Talk:Gambeson

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[edit] Terminalogy

This article should be seperated to Gambeson and Aketon seperatally as they perform different functions. Aketons are worn under chain mail and stop mail from digging into flesh and help prevent shock transference. Gambessons protect the mail from being destroyed and are worn on top of chain mail they also help against slashing and piercing attacks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.77.181.1 (talk) 11:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The terminology is no where near that clear cut. In original documents the terms are used interchangeably. The distinction you make is first made by authors such as Blair and reflect at best tendencies not definitions (e.g. the term used for underarmour maybe aketon 40% of the time, gambeson 30% and a variety of other words the the other 30% of the time (depending on translator and original language as well)). Also mail only has to worry about being destroyed by rain, not weapons. Mercutio.Wilder (talk) 01:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cotton Aketons

One of the synonyms for gambeson is aketon. This english word is derived from the Arabic and means "of cotton". Since one of the English words for gambeson means cotton I find it reasonable to conclude that cotton was one of the materials used in their construction.

(If you doubt their efficacy, the ones I've made from cotton and it's entirely knife proof.)

Mercutio.Wilder (talk) 18:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

However, cotton was a comparatively rare fibre in Europe during the middle ages. Part of the reason is that cotton is a difficult to process as the fibres have to be combed out of the bud - something that was made commercially possible by the invention of the cotton gin in the 18th(?) century.

Cotton was originally imported into the Middle East from India and eventually grown there, especially in Egypt. Printed Indian cottons were reasonably cheap in Egypt, Syria, etc during the c12th -15th centuries. However, Europe made do with flax/linen which was the local product. Cotton was supposedly more expensive in Europe than silk (which seems strange since they are both imported fibres and silk was certainly the more expensive option in the middle east). Market forces at work, perhaps?

While it is conceded that the Arab word for cotton does indeed give rise to the word "Aketon", gambasons (noun: from the A.S. word "wambas" meaning stuffed or filled) are also recorded as being made from layers of linen and wool.

Conclusion: cotton fibres were used as padding in aketons and gambasons however the cost of doing so would indicate that it was not widespread and that other more economical and locally produced alternatives were used.

Regarding linen: the coarse tea-towel material that we see today is nothing like the fine linens and damask that have been produced over the ages. Producing fibres from the flax plant has had centuries of expertise in it's production. One of the main reasons it has fallen from favour seems to be that it does a poor job in holding it's dyes, something that dyed and printed cottons can do easily. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Barry.beattie (talk • contribs) 13:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

We need references for these assertions. I fully acknowledge that the use of the word for cotton could be complete gibberish (like the fact that car radiators do very little radiating). Mercutio.Wilder (talk) 01:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Since it is difficult to produce durable threads from natural cotton, it seems plausible that the first cotton wool imported to northern europe was used as a stuffing material rather than for producing fabrics. However, I feel that the etymology of "Aketon" from the arabic "al qutn" = "cotton" is not without alternatives: Under the reign of Henry I, Robert of Oketon was High Sheriff of Yorkshire ( [[1]]), and in 1365, Robert of Aketon was Bishop of Down in Ireland (See: [[2]]). Noteably, at least one Online dictionary gave "Acton" as a synonyme for "Aketon": [<a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Aketon">Aketon</a>] Acton, however, also being a place in London: [[3]] Check the etymology for the name given in this article! --> "farm close to oak trees" Given the somewhat liberal orthography in former times, it seems to me at least as plausible as the root from arabic "al qutn - cotton" , that the name "Aketon" refers to a specific location, where this form of protective clothing was maybe invented, first put into service, became fashionable or was produced in great numbers. Are there any other sources for this assertion? 134.2.89.19 (talk) 15:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Additional note: If cotton was so expensive, I wonder why it was used at all as a stuffing for protective clothing, when its technical properties do not make it very likely that the resulting product was of superiour quality? Cotton is less stress resistant than linen, does not repell dirt and microbes like linen, takes up a lot of vapour (sweat!), is not feeling very comfortable when wet, and it takes a very long time for drying 134.2.89.19 (talk) 16:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)