Talk:Gary Gygax

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Contents

[edit] Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Assessment Drive

This article is narrowly a B-rating as it needs an infobox, but is otherwise comprehensive.

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 07:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC) This article causes brain cancer. Whoever wrote it needs to take a few writing classes. If I cared enough about the subject I would do it myself.

[edit] The Name

Gygax apparently means GIANT AXE, Gyg being norse for giant, and Ax being norse for axe.

Harald Potter —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.245.176.93 (talk) 21:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Legendary Adventure Online

Is Legendary Adventure Online dead? The article makes it sound like it is, but I found the website and it appears to be active. Can someone confirm if it was killed? If so/not, we should clarify the wording in the article. —Frecklefoot 15:58, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Inline extern links dispute

My esteemed colleague, Gracefool prefers inline extern links. That is, links to external sites within the article rather than using the links as cites or footnotes (See this edit). However, the Manual of Style discourages this practice and gives some advice on how to avoid their use. I'm not changing Gracefool's edit, I just wanted to note my position and his in case it comes up again. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:30, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Overkill?

Can someone let me know if the "Job Titles" section is overkill or relative information? --Kim Nevelsteen 23:30, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't know, I think it's mildly interesting. It could be formatted a whole lot better, however. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:43, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I am first going to get all the bio info up there and it cited before I worry too much about formatting. Thanks. --Kim Nevelsteen 15:20, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gygax and Tolkien

I started writing a summary of why Tolkien was an appropriate entry as an influence upon Gygax, but upon double checking I notice that the sentence in question says, "For the spell systems, Gygax would be inspired by...." Indeed, there is little to no evidence that D&D spell systems were influenced by Tolkien and a great deal of evidence that the spell systems were influenced by other fantasy writers.

That said, it may be worth noting that Tolkien pretty clearly influenced D&D in a number of ways. Most visably, the initial printing of D&D included both hobbits and ents. The hobbits and ents in D&D are extremely similar to Tolkien's version of them. Tolkien's work was at the time very popular among fantasy fans (which Gygax clearly is, given his other influences). Tolkien was clearly the first to define hobbits and may have coined the term (The Wikipedia entry on hobbit gives some good details). Given all of this, it's likely that Gygax was influenced by Tolkien, just not in the spell system area. (For those unfamiliar, D&D quickly renamed hobbits to halflings because the Tolkien estate holds the trademark to the word after Tolkien named the original book The Hobbit. Ents were renamed treants, but I have no idea why. There is, to my knowledge, no trademark and you cannot copyright a single word.)

Alan De Smet | Talk 21:50, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

There is a difference between having someone influence your work and entering creatures and tales into your work as a tribute to another author. --None-of-the-Above 07:28, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
One or two entries may be considered a mere 'tribute', but the thematic influence that the work of Tolkien has obviously had on the D&D world is far more then that. When an important portion of a work is such a 'tribute,' that is great influence indeed. 24.47.151.201 (talk) 06:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gore and Gygax reversion

Regarding this reversion by K.Nevelsteen of Grazon's change. Probably the right thing to do; it wasn't well sourced and was very confusing. That said, the "his appearence when, where, in what media?" is easy: the Futurama episode cited directly above. Both Gygax and Gore lent their voices to that episode. Gore is present at the end of the episode when Gygax starts a D&D game. He says something to the effect, "I'm a 13th level vice-president."

More questionable is Grazon's claim that "Gore's wife hates D&D." That's news to me, but some quick searching does suggest it might be true. this link claims to be an excerpt from her book in which she links D&D to satanism. The core idea: that there is an interesting coincidence between Al Gore acting with Gygax versus Tipper Gore disliking D&D may be worth researching. The sentence may belong is a better phrased and more strongly researched form. I'll see what I can dig up (but don't let me stop someone else from fixing it first).

I have a problem with the sentence because it is weakly formulated and not backed up. The claim itself is not a problem. --None-of-the-Above 07:28, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

But wouldn't "backing it up" constiute "original research" and also invalidate it for the purpose of the article? Just wondering... 77.177.187.50 16:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding June 2007 reversion

June 23rd, a user removed the comment about Gore appearing with Gygax on Futurama, saying Tipper Gore has never publicly criticized D&D.

Reason Magazine attributes the following quote to Tipper Gore: According to Mrs. Pat Pulling, founder of the organization Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons, the game has been linked to nearly fifty teenage suicides and homicides. The Escapist says she spoke out against D&D using Patricia Pulling as a source, but also suggests the book may have been ghost-written, and the comments made might not even be hers (speculation). Urban dot net contains an excerpt from the book, in which D&D is described as one of many occult fads (along with The Exorcist), and again mentions Patricia Pulling.

Point being, she has been publicly critical of D&D. That said, the criticism sounds rather weak. From the context in which it appears in the book, it sounds as though it's little more than a footnote among a number of items she was criticizing as being occult influences upon our society. While an interesting piece of trivia, I'm not convinced it's vital to the article (and we're supposed to be trimming trivia anyway, per WP:TRIVIA). -FeralDruid 05:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other Gygax's?

The Lost City of Gaxmoor (ISBN 1-931275-07-6) is listed as by by Ernie and Luke Gygax. I have a suspicion Ernie is one of his sons rather than another name for E Gary Gygax, but who is Luke? another son or grandson from Gygax first marriage? It would be good if someone had the info to adde this to the biography.

Do you want his entire family listed? Yes, Luke is his son. And there is an Ernest Jr. Indeed as well. --None-of-the-Above 09:19, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
List entire family? Well yes. Biographical information usually includes references to at least immediate family. I also think it is very noteable that 2 of his children have been involved in the RPG industry that E Gary Gygax basically started. -Waza 21:38, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
I have the info. I will see that I can add it in an appropriate place. Did you want to know about his grandchildren as well? =) He's got lots of grandkids. --None-of-the-Above 07:28, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
I think a brief listing of his kids, and possible which mother they go with would be appropriate, though I don't know about his grandkids. Perhaps the best place would be in the Biography area, under a new sub-section called Family...?--Azathar 17:49, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Any of Gary's family who has their own Wikipedia entry for their own actions deserves a link. Anyone who Gary is noteworty for influencing (or being influenced by) deserves a link. Thus, if a divorce was a big impact in Gary's life and decisions, that wife's name probably belongs. If his kids are in the industry, it seems likely that he influenced that decision and they deserve a brief mention. Beyond that I'd keep it general, "Gary Gygax has been married X times and sired Y children." Grandchildren is probably far enough from Gygax that in general I wouldn't bother any mention at all, unless one of the other cases above applies. By way of example, I don't want John F. Kennedy's entry to list his enter family tree, but a lot of Kennedy's before and after have been involved in politics and probably deserve brief mentions in John's entry. Alan De Smet | Talk 22:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Good luck figuring out Gary's ex-wife's name. When I asked him, "What is your ex-wife's name?" He simply replied, "My ex-wife". Usually his kids have authored something here or there, but I don't think it is mainstream yet. --None-of-the-Above 06:31, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

According to this article [1] he has daughters named Heidi, Cindy and Lisa and his ex-wife's name was Mary Jo -- DizietSma 03:24, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Children added. --None-of-the-Above 07:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Page says, "Gygax is the son of Martin Gygax and an American mother." Did his mom have a name? Is it that we just don't know it? This really oddly worded. CsikosLo 14:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 15:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

This article [2] has a large amount of personal info about him and his family. Ron Bes (talk) 14:43, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] On linking "TSR" name variations

Just a heads up for anyone links variations on the name TSR: The Wikipedia page is TSR, Inc.. That page includes a very complete discussion of previous names (notably "Tactical Studies Rules" and "TSR Hobbies, Inc"), so linking the previous names is unnecessary. I rewrote the ones I found to link directly to TSR, Inc. while keeping the text of the name. Alan De Smet | Talk 15:27, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gary's "a million and a half in debt" quote

User:131.216.163.92 changed "a million and a half in debt" to "$15 million". While I think the correct number if $15M, the text in question is part of a quotation directly from Gygax's mouth at [3], thus it shouldn't be changed. Given that it was transcribed as "a million and a half" and not "1.5 million" (a much more plausible typo), I believe that the transcription was accurate. Alan De Smet | Talk 20:46, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

  • it is NOT part of the original quote. It is garbage introduced by a previous edit. I checked the reference that *I* submitted to double check. So there shouldn't be a 15 or 1.5 unless there is a source along with it. --None-of-the-Above 19:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced paragraph

I am removing the following paragraph because it is completely unsourced. If it can be sourced, then I would be glad to accept it as an edit. It was changed on revision [4] --None-of-the-Above 19:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

It was through the IFW that Gygax met Don and Julie Lowry, who owned and operated a mail-order business selling products of interest to wargamers and other military hobbyists. The Lowrys had booths to sell products at some of the early GenCons. They also had their own press with which they printed their catalogs, and they took over Panzerfaust, a wargaming magazine, from Don Greenwood when the latter went to work for Avalon Hill. Gygax was the "miniatures editor" for Panzerfaust (later renamed Campaign) and convinced them to publish rulebooks for miniatures gaming in various epocs, beginning with Chainmail in 1971. This line carried the name Guidon Games. Gygax also designed two board games for Guidon Games: Dunkirk and Alexander the Great; the rights to the latter were later bought by Avalon Hill. In 1973 Gygax refered the designer of the board game Dungeon to Don Lowry, then in Maine, who admired the game but knew that he did not have the resources to do it justice. Gygax mentioned, in a phone discussion of Dungeon, that he also had a game with a similar flavor, called Dungeons & Dragons, which would not involve the production costs of Dungeon, but which would require one "player" to design "dungeons" that the other players could send their characters through, while the designer of the dungeon revealed information only as the players' characters would access it. Based on this description, Lowry decided that there would be little market for such a game, as it required too much work on the part of the dungeon designers, while the other players would have all the fun.

[edit] Is Gary a Jehovah's Witness?

A recent edit added Gary to Category:Jehovah's Witnesses people. 1. Is it true? I can find one citation: [5] which claims "The truth is that the co-authors of the original D&D game were Gary Gygax and David Arneson, who are Jehovah's Witness and Born-Again Christian, respectively." I'd be happier if I could find at least one more citation. 2. Is it relevant? As far as I know Gary has not made this a significant part of his public life. I'd expect the category to be people who were major parts of the faith or had made it a significant part of their public life. (Otherwise, for example, I'd expect Category:Christian people to be a list thousands of entries long.) 3. Why isn't in the article proper? If it is true and relevant, it should probably be in the biography proper ("Gary Gygax is a Jehovah's Witness."), not hidden in the category listings at the bottom. Alan De Smet | Talk 23:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC) Gary Gygax was indeed a Jehovah's witness. It came up in conversations with me on a few occasions when we played wargames together at his house in Lake Geneva, or mine, in Chicago.^^^^ (RAC)

I am doubtful of this inclusion as well.--Esprit15d 14:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Given that no one spoke up in defense of the inclusion, I've pulled it for the reasons above. If anyone disagrees, please let us know what your reasoning is. Alan De Smet | Talk 03:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Not that this is citeable (sp?), he is a Jehovah's Witness, at least that is what he told me (and some others)at a Con in Portsmouth, NH, where I met him a few years back, and was able to play in a game he was DM'ing. I was a bit surprised about it, but he doesn't appear to be strict about it.--Azathar 15:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Being a member of Gary's talk list, there was an interesting discussion of religion a while back. I'm not exactly sure if Gary's a formal member of any Watchtower society, and he did not specifically identify himself as a member of that faith, but he does follow a lot of the tenants of their beliefs. For instance, he believes in Annihilationism instead of Hell, uses Jehovah as the term to describe "God the Father", is not a Trinitarian, etc. If I remember correctly, he had mentioned as a youngster being raised as a Seventh-day Adventist, although I could be mistaken (my e-mail archives are a bit on the fritz right now). There was an interesting debate between him and Christopher Spiller, a devout Catholic, on several of these subjects. JRT 01:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non Gaming Information

I'd be interested in seeing some non gaming info on Gary, such as did he go to college, if so, where, when and what did he study? What did he do professionally before writing games? Pdarley 21:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Gygax is the creator of many fantastic personages and beings..."

I'm deleting the following text: "Gygax is the creator of many fantastic personages and beings who now appear outside of the D&D game such as drow (as they exist in fantsy literature and art), gnolls, Mordenkainen, Eclavdra, Grazz't, among others." Individually I don't think the examples are valid. Dark elves existed in fantasy literature pre-D&D; all Gygax did was put his own spin on them. Perhaps his spin was significantly influenced later works, but if that's the case you'll need to provide a citation. The same goes for gnolls, the pieces (name and imagry) predate Gygax. If his particular take has had an impact, we'll need citations. As for the other three, those are more clearly original works. However, what significant impact have they had outside of D&D? Again, citations are needed. — Alan De Smet | Talk 19:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I've been thinking on this for a few hours, how Gygax influenced aspects of the world. It could be easily said that he started modern gaming; Chainmail & D&D are in the background of every role playing game; some of the first Computer games were D&D based, which influenced not only all following computer & video games, but also the demand for personal computers in the first place. I've lost track of how many people I know got involved in programming due to D&D. Some of the very earliest traffic on arpanet, which evolved into the internet, was Fantasy Role Playing and adventure gaming. How many people signed up for AOL or Compuserve to play online RPG's obviously based on D&D? how much did that effect the development of both the internet and modern MMORPG's? AND, while Fantasy art was around before Gary, How much would there have been without the D&D spawned books, magazines, games, movies, etc? Throw that in with his influence on personal Computers & the Internet, and you have a argument that Mr. Gygax is directly responsible for Renderosity. Regardless, I know that I could cite Mr. Gygax as the reason I have 3 wonderful kids; I met their mom in a Gaming store.Paganize (talk) 08:10, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who created D&D

I wonder if anybody is researching the controversy surrounding Gygax's creation of Chainmail and D&D and such. I remember when the games were first coming out (yes, I'm old) it was like a Paparazzi's dream, with all the gaming mags taking sides, people involved shouting that Gygax stole most of his ideas, that he originated everything, etc. that kind of thing. Would add to the information on that period of his life.Chicken McFuggits (talk) 12:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not aware of anyone actively researching this. However, if you know of magazines, or even better have access to some, such research would be very welcome, especially over at Dungeons & Dragons. — Alan De Smet | Talk 23:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll look around. Unfortunately, I went to Germany in '83 and lost touch with all my old gaming buddies. I'll see what I can't find.Chicken McFuggits (talk) 17:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Biography guidelines

Aren't the full names and exact birthdays of Gygax's grandchildren both unnecessary and also outside of the Wikipedia guidelines for biographies of living persons? User:PurpleChez 13 Sept 07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.154.98.188 (talk) 00:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Fixed. (For anyone else reading, the guidelines in question are regarding the privacy of names birthdays.) — Alan De Smet | Talk 04:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TOC?

Why doesn't this page have a table of contents? I don't see a tag suppressing it. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 15:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The TOC was appearing within the WPBiography assessment box, because Talk:Gary Gygax/Comments is transcluded there and includes a header. I used the __TOC__ magic word to move it below the templates so it is now visible. Powers T 21:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Big THANKS

Big thanks to Frecklefoot and Alan De Smet for keeping a watchful eye on this article through all the vandalism! --None-of-the-Above 12:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup tag

Interesting article, but it needs serious copyediting and cleanup. Some of the assertions made in the article are unreferenced, the use of tense is inappropriate in several places, and passive voice is used in several places where active voice would be better. I started copyediting the article myself today, but I don't have time to finish it. Rray 16:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:D&d original.jpg

Image:D&d original.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. --Rindis (talk) 22:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted Gygax photo

Can someone explain why the image that Gary asked to be posted on his article (OF HIMSELF, not the D&D one above) and was personally given for this purpose was deleted? --None-of-the-Above (talk) 18:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I assume you're talking about Image:GaryGygax2.jpg. You can see the summary of the deletion in the file's log. The log claims it was deleted because it was "non-commercial only (CSD I3)". CSD I3 refers to Criteria for speedy deletion: Images and media: '3. Improper license'. CSD I3 forbids '[i]mages licensed as 'for non-commercial use only', 'non-derivative use' or 'used with permission' ... except where they have been shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content." And indeed, from your initial upload message, it looks like the only license we had was "I give permission for its use" from Gygax. (It's possible there was more; the upload summary is frequently truncated.) Unfortunately that isn't clear enough. Did his permission include derivative or commercial use? We can't know. Wikipedia's goal is that it be as free as possible for any use. An image on Wikipedia should be so free that someone can print a physical encyclopedia and charge for it, or someone could take an image from an article for news reporting, or even take an image, scrawl childish things on it, and post it on their geocities page. "I give permission for its use" implies, "for Wikipedia only", which is a problem. Now, CSD I3 does note that there is an exception, the non-free content policy. The policy requires that, among other things, that there is "no free equivalent", either now, nor realistically possible. A free equivalent is available, so it fails that test. If we can confirm that the photograph is licensed under a suitably free license that allows basically any reuse, ideally a Wikipedia accepted license, it should be re-added. If that is the case, I'd be happy to help you get it undeleted (I believe it is possible, but I'm not an admin), or ensure that the licensing is clear enough to avoid having it deleted in the future. — Alan De Smet | Talk 22:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Hey Alan. I haven't kept up with wiki law for more than a year now. A lot of submissions that I have done have been removed due to lack of following official guidelines. With all due respect, I would like to get Gary's picture that he intended back on the article. (Image:GaryGygax2.JPG) I asked him for a photo specifically for wikipedia with all rights and guidelines included. He gave me the photo specifically for wikipedia, so all the policy changing shouldn't matter. Now to prove it... here is an excerpt from the original mail. I think it should be sufficient...
Greetings Kim!

I didn't find anything erroneous in the Wicklopedia treatment, although I am the sole authorof the D&D game,
Dave Arneson being created as co-creator of the concept. Tis fact is plainly set forth in Different Worlds #3, 
in which magazine Mr. Arneson states clearly that he did not write one world of the D&D game.

Tat aside, I believe the attached long biography of my game-related activities might be of interest to you.

A jpg photo is also attached, and I give permission for its use.

Cheers,
Gary

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is 
in heaven." Matthew 5:16 

----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim NEVELSTEEN"

If you didn't know there is an article about you in Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygax
I would like to add a picture of you to the article, but I only
have two pictures of you which were photoshop'ed to make you look
like a angel and a devil. These won't do for Wikipedia since it
is an encyclopedia and actuality counts.
Maybe you can volunteer a photo. You will have to give permission
to use the picture under the public domain or Gnu free document license
in order for me to post it on the wiki site.

--None-of-the-Above (talk) 19:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it is not just enough to do that. For starters, he must have chosen, explicitly, a license. And then, he should have sent a declaration of consent similar to the declaration of consent for all enquiries at Wikimedia Commons. More information can be found at Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission. Again in short: A license must have been explicitly chosen, and a declaration should have been sent. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 20:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Sadly, ReyBrujo is right; what you got isn't up to snuff; we need an explicit statement of which license he was willing to release it under. It's a shame, since I'm guessing Gygax would have been willing, but we can't know. Without that, we're out of luck. (I'm pretty sure the declaration of consent is ideal, but not strictly required.) Me, I've largely given up on requesting copyright permissions from other people, since the Wikipedia standards are so high. — Alan De Smet | Talk 20:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The declaration is not needed, but if used it is definitive. It is surprising the amount of images uploaded at Commons with authorizations that read "Yes, feel free to use the image in Wikipedia" and nothing more. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 22:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, right. A man like Gary that answers 300 mails a day is REALLY going to go through the trouble of all that copyright info. Largely why I stopped editting. Too much red tape. Give me a break. Real shame.

[edit] Death

It's been posted on the Troll Lord Games site that EGG has died in his home. http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4373&mforum=trolllordgames

Let's wait for some confirmation on this, but an update may be in order. Sad news. --DestroyYouAlot (talk) 16:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it's confirmed - Jolly Blackburn got an email from a mutual friend.

http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36484

RIP, Gary. --DestroyYouAlot (talk) 17:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

We're trusting a "troll" site to be a reliable source on this news? What seems wrong with this picture? ;-) Anyway, I mean no disrespect to Mr. Gygax -- if he really did die, R.I.P. Dr. Cash (talk) 18:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Troll Lords is the name of a gaming company, jackass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.19.246 (talk) 18:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
This has been confirmed by the folks at Kenzer & Co Games, through a mutual family friend. SirFozzie (talk) 18:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

No news here: http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/news/index.html I would remain skeptical for now.

I would definitely prefer the CNN ref be used for this article rather than the local paper currently cited.--BizMgr (talk) 03:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

How about this then?--Boffob (talk) 18:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Confirmed. Lead story on Yahoo. Every single player of WOW and every other game that derives from the D&D system ought to contribute to the funeral expenses. 71.9.8.150 (talk) 19:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Did the guy die broke or something? --70.109.223.188 (talk) 21:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
very sad news indeed l33tb0b (talk) 19:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
RIP. Bstone (talk) 20:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Some mainstream media reports:

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/03/04/obit.gygax.ap/
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/03/04/national/a103425S84.DTL

David Reiss (talk) 22:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I would definitely prefer the CNN ref be used for this article rather than the local paper currently cited.--BizMgr (talk) 03:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The local news outlet was used when it was essentially the only one reporting it (beyond discussion forums).--Boffob (talk) 15:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Crap. He could have at least rolled a decent saving throw. 67.160.130.160 (talk) 16:20, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The game-oriented vandalism is cute to have in the history. Thankfully, responsible editors removed it each time in short order. For entertainment, browse the article history since his death. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 17:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
We'll miss you. Thanks for everything --Technotaoist (talk) 05:41, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
May he rest in peace. --Mithos64 (talk) 23:09, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Just... CRAP, damn it. He will be missed! --None-of-the-Above (talk) 18:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lead section

Can the last paragraph be moved down in the article. We don't need to know who first rported his death, that seems pretty irrelevant and not worthy of the lead. Maybe in a few days? Thanks, --70.109.223.188 (talk) 21:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed; now that it has been confirmed by AP, there's no need to refer to who reported it when. Removed. Tempshill (talk) 21:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How many kids?

From the article: "As of 2005, he was father to six children and grandfather to seven. His first five children are from his first marriage to Mary Jo Gygax, and the last two were via his second marriage.[7]." The math doesn't add up. DanielZimmerman (talk) 21:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Aw crud - I made grammatical changes throughout the page earlier today and obviously I just can't count. The original text indicated that five children were from the first marriage, and the last child from the second marriage. Gypsyhick (talk) 00:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

How do you pronounce Gygax? - Montréalais (talk) 04:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I've always heard it as "guy-gacks".--Bedford 04:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Same here in relation to Gary, but the footballer (soccer player to you Yanks) apparently pronounces it "Geek wax".212.135.238.117 (talk) 09:27, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Here is Gygax saying his own name at 00:20: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxo9gFBHJsE Universalcosmos (talk) 12:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GenCon is NOT the wrold's largest hobby game convention by any means

Spiel at Essen is 10+ times larger chrisboote (talk) 11:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] honors

i notice "order of the stick" comic has been included into the section as honoring Mr Gygax, should anything be included about the way WotC honored/is honoring him via their D&D page http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/gygax.jpg which has replaced their standard entry page http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome ? shadzar-talk 17:40, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tribute mentions

I have seen a lot of high profile tributes or mentions about him and his death. Would those, properly sourced of course, be something appropriate? Examples that I have seen are NPR, Penny Arcade (webcomic) and The Colbert Report. I am sure that others will come up soon, but did not know if this would be right for Wikipedia to collect the references in some form of list. Slavlin (talk) 05:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Under "awards" it probably should be mentioned that, as of today, Blizzard Entertainment has dedicated the upcoming Patch 2.4 of "World of Warcraft" to Gygax' memory. Please see the mmo-champion.com website which has the forthcoming patch notes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.56.202 (talk) 15:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd honestly like to see the Troll Lord Games thread linked somehow - not because it's where the death was first reported, but because it's become somewhat of a "Gary guest book". They opened the thread to guest comments once they realize that the blogosphere was linking to it, and it's currently up to 47 pages of well-wishers and remembrances, most from people who don't game anymore but just needed somewhere to share their memories. Perhaps a "Reactions to Gygax's Death" section would be possible? --DestroyYouAlot (talk) 16:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is another from xkcd: http://xkcd.com/393/
--Stéphane Charette (talk) 16:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Geoffhanna (talk) 20:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC) could we consider creating a tribute section and moving all of the references there instead of having them both in the Death section and also in the Honors section? p.s. I added the Other Appearances header and paragraph but didn't notice that I had done so without first logging in.

[edit] Set up because he could manage?

The article currently quotes an interview where Gary talks about why he was pressured to leave TSR:

I was pretty much boxed out of the running of the company because the two guys, who between them had a controlling interest, thought they could run the company better than I could. I was set up because I could manage. In 1982 nobody on the West Coast would deal with TSR, but they had me start a new corporation called "Dungeons and Dragons Entertainment." It took a long time and a lot of hard work to get to be recognized as someone who was for real and not just a civilian, shall we say, in entertainment.

I'm currently working on a translation of this article for another language wikipedia, and I would like to include a version of this quote. But I can't for the life of me figure out what he means by "I was set up because I could manage."

  • "Set up" could mean "put in a certain (positive) position" or "ambushed; framed; led into a trap."
  • "Manage" could mean "run a company" or "deal with (some bad thing)."

So I can think of about half a dozen possible meanings for this sentence. Anyone have any idea what Gygax actually meant!? --Iustinus (talk) 17:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

This is how I read Gary's statement. Gary stated he was capable in managing TSR, more so than the other two. As such, the two guys had no legitimate business-related excuse to oust Gary from a controlling position. They arrranged him to go to the West Coast to get him out of the company by having him start a new corporation, allowing them to do whatever they want. Jappalang (talk) 08:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
That's a very good theory, and so far you're the only one to suggest anything (either here, or among those I consulted privately.) Any other takers? I suppose I can assume this interpretation is correct unless I hear something better. --Iustinus (talk) 02:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

When I was instructed by the Blumes to move to the West Coast and head up TSR Entertainment, the first thing I noted out there was a distinct dislike of TSR, this from earlier contact with the Blumes, as far as I could ascertain. Thus I immediately requested the BoD for a name change, and I got my way without any real fight. That is likely due to the fact that the Blumes considered the operation a good way to keep me out of their hair, and the name I asked for was a logical one considering the recognition factor.

—Gary Gygax

http://www.thekyngdoms.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37

i think this is what it is refering to or something similar. hopefully i did this quote thing correctly and doesnt mess up this page... shadzar-talk 01:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quote unsourced

Hello. Im looking for sourcing this (famous) quote on wikiquote:

A DM only rolls the dice because of the noise they make.

Any suggestions? Thx. — STAR TREK Man [Space, the final frontier...] 10:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

No help, no joy. :-( Could it be in one of the AD&D book preface or in a D&D magazine? Please, help. — STAR TREK Man [Space, the final frontier...] 11:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
According to this discussion, its origin could be in 1984, in the Wisconsin state court system (it was legally decided that Dave Arneson was the father of FRPs). Help!? — STAR TREK Man [Space, the final frontier...] 15:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, Wikipedia isn't really the place for such a discussion. "Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia. .... Also, bear in mind that talk pages exist for the purpose of discussing how to improve articles; they are not mere general discussion pages about the subject of the article, nor are they a helpdesk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance. If you wish to ask a specific question on a topic, Wikipedia has a Reference Desk, and questions should be asked there rather than on talk pages." (link to the reference desk.) You might get lucky and some kind Wikipedian who happens to know might wander by and answer here, but it's far more likely to simply be ignored. You might want to check out Wikiquote's entry for Gygax, the quote is listed there as "unsourced", and it's talk page would be a good place to help find the source. — Alan De Smet | Talk 04:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Number of children

The article currently reads:

As of 2005, he was father to six children and grandfather to seven. His first five children are from his first marriage to Mary Jo Gygax, and the last child is from his second marriage.

But two plus five does not equal six, so clearly one of these figures is incorrect. The article cites the Long Biography on this point, but I don't have access to that document. Can someone who does please straighten this out? Thanks! Iustinus (talk) 02:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Umm... but "As of 2005, he was father to six children and grandfather to seven. His first five children are from his first marriage to Mary Jo Gygax, and the last child is from his second marriage." Five plus one (last) equals six. Jappalang (talk) 05:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
D'oh! You're right! I was working from an earlier version of the text, and when I came here to ask about it, I somehow didn't notice this had already been dealt with. How stupid of me, sorry. --Iustinus (talk) 21:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The LONG Bio literally reads...
Children:
Alexander Hugh Hamilton Gygax born 2 October 1986
Lucion Paul Gygax* born 7 November 1970
Cindy Lee Gygax (Toe)* born 16 December 1966
Heidi Jo Gygax* born 20 October 1963
Mary Elise Gygax (Perrino*) born 1 August 1961
Ernest G. Gygax, Jr.* born 2 September 1959
*children of previous marriage

Grandchildren:          
Joseph Perrino
Jonathan Perrino
Michael Gygax
Ashley Gygax
Alana Toe
Mason Toe

--None-of-the-Above (talk) 18:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gaming career

Blume later partnered with Gygax and Kaye in the TSR enterprise. — is this really information about Gary's gaming career? while informative this sentence seems to focus more on Brian Blume than Gary. maybe its just the wording that sounds a bit off or the context? shadzar-talk 20:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A source

Hello. Here is a source to find facts about Gary. It is in french sorry, but I could have an english version since I asked a copy to the admin of the website. In waiting I could help translate some sentences. Enjoy. — STAR TREK Man [Space, the final frontier...] 11:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dragon Magazine publisher

not sure how to source this as requested on the page itself but here is what i got. Dragon Magazine archive in its articles' credits section listed E. Gary Gygax as the publisher for the following issues: (varying from page numbers 3-5)

  • 13-24,26-30 with a publishers statement to the effect of THE DRAGON is published monthly by TSR Periodicals, a division of TSR Hobbies, Inc., P.O. Box 110, Lake Geneva, WI 53147
  • 31-38 with a block with the credits saying similar to the above framed with the credits
  • 39-48 with a new publishing statement THE DRAGON is published monthly by Dragon Publishing, a division of TSR Hobbies Inc.

no idea where the credits for issue 25 is i couldnt find them in the PDFs. Jake Jaquet took over publisher title in the credits with issue 49. no publisher was listed for issues 1,3-12, and no credits could i find for issue 2 but all contained a publisher statement the same/similar as issues 13-38.

not sure how this can help the statement of publisher status for Dragon Magazine as specified in the article, or even how to add it, but there are the facts from the CDROM archives of the magazine that support the claim of Mr Gygax being the credited as the publisher. shadzar-talk 03:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll try to break out my own copy of the Dragon CDs soon and double check this, but I'm not clear what you're saying. "THE DRAGON is published monthly by TSR Periodicals, a division of TSR Hobbies, Inc...." would seem to be a clear statement that TSR as a company was the publisher, not Gygax as an individual. That's exactly why I asked about the citation. — Alan De Smet | Talk 23:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
it also lists specific persons who made the magazines. Editor, Artist, Publisher for many issues in addition to the "publishers statement" as its called in the early issues. shadzar-talk 23:15, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Color me surprised. I'm not really sure what it means for him to be the publisher, but it's right there in black and white. I took a stab at adding a citation. I really don't want to cite every single issue, so I tried for a crude single entry. I also checked out issues 25 and couldn't find the matching entry either, so there is a gap. I'm guessing the credits just got accidentally left out, but there isn't anything we can do about it. — Alan De Smet | Talk 02:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey, guys. I was the person who first noticed this in my CD ROM collection of Dragon as well. I've been doing some real world things I didn't notice the little hornets nest I stirred up over adding the publishers credit. Anyway, I just dug through my pdf's of Dragon again to see what I could find there. I found the following in issue #12. "Statement of Ownership, Management and Circulation". It appears to be a legal notice of some kind. The form does list Gygax by name as the publisher. I looked through other issues and found some similar statements. Those other ones I found it in were issues #55, #67 and #80. So, it looks like something they were supposed to print every year. Oddly, only the notice in issue #12 is clear, the others seem to be somewhat blurred, almost on-purpose. Not sure why, as one can make out the wording of them -- if we some difficulty. I couldn't find other references to this notice, but I didn't look through every page of every issue either. I may just have been listed elsewhere in the magazine. David Reiss (talk) 05:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Delete Coilhouse obituary

What is the value of "Remembering Gary Gygax by Wayne Chambliss - Coilhouse" in the obituary list. The Times and AP links are noteworthy because it's major coverage. The wkbt link is more marginal, but at least is local. Is there any reason to keep the Coilhouse link? — Alan De Smet | Talk 23:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Too short intro?

User:Thumperward believes the intro is too short. I disagree. The three most notable things about Gygax are that his co-created D&D, co-founded TSR, and considered a father of RPGs. Those three things so overshadow his other work that I don't seem anything else worth mentioning. We might cram in that he's no longer associated with D&D or TSR/WotC, but that's not much an addition. Stuffing a bunch of far less critical information into the intro just because the rest of the article is long doesn't really seem like an improvement. Perhaps I'm overlooking some obvious additions. Unless there is some further disagreement, I'm prone to remove the tooshort template at the top. — Alan De Smet | Talk 18:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think there should be roughly one paragraph every 25kb of text. Therefore, yes, I think it is a very short. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
While that might be a good rule of thumb, it should be balanced against the details of the specific situation. In this case: okay, maybe we should reconsider the intro to see if there are things missing. I've done so, and I find it a very effective summary. What sorts of things do you think we're omitting from the intro? — Alan De Smet | Talk 22:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
The intro perfectly summarises the article, and doesn't need to be any longer. The ratio of the length of the intro to the length of the article is irrelevant. Akiyama (talk) 09:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't "perfectly summarise" it. Devoting one whole sentence to the man's career in RPGs is inadequate for an article of this length. It doesn't mention IFW, his work after TSR, his death, or give any details on his prestige in the community other than noting that he is considered a father to the industry. At some point the intro will have to get longer if this article is to reach GA status, because it's a simple MoS issue which almost any reviewer would pick up.
Despite their name, introductions in Wikipedia are not meant merely to provide a starting point for the reader. They're meant to provide reasonable summaries, such that one could be expected to have a reasonable understanding of the subject just by reading the intro. Here, if the reader doesn't happen to be familiar with D&D, they've no real frame of reference to ascertain the man's importance. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I think we should also add a sentence about his later interaction with the game, along the lines "Although not involved with the core Dungeons & Dragons material, he influenced different forms of entertainment from video games to movies." And a line about what he was doing until his death, like "Until his death, he was working for Troll Lord Games creating a number of original games...".
The leading should give as much information in as little room as possible, but without leaving the reader with the "Gary Gygax was the father of roleplaying" and forcing him to read the article about him to know where he got his influence and what he did after D&D. The Napoleon leading doesn't say he was a brilliant strategist only, or the leading in the Superman article doesn't just say he is the most popular comic character.
Interesting that this article contradicts with the main Dungeons & Dragons (where it says the game was created in 1974). -- ReyBrujo (talk) 20:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Where's the contradiction? Both articles say that D&D was first published in 1974. TSR was founded in 1973, but there is a comma in that sentence that has the statement about both TSR and D&D. (Of course, maybe I've overlooked some other place in one or both of the articles.) Maybe that sentence in the lead should be rewritten as I can see where the confusion can arise. --Craw-daddy | T | 21:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, you are right. It is just that I am used to a sorted list of achievements, not first something from 1974 and then something from 1973. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 04:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I want to add the statement ... Gygax is generally acknowledged as one of the fathers of the tabletop role-playing game [1] and remained an icon in the role-playing community. ..., but I think it sounds kinda cheezy. I would like to justify his multiple appearances in media.--None-of-the-Above (talk) 10:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I see the tag has just been stripped without discussion; I've left a note on the admin's talk page. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:45, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Links to Sources Outside Wikipedia

I've noticed that there are a number of links in the article to sources that are not Wikipedia articles. In particular, the Awards and Honors section has a number of direct links to outside articles. I propose that all of those references be changed into footnoted references so that there is consistency in the section. SailorAlphaCentauri (talk) 20:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. And probably moving it to the bottom. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Off topic a little, but I don't feel like making another section. I found another really nice source you guys can use... here-> [6]