Talk:Fur

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[edit] Popularity

Hi Rosemary. Fur is in fact popular in cold countries, and it's an overstatement to say a majority of Canadians oppose fur.

We can see that fur is popular simply by noticing that it's still sold and people buy it, e.g. my mother and my aunts have fur coats. I think my aunts would object to being called "historical", but that's beside the point since my sister-in-law and a few cousins also have fur coats, so the popularity has crossed the generation gap. If I lived in Montreal instead of Tokyo, I'd probably wear a fur hat in January. You'll find similar fashion trends in Scandinavia, Russia, and even Mongolia.

Second, most Canadians do not oppose fur. There may well be a majority that favors humane treatment of animals and the protection of endangered species, but that does not mean that a majority actively opposes fur. After all, I'd say at least 90% Canadians consume animal products each day either by eating meat or wearing leather.

Vincent Vfp15 02:05, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It is true that some people in Canada wear fur, but they are a small minority. I'll dig up some stats on the percentage of Canadians who believe killing animals for fur is wrong later—I need to get some sleep. Rosemary Amey 06:11, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Only as an example, this government survey shows that in 1992 a significant number of Canadians supported the seal hunt for a variety of uses including fur. Granted, it's not a survey on the specific question of fur use, but it's probably indicative of the attitude Canadians have in general.
Also, while it may be true that only small minority of people own fur coats, that doesn't mean that people who don't own one oppose the owning of one. Only a small minority of people own a Ferrari, and I do not own one, but that does not imply that I oppose those who do. The Bay wouldn't be selling fur coats if there were no customers to buy them.
Finally we should keep NPOV. I personally find nothing wrong with wearing fur, but I did not eliminate the statement that there were those who did. Wikipedia is not a forum for championing causes, pro or con, yours or mine. Cheers, Vincent 07:49, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Possible copyright violation

I just removed the following txt becuse it exactly duplicates the text here. If you are the copyright holder or author of this text and can vouch for that fact, we can replace it on the main page.

Eighty-five percent of the fur industry’s skins come from animals living captive on fur factory farms. These farms can hold thousands of animals, and the practices used to farm them is remarkably uniform around the globe. As with other intensive-confinement animal farms, the methods used on fur factory farms are designed to maximize profits, always at the expense of the animals.
Painful and Short Lives
The most farmed fur-bearing animal is the mink, followed by the fox. Chinchillas, lynxes, and even hamsters are also farmed for their fur. Sixty-four percent of fur farms are in Northern Europe, 11 percent are in North America, and the rest are dispersed throughout the world, in countries such as Argentina and Russia. Mink farmers usually breed female minks once a year. There are about three or four surviving kits for each litter, and they are killed when they are about half a year old, depending on what country they are in, after the first hard freeze. Minks used for breeding are kept for four to five years. The animals—housed in unbearably small cages—live with fear, stress, disease, parasites, and other physical and psychological hardships, all for the sake of a global industry that makes billions of dollars annually.
To cut costs, fur farmers pack animals into small cages, preventing them from taking more than a few steps back and forth. This crowding and confinement is especially distressing to minks—solitary animals who may occupy as much as 2,500 acres of wetland habitat in the wild. The anguish of life in a cage leads minks to self-mutilate—biting at their skin, tails, and feet—and frantically pace and circle endlessly. Zoologists at Oxford University who studied captive minks found that despite generations of being bred for fur, minks have not been domesticated and suffer greatly in captivity, especially if they are not given the opportunity to swim. Foxes, raccoons, and other animals suffer equally and have been found to cannibalize each other as a reaction to their crowded confinement.
No federal humane slaughter law protects animals on fur factory farms, and killing methods are gruesome. Because fur farmers care only about preserving the quality of the fur, they use slaughter methods that keep the pelts intact but which can result in extreme suffering for the animals. Small animals may be crammed into boxes and poisoned with hot, unfiltered engine exhaust from a truck. Engine exhaust is not always lethal, and some animals wake up while being skinned. Larger animals have clamps or a rod applied to their mouths while rods are inserted into their anuses, and they are painfully electrocuted. Other animals are poisoned with strychnine, which suffocates them by paralyzing their muscles in painful rigid cramps. Gassing, decompression chambers, and neck-snapping are other common fur-farm slaughter methods.
Austria and the U.K. have banned fur factory farms, and the Netherlands began phasing out fox and chinchilla farming in April 1998. In the U.S., there are approximately 324 mink farms left, down from 1,027 in 1988.

We can't really replace it on the article either, because it's very opinionated. It's an essay, it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article. Rhobite 05:48, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

Well, not all of it. Elf | Talk 06:25, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It's standard-issue animal rights sensationalism, and there's no reason to believe that it describes typical conditions in the fur industry. Rhobite 06:27, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
Some of it, but material such as "The most farmed fur-bearing animal is the mink, followed by the fox. Chinchillas, lynxes, and even hamsters are also farmed for their fur. Sixty-four percent of fur farms are in Northern Europe, 11 percent are in North America, and the rest are dispersed throughout the world, in countries such as Argentina and Russia. Mink farmers usually breed female minks once a year. " is neither POV nor sensationalist, etc. Elf | Talk 20:52, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cut text not from copyrighted source

I originally submitted the text re: factory farming furs. It's not sensationalist, but accurate and sourced material from PETA's fur fact-sheet (which is not copyrighted, that's why it was found on other fur site). Can I resubmit it? I can delete any emotionally-laden words, but "painful" is really a truthful description when it comes to be electrocuted.

It's from PETA (here, as you say)--it's almost inherently POV. At a quick glance I don't see anything on their site that says the material is not copyrighted and is in the public domain. Can you provide some info to that effect? And certainly it needs to be edited to be NPOV, not PETA-POV. Thanks. Elf | Talk 18:43, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

As there certainly seems to be a POV dispute already going on here in the talk page, I added the template at the top. I know nothing about the fur industry, but I'm willing to bet the two English external links are biased and I don't read German.

How appropriate is external link on the horrors of fur farming in an article not about fur farming specifically but rather about fur in a broader context? AmyBeth 23:18:57, 2005-07-27 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbit image

I've added an image of a skinned rabbit to the page and would appreciate some comments on it. I feel the image is justified in terms of NPOV, because it illustrates the reality of removing skin from an animal. However, I'm worried about it aesthetically, because it's upsetting to look at (although not the worst I found, unfortunately: there are images online of animals who appear to have been skinned alive). There's often a fine line with images between being educative and gratuitous, and this one straddles that divide, so feedback would be appreciated. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:34, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

It is a gross picture; I noticed when it was added. But it certainly seems to be an accurate picture and is probably informative. I'm going to split fur farming off from the article on fur to attempt to move the touchy issue of animal rights away from the basic definition of what "fur" or "a fur" are. Elf | Talk 05:55, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I deleted it myself in the end, because I couldn't stand it any longer. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:04, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fur farming fork

I don't agree with creating fur farming to move the issues off this page. If this article dealt only with fur, it might not be so bad, but it deals with fur as clothing, and to make it NPOV, we have to mention how it becomes clothing. It's not just the methods that are controversial, as the article now states, but the fact of it. And it's not just fur farming: animals are trapped too. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:08, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

The main reason for moving it is that "fur" and "fur farm" are two separate entities or concepts that should each have their own encyclopedia articles. Instead, we had a huge article about fur farming when the title of the article is "fur". In fact, fur farming (not fur farm, my mistake) already existed and it's been overdue to move the material from here to there. The fact that there is controversy over fur farming doesn't mean that all the details have to be on the page about "fur" as well. (Any more than, for example, all the details about hitler's atrocities have to be on the page about his dog, Blondie.)
I see that there are 2 possible definitions for "fur"--the original meaning, which is the coat of an animal, and "fur", something that someone wears (e.g., see dictionary defn). Both of those meanings are addressed here at the moment, although I could see that fur (clothing) could be spawned as a separate article. And even for that one, details about fur farming wouldn't go on that page, because it's addressed under fur farming, (e.g., any more than details about trapping would go on that page), although info about the controversy over wearing fur and a summary of why there's a controversy would certainly belong there.
Make sense? Elf | Talk 01:35, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to have been slow to respond, Elf, but I didn't see your reply. I see what you're saying, but there's a sense in which you're suggesting we should have POV forks. If this page were very long I could see it, but it isn't, and omitting the facts about how fur as clothing is procured would be POV. However, I take your point about fur and fur (clothing) perhaps needing to be separated. But would that leave this article too short, I wonder? SlimVirgin (talk) 01:08, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
This is challenging. I went to the What links here list, and there are a dang huge lot of articles that link to fur. Many simply refer to an animal's fur. Many refer to what would be fur (clothing). But there's that gray area in the middle. For example, in the otter article, the first two occurrences of the word "fur", simply referring to the animal's coat, are NOT linked, but it IS linked when it's mentioned that it was "trapped for fur", which is an interesting tidbit of linking info. I just don't see that someone reading that dinosours did or didn't have fur, or that a dog's coat is its fur, or that rubbing fur on something makes static electricity, or that cats lick their fur, furinstance, is expecting an article about fur clothing or the controvery surrounding it. But that gray area bothers me somewhat needs a clean way to accomodate that--where would we point those links? Based on the number of links to it, this is a semi-important article, so I don't want to be sloppy about it. So I'm going to go away and stew on this a bit. (BTW, I don't think that a short article is a problem--there are lots of 'em here, and if it's "too" short, that's what stubs are for. :-) ) Elf | Talk 01:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
By all means, take some time to think about it. I'd have no problem splitting them into Fur and Fur (clothing). SlimVirgin (talk) 01:49, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] To merge carotting here

Support Donama 05:49, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fish-fur

'Fish-fur' is a slang term used in the Russian Army for the fake fur often used on winter clothing and the ubiquitous ushanka hats. So-named because it does not come from any recognisable animal, artificial fur is often a by-product of the petrochemical process. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.194.98.246 (talk) 01:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Animal protest industry"

"Animal protest industry" is a neologism that I've only seen one person use. It is obviously highly POV. -Will Beback · † · 21:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to second this. The implication of "animal protest industry" is that the only people who protest the use of fur are people who are just trying to make money through the (cynical) use of appealing to people opposed to animal cruelty. - Xwwxw

I'm baffled by how one could find fault with the term "animal protest industry".

It refers to organizations who focus on a single narrow issue (animals & cruelty) and whose only final product is protest as opposed to orgs that have a more holistic and inclusive agenda. It also acknowledges protest as both product and revenue generator.

I've seen the term in a number of reports over the years and it seems to me to be the one that fits the best. I am very open to suggestions for other terms that might make the same important distinctions if others find them more fitting. I've read a few more but none that spring to mind immediately. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by EuroTrash (talk • contribs).

Unless you can find reliable sources using the term in context it doesn't belong. Please stop adding it to Wikipedia articles. -Will Beback · † · 21:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The term "animal protest industry" implies that animal rights activists are motivated by money or are being insincere and conniving. "Animal rights activists" or "animal rights advocates" both seem OK to me. "Activists" seems slightly more neutral - I'd support that change. Rhobite 01:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
As someone who has organized a number of protests, I can tell you that they cost money, they don't make money. Anyone who gets involved in organizing animal rights protests for money will be quickly disappointed. The vast majority of protest participants (and members of the animal rights movement in general) are volunteers (and donors), not paid employees. Rosemary Amey 05:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
FYI, the same editor is adding similar material to "Linda McCartney".[1] Input would be appreciated. -Will Beback · † · 21:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fur Clothing citations and references missing

The Fur Clothing section makes various assertions that are not referenced or cited. These assertions are not supported by text in the main article. The "citations missing" template has been added to flag these omissions. As examples:

  • "they view fur use as primarily cosmetic and therefore unacceptable"
  • "many furs fetching comparably higher prices at auction today than they did before the heyday of the protests in the 80s"
  • "it is still considered by many as a luxury item"
  • "World fur centers are those of Kastoria, Greece, Frankfurt, Germany, New York and China." -- although the (now) referenced articles for these places may make this assertion, I didn't find such evidence on scanning them.

Fuzzyeric 03:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Evolition

Can anybody please describe the origin of the fur?--Dojarca (talk) 17:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)