Talk:Gamelan

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[edit] Xylophones and glockenspiels

I've changed a couple of references to genders and gambangs being "like" xylophones and glockenspiels, because they're laid out differently - the glockenspiel has two rows of bars (one for "white" notes and one for "black" - like on a piano), while the gamelan instruments only have one row of bars. It was me that compared them to xylophones and glockenspiels in the first place, but I thought I'd explain it here in case anyone was curious, or thought I'd gone mad, or something. --Camembert

The number of rows in the keyboard layout is irrelevant: xylophone and metallophone are "neutral" organological terms. Even in the narrow European-american context, there are sets of of keyed percussion with single (pentatonic, diatonic, chromatic), double, and even triple rows (the Alpine xylophone is laid out in three rows); if the keys are wooden (or some ersatz for woood) the instrument is a xylophone, if the keys are metal, it is a metallophone. (Glockenspiel, on the other hand is a proper name for several instruments, including metallophones and sets of bells).

OK, then put it this way - I changed it in the way I described because for most readers, saying these instruments are "like xylophones" would strongly imply that they have two rows of bars. --Camembert

Your bloody mad you are---Asim Najibi

[edit] Pseudo-octave

I think the comment about inexact octave tuning applies to Balinese gamelan (giving it that “shimmering” quality), but not to Javanese. -- Richard Horsley <richard.horsley@wentworthchambers.com.au>

You may well be right - it's possible I read something specifically about Balinese gamelan and mistakenly thought it also applied to Javanese (my memory is telling me it really does apply to both, but my memory has been proven to be faulty on many occasions...). I don't have anything to hand I can conclusively check this in right now, but I'll try to remember to look it up somewhere (unless you or somebody else does so first, of course). --Camembert

i agree

[edit] Philippines gamelans

Is the gamelan primarily Indonesian? I'm curious because some Filipino-native-instrument bands here in the Philippines are also called gamelans (e.g., a student organization in my university is called Kontra-Gapi short for Kontemporaryong Gamelang Pilipino (Contemporary Philippine Gamelan)). --seav 08:00, Sep 19, 2003 (UTC)

Primarily Indonesian, yes. Exclusively Indonesian, evidently not :) I've fiddled with the article a bit. --Camembert

Gamelans are Indonesian, Filipino, and Malaysian. We have shared the gamelan traditions, and different styles evolved.

okaaiii!!! i av noo ideaa wt you on about. ..You's see i am reaaaalllii stupid....LOOL!!

//..Crofton High School Student..\\*

_________--*Template:Year 8*--__________

[edit] Octaves

Based on Jaap Kunst's book I've corrected an assertion of Camembert that the octaves are not perfect. The intervals vary from one gamelan to the next, but the sum of the intervals remains just one octave for each gamelan. Some specifis based on Kunst's careful measurements are now given. Michael Hardy 22:03, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Michael Tenzer's book Gamelan Gong Kebyar: The Art of Twentieth-Century Balinese Music describes the tuning near octaves in Balinese gamelans. Specifically he suggests a spiral model of pitch to account for both octave equivalency, which the Balinese hear, and the slight non-equivalency of each octave. Hyacinth 22:19, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

A recent edit was summarized by saying Kunst fudged his data to get perfect octaves. Could someone tell us the story behind that? Who demonstrated his guilt and how? What are the details? Specifically where were they published? (Give book titles, article titles, authors' names.) Michael Hardy 03:03, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

See Surjodiningrat et al. "Tone Measurements..."

Kunst measured and compared one octave (the demung range) of many gamelans, and was able to show the wide variety within the slendro and pelog tunings. He did not publish anything about the octave relationships within any one gamelan.

Comparing the data collected by Surjodiningrat et al., mentioned above, and the measurements we took of every key, pot and gong in three gamelans in Toronto (two Javanese, one Balinese) one sees a general tendancy. The notes are generally sharper in the upper register and somewhat flat in the lower register. Some of this can be attributed to the way pitch changes in bronze as the metal stabilizes after forging (a sixty-some year process). But most gamelans also have at least one note that is sharper in the upper register, flatter in the middle, and sharp again in the lower register. And some have one note (#2, #5 or #6) which is all exact octaves in all pitch levels. One can but assume that these octave warps are intentional. David P.

[edit] Confusing passage

This is confusing: "...pairs which are tuned slightly apart so as to produce beat(?) which are(?) ideally at a consistent speed for all pairs of notes in all registers. It is thought that this contributes to the very "busy" and "shimmering" sound of gamelan ensembles." that "beat" is linked ambiguously. Is this supposed to refer to "beat tones" (if that's the term?) As with the pulses heard when say a pair of guitar strings are just off unison?

Yes. Hyacinth 21:31, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Descendents

Although kecapi suling and tembang sunda in a way derive from gamelan they certainly are not gamelan, but Tembang Sunda (Cianjuran) (Kacapi Suling being the instrumental variety), see Van Zanten: 1989. Maybe a new Tembang Sunda-entry is needed...? [Martijn]

blah blah blah. i dont get u

[edit] Madenda

Where did you find that Debussy heard a gamelan tuned in the madenda scale?

I had never heard that, and replaced it with a referenced explanation that he heard the slendro scale. Rigadoun (talk) 19:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use

Just added a sentence at the beginning about how the term "gamelan" is used by people in the trade - if it's unclear, feel free to remove it or ask me to try rephrasing/expanding. Rabican 18:34, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Gamelans around the world

Australia seems to have a lot of gamelan groups - I maintain an Australian gamelan directory - and I have the impression the Netherlands also has more than its "fair share" of groups (again, for obvious reasons).

[edit] spiritual/religious/mystical links of gamelan

It would be good to have some discusson of the links between gamelan and broader culture. I don't know much about Balinese gamelan, but central Javanese gamelan has had strong links to kejawen mysticism/religion, tantrism, and so forth. A good source is Judith Becker, Gamelan Stories: Tantrism, Islam, and Aesthetics in Central Java, ISBN 1-881044-06-8

Danny Yee

how about some pictures?

[edit] no wayang?

I'm surprised there's no mention at all of the wayang in the article! I'm not sure where I'd put it, though. --jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 05:32, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Image organization

I've organized the images that Fir0002 added the other day, following the guidelines at Wikipedia:Images. I removed the gallery, because the images did not add any useful information to the article, and were of the same subjects that the photos I left in were of. If a reader is interested in more pictures, there is already a link to the Commons.

Putting images in a column like they were is not a perferable way of organizing the images. When they are in a column, they do not support the content of the article, because there is no way to tell what part of the article they are related to. They become a distraction, and they overwhelm the text! ~MDD4696 (talk • contribs) 01:44, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] gamelan "ensembles"

At the moment we have a section with subsections listing

Balinese gamelan ensembles
Javanese gamelan ensembles
Other Indonesian gamelan ensembles

But these aren't lists of specific ensembles, but rather *kinds* of gamelans. This risks being confused with lists of gamelan groups. Can we make that clearer? -- Danny Yee 22:49, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural context

I've started a new section to discuss links to dance, wayang, etc. It's just a one sentence placeholder at the moment, but I plan to expand it. We really need separate articles on Javanese dance and Balinese dance, or possibly one Javanese and Balinese dance article. -- Danny Yee 06:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Instruments

I've started to create/improve individual articles on the instruments of the gamelan, but I play in a Gamelan Surakarta and my knowledge is mostly limited to that. I wonder if some of you (especially those who play Balinese/Sundanese gamelan) could review the articles and make them more general to other kinds of gamelan. So far I did saron (instrument), bonang, gong ageng, kempyang and ketuk, and kendang. (There is already gendér and some of the elaborating instruments.) I should get around to the others soon. I was also thinking of making a template to navigate between the instruments easily. Rigadoun 20:46, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Traditionally

Traditionally, "gamelan" comes from the Javanese word "gamel", meaning hammer.

Does it come from something else non-traditionally? Is "etymologically" meant here? --Ptcamn 05:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guitar tab for bastardized version of pelog

I think Image:GamelanScale.jpg is totally inappropriate, because for one thing, the pelog scale is not found in 12-tone equal temperament, and more importantly, I've never heard of a gamelan using guitar tab. If notation for the scale should be included at all, it should use standard music notation. —Keenan Pepper 00:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I just realized it's in the "Influence on Western music" section, so using 12-equal is excusable, but I still don't like the image. Far better would be a score, in standard notation, of a piece that contains elements reminiscent of gamelan. —Keenan Pepper 00:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I also found it quite odd. -- Samuel Wantman 01:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It was me. Apologies if I offended anyone with me putting in my bit(s) into the 'Gamelan: Influence on Western Music' section. I'm new here so please hear me out. My main aims were 2-fold. First was to put in a couple of links to some sound samples of a gamelan scale and/or part of a non-copyright-dependent piece of gamelan music. Now that I hear your disapprovals, I will go back there to see if there were already links there to be heard/accessed that I'd missed. Secondly, having been born in South East Asia, and having affection for gamelan music and the gamelan music scale(s) in particular, I wanted to present the gamelan scale in a form that many guitarists who do not read the standard music notation can understand and use. If your disapproval is based on image-quality, do say so and I'll redo it. If your objection is that the scale is not correct, I really want you to correct me (or put one in yourself if you feel like it). As for the tablature form however, I beg to disagree. It is because I too have not heard (seen) gamelan in guitar tab, that I believe there is a need for it. Guitar tablature is what many guitarists, especially young guitarists, amateurs and hobbyists know. I wouldn't mind the standard notation there too before the tablature, because it is better and more informative, but I'm one of them who does not know standard notation. So yes please, how about someone writing it in standard notation and placing the image there with/instead of one written in guitar tablature. Finally, if you think it could have fit in better somewhere else in wikipedia, please let me know. I don't think so, but you never know. If you think that some of my input was valid and useful but not there in that section but maybe in a section I could create somewhere, please let me know too. I'd appreciate it.

     Thank you for your feedback and time.   —Jamal Ibrahim

(UTC)

I don't think a "standard music notation" representation of a gamelan scale would be any better. It's not possible to represent gamelan scales using 12-tone notation (unless one starts on microtones) and attempting to do so seems more misleading than helpful. What would be nice is an interactive (Flash? Java?) webpage that shows the frequencies of a particular gamelan and demonstrates how they can't be fitted into a Western scale. -- Danny Yee 09:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] And then he kissed me?

This seems like a big stretch to use the song "And then he kissed me" as an example of Gamelan influence. If there is no citation for this it seems that discussion of the song should go. Lots of pop tunes are written in pentatonic scales. While studying in Bali, I found I could play practically every Rod Stewart song I heard. The Hustle fits in slendro. Auld Lang Sein fits nicely in slendro as well. When my teacher in Bali heard me trying it out on an a Balinese instrument he recognised it and said "That's a very old Balinese tune!" -- Samuel Wantman 09:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

At an FSU concert a while ago the gamelan played together with the dixieland jazz group. Turns out When the Saints Go Marching In kinda fits into pelog. I'll be on the lookout for any documented examples of gamelan influence on Western music, so we can replace the bogus ones. —Keenan Pepper 21:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. There must be a lot of pieces that "kinda fit" into gamelan scales... For something to warrant a mention here it needs to have a more substantial connection, and it must be notable. -- Danny Yee 00:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The Crystals' 'Then He Kissed me' : I would put a link there for a music sample from the song, except that's probably full of copyright issues. I did reference it to other wikipedia articles on Tamla Motown/The Crystals/Phil Spector where the song was mentioned. No mention of gamelan there though, of course. I don't mind this Crystals song section being removed. I'm convinced, but doesn't mean others need to be at all. However, do look up the tune and give it a listen if you don't already know it.Good point about 'notable' Danny. Unless you've already done it, look out for it at your city library, borrow it and give it a listen. Or nowadays, with many music stores having easy computer non-intrusive listening facilities via headphones, it's very possible there. Look for The Crystals CDs and then the song. Thanks for your comments and please do confirm if you actually know the song or have now got to hear it. --Jamal Ibrahim 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] gamelan outside indonesia

I propose we move this material to a separate article gamelan outside Indonesia. What do people think? -- Danny Yee 02:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It is the longest section of this article, which seems to imply it is more important than the Indonesian kind. Systemic bias, I'm afraid. Rigadoun (talk) 15:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Does "Gamelan outside Indonesia" seem right, or can you think of a better name for the new article? -- Danny Yee 12:55, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't think of anything better, that would be inclusive of Australia, Europe, and North America. It can be renamed later if we think of something better. Rigadoun (talk) 18:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've created the new article and moved the obvious material. I'm sure there's more stuff that need's tidying up, though! -- Danny Yee 05:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notation

The article includes links to web pages with notations for gamelan music. The articel on musical notation (which is curretly very eurocentric) does not contain any hint on this. It would be great if maybe one of you experts on gamelan music could change that and also elaborate on the notation system(s?) used either in the Gamelan article or in the musical notation article or in an extra article referenced by both). Nannus 18:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

There's a bit on gamelan notation at Kepatihan, but there could be much more. I've been meaning to add a discussion of this to the article. Rigadoun (talk) 23:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, I added that, as well as a history section, and added text to the section on different styles. I propose moving the list to its own article, so it doesn't break up the flow of the article, and just mention some of the principal styles or what makes them distinctive in a prose overview. Without such context, the list is a bit bewildering to a novice. Rigadoun (talk) 20:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Good work. And yes, moving the list of varieties to a separate article seems sensible to me. -- Danny Yee 03:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History section

Is it just me, or does this bit of the history section strike anyone as odd:

The gamelan has an old and mysterious origin. Apparently it predates the Hindu-Buddhist culture that dominated Indonesia in its earliest records, and instead represents a native art form. The instruments developed into their current form during the Majapahit Empire.[1] In contrast to the heavy Indian influence in other art forms, the only obvious Indian influence in gamelan music is in the Javanese style of singing.[2]

Hindu-Buddhist culture dominated Indonesia in its earliest records? Which records were these? More importantly, the comments about Indian influence are bizarre, properly cited or not. The kendhang (tuned biconical drums) are clearly of South Asian origin, the metrical patterns have a similar relationship to poetic meters as one finds in South Asian music, and of course much of the imagery, related theatrical narrative, and terminology is clearly Indianized. The singing style, on the other hand--how exactly is that a marker of Indian influence? Why would that persist, of all things?Rikyu 22:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The earliest written records (inscriptions, mostly) are from Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms, as writing was part of a cultural package that included religion that came ultimately from India. I don't think gamelan is mentioned in any of these, but the source I was using inferred (from musical clues, I think) that elements of the gamelan predated that. Perhaps that needs rephrasing. The poetry, narratives, etc., are of course Indianized, and that is what is meant by "the heavy Indian influence in other art forms." The music per se (scales, rhtyhmic structures, melodic motives, use of harmony) do not show Indian influence (I believe the source specifically mentioned that Indonesian colotomic structures in bear only superficial resemblance to tala). I'm not exactly sure about how the singing style reflected Indian influence and the other things didn't; that was basically asserted in the source (it may give more details, I don't remember). As far as instruments, the bronze instruments for the most part don't resemble anything in India, and I think that was the main point the author was making. The kendhang does look like the mridangam...I don't believe kendhangs were mentioned in the source, and I don't know anything about their history. Perhaps they are a later addition? Suling would be another instrument I'm not sure about. (Rebab and siter are from historical times.) Rigadoun (talk) 19:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Got it--the source seems to be the cause of the lack of clarity here. A better source is Sumarsam's Gamelan: Cultural Interaction and Musical Development in Central Java (University of Chicago Press, 1992), especially the first two chapters, which cite early Javanese manuscripts that describe gamelan instruments and performance. One of these does indeed describe the kendhang (using a variation on the word "mridangam"). The rebab is of Central Asia origin, brought with or after Islam, and the siter is clearly Dutch. The overall form of the ensemble (slendro-pelog, full set of instruments, much of the repertoire) is significantly more recent. Check out Sumarsam's book if you get the chance--it's a good read.

I have read parts of Sumarsam's book, but haven't read the whole thing and didn't have it on hand when I was trying to add a few comments on the history. It would indeed be a clearer and more reliable source. I'll try to fix this up someday, or you can if you like. Rigadoun (talk) 16:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. I'm only fitfully free to work on Wikipedia, I'm afraid, which I realize does not make me unique. I have Sumarsam's book, though, as well as some other useful sources (Kunst's books, etc.), so I'll try to flesh out the history part a bit. Thanks for getting things going!Rikyu 16:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How to tune a gong

The section on tuning is interesting but how exactly does one tune a gong, or xylophone for that matter? Thanks. Astrophil 22:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

A xylophone or other similarly-shaped idiophone is tuned by shaving material (wood or metal) from the ends (to make it sharper) or from the middle (to make it flatter)--or do I have those backwards? Gongs are similarly tuned by shaving from certain parts, or wax can be added to parts that are too thin. I'll see if I can find a description of it somewhere and add a referenced mention of it in the article. Rigadoun (talk) 17:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, yes, that is backwards, Rigadoun. The fundamental pitch of a vibrating body is largely determined by the ratio of the masses on either side of the nodes. On a bar instrument such as a xylophone key, the nodes are the two points by which the bar is suspended (if you've done it right...). So shaving material from the middle (between the nodes) raises the pitch, while shaving material from the ends (outside the nodes) lowers the pitch. Or you can add material to the middle to lower the pitch, or add material to the ends to raise it. For a gong, which is a vibrating plate, the situation is a bit more complicated. The nodes are circular, distributed concentrically across the face of the gong like a bull's eye. The equivalent of shaving the middle of the key is thinning the material on the boss (the knob), whereas the equivalent of shaving the ends is thinning the material on the shoulder. However, the acoustics of gongs are significantly more complicated that those of bar instruments. What the ear hears as a fundamental pitch with a gong is actually a standing wave created by a steady sweep through a specific range of frequencies. That is to say, the ear (in a sense) hears the slope of the curve, and not the curve itself. This makes it very difficult to tune a gong without horribly screwing things up--it's easy to make the sweep unstable, or split it into multiple simultaneous bands. The main purpose of the wax additions to gongs, especially big ones, is to dampen the unwanted bands and stabilize the sweep. In short: any old fool can tune a xylophone. It takes a special fool to tune a gong.Rikyu 19:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)