and now I have discovered Wikipedia I can produce lists which may interest and help others.
  • Namier and Brook's election results by constituency are not necessarily 100% reliable on the exact name/title used by an MP when elected. I was going to cross check the results with the individual biographies in the other part of the book, which give a lot of detail and dates, when I had finished the basic list. I was particularly concerned that I had so many Horatio Walpole's (you can see why the writer was known as Horace rather than by his full name). I managed to identify three of them from Leigh Rayment's peerage records, so your solution to the remaining one at Great Yarmouth is helpful. Although I believe the History of Parliament Trust publications should be regarded as the gold standard in this area, I would not be surprised to find some errors in them given the number of relatives with similar names and titles contesting elections in the eighteenth century. I suppose the motto should be 'trust, but verify'.
  • As you request, I will check your entries as well as my own as I go through the source I have access to. --Gary J 13:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I have checked the tangled web of the Powlett family: Lord Harry Powlett (1691-1759), brother of the 3rd Duke of Bolton, was re-elected MP for Hampshire in the 1754 general election. On 26 August 1754 he became 4th Duke of Bolton. His son, Sir Charles Powlett K.B. (1718-65), acquired the courtesy title of Marquess of Winchester on his father's succession to the Dukedom. He gave up his previous seat at Lymington, to be elected MP for Hampshire on 25 December 1754 (they must have been dedicated to public service to hold even an uncontested election on Christmas Day). Winchester retained the Hampshire seat until he became 5th Duke of Bolton on 9 October 1759. The 5th Duke's younger brother, Lord Harry Powlett (1720-94), had not contested the 1754 general election. He was elected MP for Lymington in 1755, to replace his brother. Powlett became 6th Duke of Bolton on 5 July 1765.
    • I also checked and confirm that between us we seem to have sorted out the Walpoles. --Gary J 19:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Constituencies blah blah

Hey Gary. Seen the article you have created, could be a good help.

I don't want to sound prissy or argumentative, but I feel we all need to keep an eye on the articles - they are prone to all manner of "I know best" behaviour - and the more the project falls apart, the less chance we all have of getting the articles right in time for the next election.

doktorb wordsdeeds 20:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I do not take these things personally. I was coming to the conclusion that I would be better off putting effort into ensuring there were at least some stubs of articles (which could be built upon later), rather than huge projects where my vision did not seem to be shared by anyone else. --Gary J 22:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Templates

FYI, if you want to test alterations to templates, Template:X1 and friends are sandboxes: you can replace the entirety of its content with the template you're working on to see if it works. Just request to have it cleared when you're done. (Or don't; it'll automatically be reset in 12 hours). Choess 04:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


  • Gary I've just realised that there literally isn't time to get the Lords reform article into shape before the vultures circling kill it off. I thought, if I spent today on it, I'd be at a state where they'd be positive comments. Unfortunately, its all taken much longer than I thought. Sorry, I'm very tired, because I've been at this for 30 hours on the trot and I've decided I've had enough ... Mike 19:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lords Reform

Gary, I've created a new account User:LordsReform. If you go to the front page, you'll see what I've done. Basically, I wanted to make a common resource that did not belong to me, and which can be edited by others. I'm utterly amazed that Wikipedia doesn't have this facility. To me that's like garage not having a workshop, in which to fix cars. I've aslo removed three of the pages and put them in the workspace of LordsReform to take away some of the heat.

LordsReform 13:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Gary, the Vultures have been scared off Lords Reform, thankfully both the main and the historical article have remained, once I've got the main article working OK, I intedn to get a better version of the other articles. I'd welcome another set of eyes, to double check what I've writtern! --LordsReform 18:56, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I am pleased to hear progress is being made. I am tied up at the moment with a project to produce a list of official names of UK Parliamentary constituencies, but I will look at the House of Lords material in the next few days. --Gary J 19:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ambiguity, Tyrone North

If you aren't too busy, would you be willing to check something from Rayment against your sources? He says that Lord Ernest William Hamilton was MP for Tyrone North from 1885 to 1895, but there are intimations elsewhere that his brother, Lord Frederick Spencer Hamilton, may have been the MP for part of that time. Which is correct? Thanks, Choess 20:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

My sources confirm that Lord Ernest William Hamilton was elected in 1885 and 1886, serving 1885-1892. Lord Frederick Spencer Hamilton was elected in 1892 and served 1892-1895. I checked with Parliamentary Election Results in Ireland, 1801-1922, The Constitutional Year Book 1900 and Who's Who of British Members of Parliament, Vol. II 1886-1918 so I suspect this information is correct. --Gary J 19:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! Much appreciated. It seems to be an error in Rayment's listings. Choess 00:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers

Hi Gary. I don't know if you've really thought through the problems addings numbers to the info box will create to the historical seats. A VERY large percentage of them have changed over the years from 1 to 3 and even 3 members. Thats why we have not added them into the info boxes in the past. I'm not totally against it but would suggest going to the discussion page first before carry on with the additions. Thanks. Galloglass 03:27, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Shouldnt write comments when I'm not really awake. I see you've only done the single member constituencies. Thats fine, so please ignore above comments :) Cheers Galloglass 03:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the comment. When I was adding infoboxes recently I avoided seats with changes in numbers of MPs, because of uncertainty as to how to deal with them. It is a similar problem to seats which changed between borough and county constituencies. I have sometimes dealt with that by using more than one infobox, but I suspect more than two infoboxes would not be ideal. --Gary J 11:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of multi-member constituencies in the United Kingdom and predecessor Parliaments

Hello there. This article you created is very impressive, a wonderful piece of work you are to be congratulated. One question on it though, can you provide the source that gives the Multi-member constituencies in Ireland constituency of Derry, Donegal and Tyrone. I ask as I find it hard to believe that these constituencies, based on the counties created by the British, would have been named Derry and not Londonderry as that was (and still is) the name of the county. Any assistance on this matter that you can provide would be appreciated. Ben W Bell talk 15:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I have not completed the Irish section of the article yet, mostly just the Irish multi-member constituencies during Oliver Cromwell's Protectorate.
The source for the constituency name is an ordinance made by the Lord Protector and Council of State (of the Commonwealth), under authority given to it in the Instrument of Government (the first British written constitution - which the average British citizen has never heard of). For the text of the ordinance see [2].
On researching the history of the name dispute I see 'Londonderry' was introduced in the early 17th century. I do not know why the ultra Protestant republican government in London used 'Derry', but it may be that the prefix was either unknown to them or seen as unimportant at that time. Perhaps the English officials, who probably had no local knowledge of Ulster, were using an out of date map when they determined the electoral districts in Ireland? I think it was not until after the siege of the city in 1689 that the symbolism of 'Londonderry' became important. For that matter the text of the Redistribution of Seats Act 1885, as printed in an official collection of statutes, refers to the county as Derry (although the county constituencies it established were known as North Londonderry and South Londonderry).
I have set out all the 1654-1658 constituencies in the First Protectorate Parliament article. I know the Third Protectorate Parliament in 1659 reverted to the pre-Civil War seat distribution in England and Wales, but I have found reference to one of the Scottish constituencies in the Commons journal so it seems that the Scottish and Irish constituencies were represented in it. --Gary J 17:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't doubt your sources, but something is wrong here. County Londonderry has never been known as County Derry in an official capacity, it went straight from County Coleraine to County Londonderry in 1613, never a County Derry. If you have sources that say otherwise that would blow a massive hole in the history of the county that would be of interest to many. Ben W Bell talk 19:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I am no expert in the development and history of the county system in Ireland. If you look at the list of constituencies in the Protectorate Parliament there were some unusual names or variants of names used. We may have to wait until the History of Parliament Trust publishes its volume for 1640-1660 (due in 2016), for an explanation. [3] --Gary J 20:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I have now read the account about the county in the Topographical Directory of Ireland. Clearly my speculations on the name are contradicted by this source. It seems the Cromwellian regime was well aware of 'Londonderry', so I am unable to explain the use of 'Derry' in the ordinance. Without additional sources I do not think I can help further. [4] --Gary J 20:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Parliamentary constituencies in Cornwall.

Thanks for your comments, it would be much appreciated. LessHeard vanU 13:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why there are 2 third parliaments under Charles II. (England)? Urgent

Hallo, sorry for my bad English. In the article Parliaments_of_Charles_II are two third parliaments mentioned? Why? Was the first election not valid? Please answer not too complicated and please declare your sources. Thanks in advance. Please take a look Helpdesk and in Talk:List_of_Parliaments_of_England It is urgent because I need these informations for the german writing contest in Wikipedia. Thanks and greetings from Germany -- Jlorenz1 22:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC) P.S. My informations are that the election for the "Exclusion Bill Parliament" was in August 1679 not in 1680 - see Jonathan Scott: "Algernon Sidney" page 181, 182

Thanks. The 2 3rd Parliaments is an error. I have corrected this. The numbering is unofficial. The Convention Parliament of 1660 is often numbered the 1st Parliament of Charles II, so the others are often numbered differently.
In the 17th century there was often a long delay between the election and first meeting of a Parliament. The Exclusion Bill Parliament was summoned (ordered to be elected) by the King on 24 July 1679. The elections then took place in 1679 (I have altered the list as 1679 is more likely than 1680), but the Parliament first met on 21 October 1680. My source for the meeting date is 'The Office of Speaker' by Philip Laundry (Cassell & Company Ltd, 1964). I hope this answer helps you. --Gary J 10:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your fast answer Gary J and for telling your sources. Is it right that a "double return" to parliament means, that two agents shares a seat in the parliament? Thanks in advance --Jlorenz1 16:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)P.S. I forgot to mention, that for accessing to my link there is a google-account necessary , which is free. It is very helpfully, to look in older books online ;-) I found , that the Oxford Parliament was the fifth in the reign of Charles II. -- see here

A double return was where there was a doubt who had won the election. The Returning Officer returned more people than were due to be elected and the House of Commons decided who was validly elected or ordered a new election. This was done if there was a tie or if something went wrong with the election, in the opinion of the Returning Officer. An example was the Oxfordshire election of 1754. The source is 'The House of Commons 1754-1790' by Sir Lewis Namier and John Brooke (HMSO 1964). Enormous sums were spent (£20,000 by the Tories for example) and all manner of corruption took place on both sides. After the disputed election a double return was made of two Whigs and two Tories, for a two member constituency. Both sides petitioned the House of Commons. The House took six months to decide the case. The Whigs were seated, less due to the strength of the case than party support in the House of Commons. A contemporary, Sir William Meredith wrote "39 in 40 of the judges (the Members) knew nothing of the matter, and therefore voted as they liked best ... Nor, to this hour, can either side tell which had the majority of legal votes, nor any Member of Parliament who voted in that question give any other reason for his vote but as he stood inclined for the old or new interest of Oxfordshire".

I do not think the people involved in a double return shared the seat in Parliament, in the sense of being allowed to vote. Original sources online are valuable. The sixteenth and seventeenth century journals of the House of Commons (the minute books of the House) and diaries written by members (which can be more informative) are available on the British History Online website. Looking at the entry for 26 April 1660 (early in the Convention Parliament), I see that the members subject to double returns were ordered to withdraw (leave the place where the House met) until a decision was made on the disputed election, unless they had received an undisputed election for another constituency. It is possible to be elected for two or more places (which last happened in some Irish seats in 1918) and the member then has to choose which seat he wants to keep. --Gary J 12:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Great work

I just wanted to thank you for the excellent work you have put into the Portsmouth (UK Parliament constituency) article. I see that you're now working on Stamford. Keep up the good work! Warofdreams talk 16:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Party colours

I note you set up the colours for a lot of the smaller parties (Wikipedia talk:Index of United Kingdom political parties meta attributes#Party colours) - are you able to set up the meta data for the Epsom and Ewell Residents Association (the ruling body on that council)? I'm afraid I can't find the links to do it myself. Timrollpickering 17:37, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

  • I see the Epsom and Ewell Residents Association has already had a short 'meta name' and 'meta color' assigned, see Epsom and Ewell local elections. As Residents Associations and similar groups represent a restricted geographical area the use of one colour for them all should not present problems. If you need something more or an explanation of how you set up a new meta name and meta color, please let me know. --Gary J 15:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Monmouth constituencies

Hi Gary, can you cast your expert eye at this plea for help? Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Parliament constituencies#Monmouth_mess? Thanks! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Windsor etc

Hi Gary, just a quick note to congratulate you on your very thorough work on Windsor (UK Parliament constituency): it's very impressive to see such complete coverage of so many constituencies, thanks to your hard work.

BTW, I'm rather jealous of your list of references. I have only the 1918-1950 set of Craig's election results; so you have any suggestions on how I might find the others? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I accumulated most of Craig's books by buying them from his company or Macmillans when they were published. I am not sure how often they appear on the second hand market, but you might check sites like Amazon and other online book sellers. Larger reference libraries in the UK usually have some of the books. I rely on Uxbridge Library for various History of Parliament volumes, although Westminster Central Library has some others. Unfortunately I have not accumulated a spare few thousand pounds so I could buy my own copies! --Gary J 16:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speedy deletion of User:Gary J

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[edit] Hurrah for Brecon!

Glad to see that link go blue. Have you seen the Parliamentary History of the Principality of Wales on Google Books? Choess (talk) 22:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I have also done a Flint Boroughs article. Unfortunately I am not in a position to buy any books at the moment. I am doing the best I can with the books I have, plus notes I took from various editions of The History of Parliament I looked at in libraries. --Gary J (talk) 22:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Ah, didn't mean that. The book in question is full text, and fairly useful, IMO. Choess (talk) 23:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

--Gary J (talk) 15:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Constituencies in England, after June 27, 2007

I'm wondering if Official_names_of_United_Kingdom_Parliamentary_constituencies_in_England reflects the new and changed constituencies approved on June 27, 2007. Since I'm not UKer, I prefer not to wade into the issue. With some effort, the map this source points to lists the new constituencies, but renamed ones would require a different source.

"UK General Election political map: Results explanation & methodology", Daily Telegraph / Telegraph.co.uk, Telegraph Media Group Limited. Retrieved on 2008-01-25. 
Yellowdesk (talk) 15:51, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The official names article does not include the new constituencies which will take effect at the next UK general election. There is another article with a list of the constituencies in the next Parliament, which I will try to locate so I can provide a link.

After the next general election takes place I intend to update the official names article, but that seems to have been delayed until 2009 or 2010. --Gary J (talk) 15:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Do these new constituencies come into factual being upon the announcement of an election? -- Yellowdesk (talk) 16:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no. If you look at the statutory instruments making the changes, they are in force now, but until the dissolution of the present Parliament the new boundaries are not applied. By-elections in this Parliament use the boundaries from the existing seats. However the new boundaries are currently relevant to political parties (which normally base local party or association areas upon the Parliamentary constituencies) are already operating on the new boundaries and are selecting prospective candidates for them. --Gary J (talk) 16:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The link to the list of the new constituencies is Constituencies in the next United Kingdom general election. This article also includes links to the Welsh and English statutory instruments (the authority for the new boundaries not being used until the next general election is in the legislation authorising boundary changes to be made by statutory instrument). --Gary J (talk) 16:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your informative background. I wonder if something like your explanation above could be added by you to the appropriate articles, to dissuade editing that is not appropriate to the particular article in question. -- Yellowdesk (talk) 20:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Having actually looked at the official names article, for the first time in a while, I see there actually is a next column including the new constituencies. When the date of the next election is known it will be a simple matter to substitute the year for 'next'. I am sorry that my answer above about the article was incorrect. --Gary J (talk) 21:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like, for the informed editor, there's no hindrance to filling out that "next" column at this point. -- Yellowdesk (talk) 21:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Tireless Contributor Barnstar

The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
Awarded to Gary J for his unremitting labors in writing detailed articles on British Parliamentary constituencies. Choess (talk) 04:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)