Talk:Gakhar Hindus

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[edit] No References to Claims

Hello. Interesting page although you have not provided any referances or citations. Please do! Thanks--Peter 13:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)peterkeyani--Peter 13:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Peter. This page has absolutely no references or citations. I have read numerous work relating to the Gakhar clan and have yet to find any mention of the clan have any Hindu elements.
1. The article makes such very strong claims regarding the clans conversion from Hinduism and Buddhism to Islam. Can I see the references to prove this please?
2. Also, there is a claim that some Gakhars did not convert and remained Hindu. Yet there is no cited reference or proof of them becoming Hindu? Considering they were champions of Zoroastrainism, they are assumed to have become Hindu upon entry into India. This is erroneous as the Parsi community, staunch Persian Zoroastrians, never converted upon entry to India en masse. I do believe their may be non Muslim elements of the Gakhars residing in India. But to label them all as Hindu, indeed requires proof, a simple citation. They can be of many other Indian faiths, or indeed still Zoroastrains (which is very much probable).
3. There is also a claim that the Gakhar Hindus resided in "Jhelum, Kashmir, and West Punjab (which now falls in the Pakistan Punjab)." But strangely, considering the tribe was heavily recorded by the British researchers and ethnographers as completely Muslim, there has been NO mention of them having been Hindu. Not to say there were no Hindu Gakhars in India at all. But just that they were NOT recorded as living in the above stated regions. I dont see how this claim could have been made without any proof quite frankly.
This query is not countering their existence, just countering the claims made on this page and requesting published proof for these claims please.
I would advise a re write of the claims, either verified with citations, or removed and rewritten to reflect the points above. Wiki policies in this case for citations must be adhered to. --Raja 10:46, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Supersaiyan|Raja your queries are better answered by anonymous user 24.10.142.95 .

Cheers Intothefire 13:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Im sure they will. --Raja 13:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Raja

Now to get back to where this all began . My additions of Hindu Gakhars being continously deleted from the Gakhar page and to avoid an edit conflict ...I set up a new page although I think this was patently unfair . All the same here is the exact text of the first post ...perhaps you should have checked it yourself .Lets look at it and then I will elaborate .

"Hindu Gakhars are an ancient clan of India from the Punjab region . Gakhars are found among both Khatris as well as Rajputs . After the Partition of India in 1947 Hindu Gakhars moved from their traditional homes in West Punjab and what is now part of Pakistan to India.

Before the partition of India Hindu Gakhars were settled in the areas of Rawalpindi and Jhelum .

After the arrival of Islam into the subcontinent a predominant section of Gakhars converted to Islam from Hinduism. The Muslim Gakhars in Pakistan are a prominent community in that country ."

Then even this inocious page started to get attacked ....see my post to Siddiqui..for example below . What is the proof you require to this post ....
a)You question that there are any living Hindu Gakhars at all ?
b)You question that Gakhars were ever converted to Islam ?
c)You question that Gakhars were converted from Hinduism to Islam ?

I will provide the responses for the precise question or objections you may have ,provided they pertain to my posts ,which if they dont I do not respond . As to me being a RSS member I could only laugh since I specifically reject their exclusivist worldview.

Having read Farishta ...which is often quoted here ...I could say that much of what he has said is only his- Farishta s imbalanced opinion that often border on abuse . Frankly His obnoxious observations on Gakhars calling them barbarians is only an extension of his own highly prejudiced mind . If you have read both Farishta and Alberuni you would I am sure be able to see the vast difference of these two authors in their observations of Indian culture . I need not subscribe to Farishtas hateful opinions on Gakhars , but according to the rules of wikipedia his opinion is taken for proof ?

Cheers Intothefire 04:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Having understood what you mean regarding this issue not being given space in the original article, I can understand you having another page devoted to the subject. Problem is, you still managed to ensure that the Hindu side were mentioned in the original Gakhars page, thus confusing as to why this was even needed when it states the same info?
The problem is, and I mean this respectfully intothefire, I dont think you read what is written first, then put up your points. I feel this because you have yet to answer the above points, which already ascribe what I am saying. I never said there weren't any Gakhars, but I requested what info you had to suggest that they were Hindus and not any other Indo or Zoroastrian faith? See above again to understand. I dont see why I should re type my points when you can read them above, perfectly clearly. But I have managed to bullet point them by numbers for you to make it easier for you to see them. Answer them and we can either dramatically improve this article, or perhaps see what extra there is here (that isnt already in the Gakhars page already) to warrant a seperate page in the 1st place.
Regarding the Ferishta's opinions of Gakhars, it does warrant mention, but also I would include the alternative point from other historians and also perhaps from the tribe itself (Raja Jehandad Khan's research rebuttal) perhaps? I believe Al beruni to be the better more neutral source though. You have to remember, Ferishta's account is simply word of mouth, many many centuries later than the alleged incident and the ONLY indicator of this tribe's presence in India prior to Ghazni's campaigns.
Regarding Siddiqui, I believe if you weren't so harsh to him (inexperience of wiki language accord I guess...) perhaps you guys could have worked together on this. Citations my man, just citations! :-)--Raja 12:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Siddiqui

Siddiqui Just as the deliberate obiliteration of the history of Siddiquis from India would be completely unjustified as for example the stellar contribution of the Muhajir Urdu community s contribution in the establishment of Pakistan is being obiliterated... So is the case with the Hindu Gakhars or millions of others who are now living in India but belong to the area which now forms Pakistan.

As a Pakistani , you proclaim your own Indian and Arabic roots , and yet you steadfastly wish to deny the roots of others ?? Why ?

What is a Pakistani surname ? please elucidate . And by that same yardstick standard explain where Siddiqui belong . ?

Are you quite sure that there is not one single Hindu Gakhar left in Pakistan?

I have made a separate page Gakhar Hindus in deference to the existing page that covers Muslim Gakhars of Pakistan ....and now you vandal this ....!

You bandy your siddiqui lineage as if it were a caste , and you edit the lineage of others ?

Where do you belong ? Intothefire 13:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Discussion on Gakhar page

A lively debate took place on the Gakhars discussion page ,which would be of interest to anyone visiting this page for information on Gakhar history .
Cheers
Intothefire 16:18, 5 August 2007 (UTC) Intothefire 16:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

For reasons known to themselves some contributors who also regularly post on the Gakhar page have had an objection to acknowledgement or the existance of Hindu Gakhars .
For those Doubting Thomas there is an easy way to clear their doubts please visit [1] the online MTNL telephone directory of Delhi select Individual Residential
and simply type Gakhar .

Cheers
Intothefire 17:54, 6 October 2007 (UTC)