Talk:Futurism

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[edit] Futurism in the 1920s and 1930s

I have added to this section, trying to give a balanced view of the relation between Futurism and Fascism.

The period of il secondo Futurismo is very complicated, both artistically and politically, and arguably Futurism was not really a movement at all in these decades, embracing as it did fawning portraits of Mussolini, aeropittura (of which much more needs to be said here), religious painting, ceramics, commercial art, industrial design and architecture. Gunther Berghaus, a world expert on Futurism, says that the huge amount of Futurist art in this period has not been researched yet; it suffered from neglect and ostracism in the post-war years and academics have only developed a serious interest in it in the last 20 years.

When more has been done on this section, the section on "Cultural context", which is obviously a student essay, ought to be deleted. Marshall46 (talk) 10:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I have added a section on aeropittura. Marshall46 (talk) 02:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural context

anyone like the insertion, or should i remove. i wrote it myself.FKSC 01:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

  • It's either OR or an essay or an essay or an essay. See WP:OR. --maf (talk-cont) 11:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • It's exhaustingly informative. Unfortunately, it's also completely unsourced. As WP:V states, "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." If you can't reference anything in the section you added to a reputable source, then the section may be removed from the article. TheLetterM 13:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

Should the external link "futurism summed up in one sentence" be in this article? According to what I now know about adding external links, I don't think it's releventMike Lawrence Turner 22:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Weasel words

Well, is the movement "regarded as" extinct, or is it extinct? Why the weasal words? "Regarded as" by whom?

The article is ambiguous in regard to the influence of futurism. Are the cited "influences" consciously felt by the contemporary filmmakers, etc, or is the writer of the article simply noting a similarity of thematic preoccupations?
"Powerful echoes" -- in what sense powerful? As in "substantially demonstrating a debt to futurism"? or as in "these contemporary works are really powerful" ? Let's lose that "powerful" unless someone can indicate a substantive reason for it.
It has no sense the name of Provinciali and Illari on the top of the article: they are less important names in the futurist storiography. Sorry, but the futurists was near to fascists; the anti-fascist wing was a very very very little part of them, not so representative as the article says. Actually, the interest about Futurism (1909-1944) is for their innovative, multimedial and spiritual approach to the idea of modernity. Trone 00:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvio

Also, the snippet about Illari is taken verbatim from this page http://www.futurism.org.uk/illari/illari.htm. --Giac 11:42, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

As stated by Giac above the following section is a copyright violation taken verbatim from another source and unreferenced. It is below. If someone wants to rewrite it so it is not a direct copy, it can be reinstated, but for now it is removed.
Tyrenius 12:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

REMOVED TEXT:

[edit] Pietro Illari

In his 20's Illari joined the Parma Socialist Party and worked on their paper L'idea. By about 1920 Pietro Illari was heading the Parma Futurist group that had been founded by the anarchist Renzo Provinciali. Illari steered the vision of the group from Anarcho-Futurism closer towards the Left wing and actively involved the group with the Arditi del Popolo.

In 1922 he joined the Italian Communist party and worked on their journals L'ordine Nuovo and Idea Communistra, becoming the Parma Party Secretary in a short space of time.

Illari had strong links with Marasco's Futurist group in Florence and was also in contact with the Anarcho-Futurists in La Spezia who were all militant anti-Fascists, very critical of Marinetti and violently opposed to the pro-Fascist element within Futurism headed by the Mario Carli / Emilio Settimelli faction. He was in contact with the Communist-Futurist Franco Rampa Rossi who collaborated on his periodical Rovente, a journal that, while inherently Left wing and anti-Fascist, was also in violent opposition to the "official" political line of mainstream Marinettian Futurism.

However, in June 1922 he quit the Communist party for unknown reasons but possibly because the Communist Central Committee forced him to choose between Communism and Futurism. Illari, under no illusion that he could survive either artistically or politically under a Fascist government, emigrated to Argentina in 1924 where he taught children of Italian immigrants.

END OF REMOVED TEXT

[edit] Dada, Influence, and Legacy

I call for removal of futurism as an influnce on Dada. The Dadaists hated the Futurists, because Dada was aligned with pacifism, whilfe Futurism was aligned with Fascism. --128.205.122.73 20:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Just because one hates something doesn't mean one isn't influenced by it, one may be influenced possibly more so. Hyacinth 04:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Just a note: It isn't quite correct to say that Futurism was aligned with Fascism - Mayakovski, for example, was a futurist and a Communist, not a Fascist. The non-Fascist Futurists were rare, but they did exist. -Smahoney 05:06, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
They were not rare. Most Russian Futurists were left-wing revolutionaries and in the beginning of the Leninist era, Russian Futurism was quite fine with the authorities. Many other Italian Futurists started out as anarchists, although most quicky turned into Fascists... as for Dada, they were pacifists as in "anti-war", but culturally Dada was an extremely violent movement, what with attempting to destroy all previous culture (doesn't this sound like Futurism?), etc...
This is a complex, multi-faceted issue. The political leanings of both movements were quite fractured. Regardless, there was an UNDENIABLE influence of futurism on dada, so i say it stays in the article. Zmbe 19:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fascism

oh yeah, so that reminds me...the fact that this article has nothing about Futurist alignment with Italian fascism is appalingly POV. --128.205.122.73 20:52, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe not POV, but it is appalingly lacking. -Smahoney 05:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Few of the founders of Futurist painting had anything to do with its later support for Fascism. Boccioni died in 1916, Carrà and Severini abandoned Futurism after the First World War. It was Marinetti who revived the movement and merged his Futurist Party (founded 1919) into the Fascist Party. With characteristic arrogance, Marinetti said that it was he who had converted Mussolini to Futurism, but the relationship was unequal. Marinetti was considered unreliable and was spied on more by the Fascist police than by the police in pre-Fascist Italy. Mussolini embraced some of the art of Secondo Futurismo but in architecture he turned to Roman classicism. Marinetti lamented the failure of Fascism to attack bourgeois values but was willing to be elected to the Italian Academy against all Futurist principles. After the Lateran Treaty of 1929 there emerged the odd phenomenon of a Futurist religious art, but despite its vapid and second-rate paintings it was condemned by the Vatican. When I have time I'll work this into the article, which is still pretty thin. - Marshall46 17:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opening sentence

The opening sentence currently reads "Futurism was a 20th century art movement, not to be confused with Futurist - trend watching." The link to Futurist goes to a disambig page. This sentence is both ungrammatical and unclear; could someone who understands what Futurism is not supposed to be confused with please correct it? --Trevor Burnham 05:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Busoni

It is stated that some people regard Busoni's Entwurf einer neuen Ästhetik der Tonkunst as the true starting point of Futurism. I have never come across that view and everything I have read traces its origin to Marinetti's Futurist Manifesto of 1909. This strikes me as a minority view at least, and a source should certainly be given for it. In any case, I don't think this document should be mentioned before the 1909 Manifesto. Marshall46 (talk) 22:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Hyacinth, for that edit and the source you gave. The article by Erik Levi in International Futurism in Arts and Literature is interesting, and Berghaus, the book’s editor, is a reliable source.
However, I propose to delete this passage because it is misleading: "the 1907 essay Entwurf einer neuen Ästhetik der Tonkunst (Sketch of a New Aesthetic of Music) by the Italian composer Ferruccio Busoni is the earliest call from a mainstream composer for a futurist aesthetic."
Levi says only that there are “tangible parallels between the Futurist aesthetic and that of some other mainstream composers” (p.331) When he says that Busoni is “an obvious starting point” he means that Busoni is a starting point in considering the parallels, not that Busoni was the starting point of Futurism, so there is no justification for giving such prominence to his Entwurf, and certainly none for mentioning it before the 1909 Futurist Manifesto.
Compare Daniele Lombardi in Futurism and Musical Notes, http://www.ubu.com/papers/lombardi.html ), who sees in Busoni’s 1907 article the seed of ideas later put forward by Futurist musicians. Lombardi goes on to say, “Busoni speaks of 'renewal' through a re-reading and synthesizing of the past. In contrast to Filippo Tommaso Marinetti's 'Let's destroy the museums and libraries,' Busoni believed in the importance of tradition . . ." Lombardi claims only that Busoni anticipated some of the ideas in Futurist music, not that he was a herald or precursor of Futurism. He says that Busoni did not want to attack tradition like the Futurists. Given Busoni’s belief in tradition and his lack of involvement in Futurist music, I don’t think he should even be mentioned. Marshall46 (talk) 11:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Italian and Russian Futurism

My longstanding impression is that the Italian and Russian movements were separate and had little, or nothing, in common beyond the "Futurist" label. Furthermore, my understanding is that Russian Futurism is also known (perhaps even better known) as Constructivism (art). I was not aware of the Russian Futurist literary movement, so I don't know if it is part of Constructivism or not, but did they really have any direct and ongoing involvement with the Italian movement? I think the Italian movement would precede the Russian movement by at least several years, but wouldn't it be better to refer to the Russian as a contemporaneous and stylistically similar movement? Right now the article (at least) implies that Italians and Russians were all behind the same movement, and I don't believe this is accurate. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Now I'd have to say I'm a bit confused. This and the Russian Futurism article describe the latter as a literary movement, yet it displays paintings by Lissitzky and Goncharova. The Goncharova painting is definitely similar to Italian Futurism; Lissitzky is not otherwise mentioned in Russian Futurism and his own article only mentions "futurism" in the context of a (Russian) opera. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Marinetti visited Russia as part of his propaganda for Futurism and a Russian Futurist movement emerged, so there was undoubtedly a Russian debt to Italian Futurism. However, the Russians followed their own course because Marinetti typically abused Russian traditions and because Russian conditions (with a vast peasantry) were different from conditions in industrial Milan, the centre of Italian Futurism. So, yes, the Italian and Russian movements were separate. - Marshall46 17:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I have removed this sentence from the opening paragraph: "Few futurist works came into existence because of the repression of Russia at that time, so these manifestos still remain on paper," because (1) many Futurist works came into existence, even in Russia, (2) the repression in Russia had no effect in Italy and other countries, (3) it is not clear whether the editor meant to refer to Tsarist repression or Bolshevik repression, and (4) no source is given. Marshall46 (talk) 23:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism of this article

Someone has vandalised the first paragraph of this article which now reads: "WHOAH ,, by: jeff pie!!!!!!!!!!!! was a 20th century art movement. Although a nascent Futurism can be seen in the ocean of the african jungles of asia, the art work is truthfully formated throughout canadian and chinese literature. it has a thin line going threw it and can be seen from hill tops. people with large noses do not like this particular type of artwork because it is brown throughout the very early years of the twentieth century, the 1907 essay Entwurf einer neuen Ästhetik der Tonkunst (Sketch of a New Aesthetic of Music) by the Italian composer Ferruccio Busoni is sometimes claimed as its true jumping-off point. Futurism was a largely Italian and Russian movement although it also had adherents in other countries."

Perhaps someone could fix it?

Paul Eattheword 13:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean, as of this writing the article is fine, and has been since yesterday. The vandalism I reverted yesterday does not resemble what you've just described. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the edit by User:92.18.165.35 in Line 9: “Marinetti's impassioned immediately attracted the support of the young Milanese Umberto Boccioni, Carlo Carrà, and who wanted to extend Marinetti's ideas to the visual arts. (Russolo was also a composer . . .) “ because it made no sense. Marshall46 (talk) 10:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New to Wikipedia

I’m completely new to wikipedia, I publish articles relating to modern art movements and the art buying industry. I’d like to get involved with updating the modern art related pages that are on Wikipedia.

I’m not sure how it works, if I see something that is wrong, do I delete it or do I talk it over on the discussion sections?

There are internal links on the Futurism (art) page that shouldn’t be there: EI-P, Matozoo, Stray, Eugene Francos, Nicolaj Diulgheroff. Should I go ahead and delete them? Mike Lawrence Turner 16:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. I too like editing arts related articles. I don't know that there is one best way to approach editing. I look forward to seeing you out there in Wikipedia land. Bus stop 16:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

In the case of the changes you mention (I know nothing about any of these names), I think it would be good to put a note on the article's Talk page briefly explaining what you are about to do and why you are doing it. That way everyone is alerted to it, in case there are any objections. Bus stop 16:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the help guys. I deleted links to Matozoo, Stray, Eugene Francos, Nicolaj Diulgheroff as when clicked there wasn't a related article. EI-P on the other hand is a rapper, but I can't see how he is connected to futrist art so I have left the following message in the discussion area of 'EI-p': "There is currently a link from Futurism (art) to this page. The editors of the Futrism (art) page have been discussing whether there is any relevency. Please explain why there should be an in link from Futurism (art)? otherwise we will delete it regardless." Mike Lawrence Turner 09:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed "El-P, producer, rapper." I don't think he is a member of the Futurists. Bus stop 12:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Futurism / Music issues

Is it worth mentioning that Adam & the Ants' first album (when they were still part of the London punk scene) recorded a song that featured the names of prominent futurists?

Marinetti, Boccioni, Carrà Balla Palasechi!
Marinetti, Boccioni, Carrà Balla Palasechi!
Futurist -- Manifesto!
(full lyrics here)

I suspect that Ant & Marco just thought these were cool rhyming names, and knew almost nothing about Futurism. So maybe it shouldn't be mentioned here? (And who the heck is Palasechi?) — Lawrence King (talk) 10:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I'm changing the title of this discussion section from 'futurist references in punk rock' to 'futurism / music issues.' Secondly, that pointless crap about sleepytime gorilla museum needs to go. it may belong on the SGM page but they are a footnote at most in musical history and do not need to be mentioned here. Anyone agree?Zmbe (talk) 02:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Italian painters

I have added to this. I removed the comparison between passéisme and Stuckism because it is misleading. Stuckism is a movement that explitly repudiates much of modern art, demonstrates against it and invented the word for itself. Passéisme was an insult invented by the Futurists to describe artists who were stuck in the past; it was not a movement. - Marshall46 19:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


The article is poorly written and formatted in places. The reference to utilitarianism sounds dubious too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boonk (talk • contribs) 03:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contemporary Artists

I saw that someone took of Natasha Vita-More. I hope you don't mind, but I put her back on since her theory concerns futurism. Let's not remove artists for political or philosophical reasons when the artists are known futurists. I've been following her work for some time. Anyone has a problem with this, let's discuss. Videogamexx (talk) 20:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contested move request

The following request to move a page has been added to Wikipedia:Requested moves as an uncontroversial move, but this has been contested by one or more people. Any discussion on the issue should continue here. If a full request is not lodged within five days of this request being contested, the request will be removed from WP:RM. —Dekimasuよ! 08:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)