Talk:G.I. Bill

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Contents

[edit] Too Complicated and Incomplete

First, the articles on VEAP and MGIB should remain on their own as they are legislation passed many years after the Serviceman's Readjustment Act of 1944. Any vet knows of the MGIB today and will likely have never heard of any "readjustment act". I suppose the article on the Serviceman's Readjustment Act could have a short discussion on how education benefits have morphed into today's GI Bill but todays benefits are only a legacy of the 1944 legislation.

I hate to sound critical but there are serious problems with the entries on MGIB, VEAP and the MGIB comparison table that is attached to the Serviceman's Readjustment Act of 1944 article. Some of the information is inaccurate and it is entirely incomplete.

Wikipedia should consider sticking to some basic facts about each of these programs and not try to enter into specifics. The rules in dealing with the payment and entitlement of these benefits are contained in thousands of pages of combined Regulations, US Code and finally the manuals used by those at the Veterans Administration who actually process the benefits for our veterans. With every rule there is an exception and for every exception there is another rule and they change constantly! What few words spoken of on the MGIB article regarding entitlement and the time limit within which benefits are required to be used is inadequate, inaccurate and incomplete. The problem I am trying to get across is that in order to make it complete would require volumes which already exist and are maintained by the experts.

In closing, please cut these articles out as they exist and provide basic facts about each benefit type and possibly a historical reference. Anything a person needs to know and a link to ask someone a question can be found at http://www.gibill.va.gov/ Wspruce 21:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)bill 12/12/06

[edit] And your experience comes from what?

Less talk, more action, and Yes I take offense to what you wrote.

When a person think of GI BILL they think of educational benefits. As a result of an ever changing environment, politics, and incentives by the Military and U.S. Government; The GI BILL has evolved as well. Now if you feel like the table does not provide a brief overview of what is available, and different characteristics among the different types incentives available. Then feel free to do something about it. But I seriously doubt that you can do anything better.

I do not have direct experience with every different type of educational benefits, the one's I do have direct experience with is as follows: CH 30, CH 1606, CH 1607, Tuition Assistance, and Student Loan Repayment Program. And I assure you Tuition Assistance, and Student Loan Repayment Program, is not found on the VA website, however they are educational benefits provided by the military.

Also what is written, and what is done are two different things in the real world. And I can assure you I know this for a fact, because I am a (44C) Financial Management Technician in the Military. Service Members come to me and ask me how you do this, in order to get this. When I have to explain to an Reservist, that if they decide to go in the IRR or not extend there contract, guess what your Educational Benefits are terminated. "But, but my recruiter said I have 10 year to use it. " guess what the recruiter did not tell you everything, and sometimes when I talk to the VA rep, I know more than they do. But you are right there is alway an exception, but how many service members know about it. That chart is only basically a rule of thumb, you click on the link for more detail. Paul.Paquette 23:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How about "GI"? and: "G. I."-->"G.I."?

I notice that the use of "GI" w/o periods is quite common out there (like on the illustration in this very article), so we might consider using that instead of the punctuated variant.

Also, if sticking with a punctuated variant, shouldn't we rather use "G.I." w/o a space in between the letters? Looks much better IMO, and perhaps it is just as grammatically correct? --Wernher 20:31, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, on second thought, maybe we should just stick with the present article name--G. I. Bill of Rights. I'll make a few more redirects. --Wernher 15:28, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The term 'democratized' seems a bit offensive for all the reasons stated on the page 'African Americans and the GI-bill'. Perhaps it could be clarified by saying that it helped the white middle class become upwardly mobile while leaving blacks behind in the inner-cities?

G.I. (with the dots) is the preferred form when talking about a soldier. For the "act", either GI Bill or G.I. Bill is used. --Uncle Ed 18:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hmm...

The whites had introduced racial policies to shut out African Americans from suburban communities but it should be argued that Amendment 14 guarantees the rights of all citizens of United States: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Of course African Americans buying suburban homes not unconstitutional! So what is written is simply fact.

It is only the barriers set by property companies that bar African Americans buying houses. Then the governments did not stop this. Sigh!

Concerned 07:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Just a note of explanation: (1) Amendment 14, which you quoted above, prohibits the U.S. (or individual State) government from making or enforcing any law abridging the "privileges and immunities, etc." It did not apply to individuals, whether people or private companies. Consequently, there was need to pass more comprehensive Civil Rights legislation, which was done in the 1950s and 1960s (public accommodation, housing, employment, etc.). With respect to the subject you raised (housing--restrictive covenants), the "landmark" case of Shelley v. Kraemer ruled that the use of courts to enforce restrictive covenants in housing developments is unconstitutional. This was in 1948. So by that time, black (or Jewish, or Japanese) families could no longer be excluded from purchasing a home (whether with the help of the G.I. Bill or through any other means) in an area in which the residents wanted to exclude them. For whatever comfort it is. Progress proceeds slowly. 66.108.4.183 12:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth


[edit] Certification

The certification section of the article sounds like it's being written by an army recruiter and needs to be changed to a more neutral, historic stance.


[edit] Suburbs

The article on the GI Bill makes the assumption that there are cities and suburban towns, and the suburbs were populated entirely from the urban neighborhoods. While this might explain what became known as the "white flight" phenomenon of the 1960s and 1970s, the late 1940s and 1950s were a different era.

During WWII there was a population shift from the rural to old and new manufacturing centers. In addition, many people decided to move to California, which had suburban communities surrounding the defense plants. With the return of millions of GIs in 1945, the demand for housing outstripped availability. The GI Bill, signed by FDR, was intended to provide a smooth social transition from war time to peace time and not to perpetuate historical patterns of discrimination (in fact the home loans specifically prohibited discrimination).

Not all suburban communities were segregated or restricted on ethnic lines, and the newer housing developments tended to be open to diversity. Many former GIs wanted to live in affordable detached houses close to schools, parks, and libraries. They wanted quiet neighborhoods, without crime and traffic, with room for lawns and gardens. The suburbs were perfect for these young families because these communities offered the appeal of the small rural towns with the conveniences of modern cities.

The urban political and social establishment immediately saw a challenge to their traditional position of power and authority, but could do little to actually stop the growth of the suburbs. The old political machines and union bosses were dismayed at how quickly suburbanites came to see itself as a post war middle class distinct from the pre-war working class, and the urban and academic intellectuals came out against what they saw as a sterile new suburban culture uninterested in the elite arts. The suburbanites were unaffected by, if not actually unaware of, this criticism, and instead went about raising families and having barbecues.

[edit] Mergefrom

I added the Mergefrom tag for a bunch of articles (to which I added mergeto tags.) All of the proposed-merge articles are short and with little relevance to anything other than the larger G.I. Bill. It appears that they should all be merged into this article.

Separately, shouldn't this article be renamed "Servicemen's Readjustment etc etc..." ? Paul 04:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Did it ever occur to you that the reason I made the information box? if you merge all these articles into one massively big one, then individuals will get lost and overwhelm in information overload. Beside, Tuition assistance is a benefit but not a guarantee, just something to sweeten the pot. Paul.Paquette

  • I think the article should be merged or at least provide links to the smaller articles from the GI bill primary article.

AmericanPatriot29 00:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Student Loan Repayment is not part of the G.I. Bill. So I do not think it should be merged.--Oldwildbill 12:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

"Tuition assistance" is a much broader concept than this one US GI program. The article now doesn't really have any content, just links to individual documents associated with that program. Is it possible this article can be developed, either by actual content about the US program, or with general information on tuition assistance and descriptions of other programs?Lisamh 19:27, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

It would take serious effort to combine all the GI bills into one article. Let's shape it as a series, with the 1947 bill as the first. (I removed the merge tag.) --Uncle Ed 19:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Typo in section "Criticisms of the G.I. Bill"

This line:

It is also asserted that such a subsidization of higher education has led to overproduction, in this case overproducing college degrees so that the supply of people with college degrees does not meet the demand of the market


...surely if it's overproducing, it's more correct to say that the demand does not meet the supply? Perhaps 'match' would be a better term than 'meet' as it doesn't imply that the supply was insufficient.

[edit] Name of article

I thought GI Bill was the best, but Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944 is more formal, hence more "encyclopedic". Note that the text calls it the "GI Bill" throughout (with one reference to "GI Bill of Rights".

Ask any American about the "GI Bill" - especially in connection with college tuition assistance, and the 1944 act as what they think of.

I used a similar program called VEAP in the 1980s. --Uncle Ed 18:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move. Much more common name in English. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 09:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Support Although I appreciate the logic of the editor above (that Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944 is the formal definition), I do not believe that the name as it stands conforms for Wikipedia Naming Conventions. Specifically, from WP:Naming Conventions,
Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

Clearly, G.I. Bill is "what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize." The lead of the article says as much. JCO312 21:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Support. Assuming the article is accurate, the most common name is G.I. Bill. Andrewa 14:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Just because it is widely known as GI Bill here in America, assuming the rest of the world know this name is wrong. This is just an American nickname given to this real Servicemen's Readjustment Act. Not necessary a more common name. Chris! my talk 00:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment: This bill is unlikely to be well known outside of the USA, so if (as you seem to concede) this American nickname is well established in the USA then overall it is probably the most common name worldwide as well. Is there any evidence that the official name is more widely used than the nickname outside of the USA, or that significant numbers of people outside the USA are even aware of the bill's existence? No change of vote. Andrewa 20:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. The "majority of English speakers" would clearly use "G.I. Bill" to describe the Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944. In fact, the Government largely uses "G.I. Bill" to describe the Act. And by "the Government," I mean specifically, the United States Department of Veterans Affairs. "G.I. Bill" returns 2.69 million hits on Google, whereas "Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944" returns 66,500. I think those numbers put into perspective just what the "common" name of this Act really is: the "G.I. Bill." JasonCNJ 21:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support, I bet 99% of people wouldn't be able to tell you the official name of the G.I. Bill. --Pmsyyz 22:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Well how did it benefit others....

As i attend to read this article I was wondering how did it effect or benefit servicemen other then blacks and whites since as it seems it doesn't really talk about that thought i was thinking of people like mexican-americans and such. As there were other known Ethnic Groups from america that had fought just as blacks and whites had did. So I was sorta curious and wondering about it and so forth about it. About what effect it had on Ethnic Groups other then European American and African americans. -Jana

[edit] Charge of Racism Needs to Be Supported or Eliminated

The article contains the phrase "[t]he bill helped to democratize the 'American Dream' primarily for white Americans." This charge of racism needs to be clarified. For example, (1) was the program administered in a racist manner, (2) what was the total number of blacks who received a benefit from the program, (3) for those persons receiving benefits, what was the level of educational performance, broken down by race? Without this type of support, the implication that the bill was primarily for the benefit of white persons is merely racist rhetoric that should be eliminated.


130.13.4.45 (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)John Paul Parks130.13.4.45 (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)