Talk:Ganguro
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[edit] Pertaining to blackface
Please note: This discussion is the result of a paragraph discussing blackface which now survives only as a link in the etymology section on the main page. Dekimasu 14:19, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
- You are right [that] American history has no relationship to Ganguro at all.I can say this because I am Japanese.Non of those girls(and pretty much of nation) knows about American history.And yes, each word of Ganguro can be translated to Black and face,but it has no connection to that subject of history.Junior wh 02:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Personally I agree with you, and you are certainly right that they are not girls who know about American history. However, the Japanese Wikipedia clearly states, "「ガンガン黒い」の略称が語源とされている（顔黒から来ているという説もある）。" Your related comment that it is based on anime characters is relevant in that those types of Japanese manga/anime characters are often considered to be racist portrayals of black people in America. Dekimasu 17:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- I wonder if you clearly know meaning of this."「ガンガン黒い」の略称が語源とされている（顔黒から来ているという説もある）。" It still have no ralationship with American history's "Black face" at all. It says, origin of word Ganguro came may came from 「ガンガン黒い」or「顔黒」.「ガンガン(gangan)」means "very" and 「黒い」means "black".「顔黒」are made of charactor "face" and "black",and this may be the reason confused some people,but its not word to discribe American history's "Black face".Since Ganguro in Japanese are known in Katakana,the characters which has no meaning in each character,Japanese version of wiki only discribed origin may came from those pair of Kanji. And about racist stuff,I really do not know what you are talking about. They are not about my opinion,that's the way it is. Animation charactor with brown skin who looks like African people became very popular,and some Japanese girls thought it is new standard of beauty or something and tried to imitate them. I don't think they are being disrespectful to them either.Junior wh 21:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
- Like I said, I agree with you. I don't think we need to have this conversation. I thought you were saying (as other users have on this page) that those kanji can't be used for ganguro, not that blackface wasn't involved. "Racist" anime characters are not relevant to this article from the perspective of the Japanese girls themselves, but if the style is based on characters who are considered racist by many people, that may be worth pointing out. Dekimasu 22:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
- I wonder if you clearly know meaning of this."「ガンガン黒い」の略称が語源とされている（顔黒から来ているという説もある）。" It still have no ralationship with American history's "Black face" at all. It says, origin of word Ganguro came may came from 「ガンガン黒い」or「顔黒」.「ガンガン(gangan)」means "very" and 「黒い」means "black".「顔黒」are made of charactor "face" and "black",and this may be the reason confused some people,but its not word to discribe American history's "Black face".Since Ganguro in Japanese are known in Katakana,the characters which has no meaning in each character,Japanese version of wiki only discribed origin may came from those pair of Kanji. And about racist stuff,I really do not know what you are talking about. They are not about my opinion,that's the way it is. Animation charactor with brown skin who looks like African people became very popular,and some Japanese girls thought it is new standard of beauty or something and tried to imitate them. I don't think they are being disrespectful to them either.Junior wh 21:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
- Personally I agree with you, and you are certainly right that they are not girls who know about American history. However, the Japanese Wikipedia clearly states, "「ガンガン黒い」の略称が語源とされている（顔黒から来ているという説もある）。" Your related comment that it is based on anime characters is relevant in that those types of Japanese manga/anime characters are often considered to be racist portrayals of black people in America. Dekimasu 17:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
It is my understanding that ganguro got their look from an attempt to mimic the Hawaiian surfer culture, thus the deep tans and sun washed hair color, not to mention all the flowers and other highlights. I'd never heard anyone make the argument that the look was inspired by an animation character, and frankly it doesn't add up.
[edit] Userbox
I have removed the "Japanese subcultures" infobox for the second time in a few months, so I will give my reasoning here. The same reasoning could just as easily be applied to the other articles in the infobox, although I am not active in editing any of them.
- Since subcultures are by their very nature independent of one another, adding the names of other Japanese subcultures to the ganguro article does not add any useful information about ganguro to the article.
- The article is already categorized as a Japanese subculture, so people can already find the other subcultures by clicking the link at the bottom.
- This type of box, as a template, usually goes at the bottom of the page (the only exceptions I can think of are articles related to religion, which often have links down the side of the page written in small, inobtrusive text).
Dekimasu 03:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- I believe the infoboxes are quite useful indeed, and regret you deleted it. The categorizing at the bottom does have the same information in fact, but the presentation in the box makes it much clearer to present the panoply of "subcultures". I intend to restore the infobox (which should also be recoded in proper infobox and not userbox code), but will leave the matter to rest for a few days just now. LHOON 06:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- I still believe my first point is very relevant; there is no connection (in prevalence, prominence, or ideology) between a "Gothic Lolita" and a ganguro girl. I don't think I would have reacted as negatively to the infobox if it was at the bottom of the page. For it to be on the upper right, I think it needs to add informational value to the article. Take Junichiro Koizumi, for example: information on the man in the upper right, and a template list of prime ministers of Japan at the bottom. Dekimasu 17:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- I will change the boxes to bottom boxes if I have time the next few days. LHOON 22:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- I have to say that I found that Infobox very good placed. I think that the other 'subcultures' definitely do have something to do with each other because they are all about clothes. I found "Yamanba" after "Ganguro"-style and Ganguro after searching for Shibuya-girls due to a faszination of them crazy clothing styles. For this theme-connection, and the fact that Ganguro-, Yamanba-, Lolita- and other styles exist very close to each other in the same district of Tokyo I think it is absolutely senseful to let this infobox be where it was.Golem86girmanii 14:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
- I respect your opinion, but the fact that people have "fascinations" with these things is all the more reason to make sure the articles contain appropriate information, and at the moment many do not. I don't mean to sound uppity, but as they stand these articles read like misleading pieces written by fascinated foreigners.... Please realize that more than half of these articles do not even have counterparts on the Japanese Wikipedia. At any rate, I stated that I wouldn't object to the infobox if it was at the bottom of the article, like this type of infobox usually is. Dekimasu 17:29, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with putting it in the bottom part, but *PLEASE* make it a *template*, and not just something you copy-paste into all related articles... —Nightstallion (?) 23:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
- I changed the template to a bottom box, but I still dispute the inclusion of some of the links. Dekimasu 02:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with putting it in the bottom part, but *PLEASE* make it a *template*, and not just something you copy-paste into all related articles... —Nightstallion (?) 23:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
- I respect your opinion, but the fact that people have "fascinations" with these things is all the more reason to make sure the articles contain appropriate information, and at the moment many do not. I don't mean to sound uppity, but as they stand these articles read like misleading pieces written by fascinated foreigners.... Please realize that more than half of these articles do not even have counterparts on the Japanese Wikipedia. At any rate, I stated that I wouldn't object to the infobox if it was at the bottom of the article, like this type of infobox usually is. Dekimasu 17:29, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
- I have to say that I found that Infobox very good placed. I think that the other 'subcultures' definitely do have something to do with each other because they are all about clothes. I found "Yamanba" after "Ganguro"-style and Ganguro after searching for Shibuya-girls due to a faszination of them crazy clothing styles. For this theme-connection, and the fact that Ganguro-, Yamanba-, Lolita- and other styles exist very close to each other in the same district of Tokyo I think it is absolutely senseful to let this infobox be where it was.Golem86girmanii 14:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
- I will change the boxes to bottom boxes if I have time the next few days. LHOON 22:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- I still believe my first point is very relevant; there is no connection (in prevalence, prominence, or ideology) between a "Gothic Lolita" and a ganguro girl. I don't think I would have reacted as negatively to the infobox if it was at the bottom of the page. For it to be on the upper right, I think it needs to add informational value to the article. Take Junichiro Koizumi, for example: information on the man in the upper right, and a template list of prime ministers of Japan at the bottom. Dekimasu 17:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Yamanba merge and related edits
I have merged the yamanba page here after the merge suggestion was approved by a 10-0 vote. I did a large amount of editing to the text and formatting of the article here, so please review my changes and let me know what you think. I have also added a picture of "center guys" to the article, although the picture would benefit from a change in the white balance. Please help out if you can. Last but not least, I am creating a talk archive for this page. The archive can be found in the archive box at the top of the page. Dekimasu 14:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
There are still NO cites on this article, but luckiliy, I've obtained the Ganguro Girls book and plan on adding citationsm soon. 130.212.228.143 21:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] conflict of information
Under the heading "Yamanba" it says "Yamanba litterly translates into 'Blackface'.", but under the etymology heading it says that "The term yamanba derives from Yama-uba, the name of a mountain hag". It can clearly not be both can it, because it says on the page about Yama-uba that Yama-uba means mountain crone. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.225.106.239 (talk) 08:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC).
- I had already reverted this out of the article before you posted your comment, so you shouldn't have seen it unless you were looking through the page history. It was 100% incorrect and to add blanket statements like that to an article without any knowledge of Japanese was borderline vandalism on the part of that editor. Dekimasu 14:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Needs pictures
I noticed that someone removed the ganguro photo that was on this for half a year. Anyone care to explain why? 64.121.36.5 21:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- The reason for removal was given in the Edit summary at the time: (Removing "Ganguro2.jpg", it has been deleted from Commons by Infrogmation because: Deleted on en:Wikipedia for no source/problem uploader; this was copied from the en: image..) DAJF 22:19, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Insult?
When I was in Tokyo with my sister who lived there, and in passing said the word "ganguro" about a girl passing some yards away, she hushed me, saying that you shouldn't say that kind of thing out loud. According to her, that was like calling someone a bimbo, or something of the like.
The only mention of ganguro being a bad thing is in the section whereit says it's been described as a bad thing by media. Should the general opinion be included? And I mean that in a way like, say, the way homosexuals are looked down upon by some people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.246.68 (talk) 21:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] So...why?
The article fails to address why ganguro got popular to any degree. It is because the traditional Japanese ideas of feminine beauty? Some sort of counter-culture rebellion? --SeizureDog (talk) 13:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- If you've got anything to contribute, by all means, please add it. adamrice (talk) 19:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've got nothing; I don't even know the answer. I was more wondering if a theory is proposed in one those books in the references or perhaps some other respectable essay.--SeizureDog (talk) 19:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
