User talk:Gabhala
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[edit] Celticity of the British Isles
I have decided to bring this here from the Discussion page of the article on the Celts. Personally, I think a detailed discussion on the topic would clutter up the Talk:Celts page and confuse the more important issue of deciding on a workable definition for the term Celts.
The main argument against the inclusion of the populations of the British Isles under the term Celts seems to be that no record seems to have survived as the Romans or Greeks using that term in that context. To me, this is not the same thing as the Romans and/or Greeks not including them in the term. However, Wikipedia's rules on Original Research and Verifiable could be interpreted to mean that the term should not, therefore, include the ancient people of the British Isles.
On the other hand, the same rules could also be interpreted to mean that since several reliable and authorative sources include these isles as Celtic by the second century BC (The Celtic World, Barry Cunliffe, ISBN 0-09-471640-4, pp. 19)they should be included in the scope of the term.
[edit] Ptolemy
In addition to linguistic, archeological, and cultural evidence linking the populations of the British Isles, Ptolemy's lists of the tribes of Gaul, Brittania, Caledonia and Ireland show many tribal names recurring across these areas. At least two of the tribes listed in Ireland occur in Gaul. I have found references to evidence from Ptolemy that tribes of the Belgae were also present, though I have thus far been unable to unearth anything more specific. There are at least three tribes that occur both in Ireland and in Britain, and several more with names similar enough that a case can be made for them being the same tribes.
Again, I have been unable to dig up anything specific, but I have found references to the works of Avienus and Pytheas of Massalia supporting the Celticity of the inhabitants of the British Isles.
[edit] Ancient Irish Literature
The Irish mythologies, written down by monks, from an older oral tradition, describe a social structure and methods of warfare with significant and marked similarities to Caesar's description of Gaul.
Gabhala 22:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just for info, and without checking out my references, my understanding is that there's scholarly debate about this, and while the term "Celt" does not seem to have applied to the British Isles in antiquity, Lhuyd's usage has entered the language and is generally accepted as a catch-all term including the Hibernii, Albions, Priteni and Britons....... dave souza, talk 23:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
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- Hi, Dave - that is my understanding too, but the comment has been made more than once that discussion of the Celts in antiquity should not include the British Isles, since there is no surviving evidence of either the Greeks or Romans using the term in that context. This may mean that the inhabitants of Ireland and Britain were not Celtic, it may simply mean that the works refering to them as such have not survived or it may even be a consequence of the term having dropped out of common usage by the time the Romans encountered these peoples on any significant basis. I personally believe that under WP:V and WP:RS there is ample scope for their inclusion, regardless of when the term was applied. Gabhala 12:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Celts
You had indicated on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals page that you would be interested in working with a project dealing with Celts. The project is now active at the page linked to above. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 18:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] The Celts as Barbarians?
Your thoughts and/or comments are requested here. Thanks. —Aryaman (Enlist!) 14:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
