Talk:Fundamentalism

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The article would benefit from some actual referenced work from sociologists of religion, and could also tackle the problem of fundamentalism in relation to modernity and globalisation.

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[edit] All Religious Organizations Believe they Follow the Fundamentals of Their Religion

Synonyms of "fundamental" are "essential, basic, primary, important, and crucial". All religious organizations see themselves as following the most important, essential, basic and crucial aspects of their religion. If we define "fundamentalists" as people who accept their sacred texts literally, then we should be calling them "literalists". However, as the "Basic beliefs" section points out, there are no religions that take their scriptures to be entirely free of figurative or poetic language. Hence, if the two main interpretations of the term "fundamentalist" (which are essentialist and literalist) apply to everyone and no one, respectively, then the validity of the term itself must be called into question. The term "fundamentalist" has no objective meaning; it is simply an epithet that is used to refer to a religious person who, in the view of the writer, is taking a passage of scripture literally when they should not. This is why all definitions of the term have so far been inaccurate, inappropriate, and glossed over with weasel words.

-- I agree with the previous paragraph with the slight change: Religious Organizations may believe they follow the fundamentals of their religion, however, individuals that say they are a particular religion or faith may or may not be 'fundamentalists'--ie: they do not adhere to the beliefs to which they say they identify with. This distinction is important as I've heard the term 'Fundamentalist Christian' used and it sounds perjorative in the news media, however, it's really a compliment as it's saying that this individual is not a 'hypocrite' to their own beliefs--they actually follow what they say they believe. Davesdynamite (talk) 05:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How about we include the original def. in the history?

I suggest that we put the original definition of fundamentalism in either the history or the Christian views section and replace it with the definition of fundamentalism as applying to all religions. That would mean including the fact that the word has Christian origins, but expounding upon the specifics later. The following text should probably be kept at the top:

In its broadest usage in general terms, it denotes strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles; or, in the words of the American Heritage Dictionary: "a usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism."

I am opposed to this suggestion. It is being implied that there is widespread use of the word fundamentalism to describe groups and individuals for which the word Christianity is not appropriate. In the anecdotal evidence which I am aware of a qualifier like Islamic, Buddhist, or Non-theistic is always necessary to inform the reader that the writer is not talking about Christian Fundamentalism. In other words, the definition of Fundamentalism has not changed, and what these writers are saying is that it is like Christian Fundamentalism. There are at least two definitions one which is employed by people describing themselves i.e. “the original definition,” and a secondary definition which is used as an insult. I feel strongly we should not imply that the insult is the more common or the broadest definition without evidence. Scholarly dictionaries, unlike American Heritage Dictionary [citation needed], list definitions in the order in which they came into use which I believe is a fair treatment for this article unless someone can provide quantitative evidence that one definition is more common then another.--Riferimento 11:49, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree the current introduction is inaccurate and misleading; however the original definition is inadequate and doesn't encompass some of common usage or meanings. To do it justice the introduction should in my opinion point out that:

  • firstly, the term has differing meanings and is controversial;
  • it can be used in many circumstances but typically has religious connotations;
  • the term originates from the christian movement, specifically US protestantism and the early 20th century split in the presbyterian church.
  • Common usage now relates to both christian and islamic fundamentalism, and religious fundamentalism in general is considered a global phenomenon.
  • Recent definitions of fundamentalism tend to equate it to a mindset that is both principled and passionate yet unlikely to be altered by any external arguments or contradictory evidence.
  • The term may be used pejoratively and may be considered offensive to certain groups.

If anyone feels these are reasonable points to include I will wrtie the introduction including the citations and NPOV. simonthebold 15:19, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weaselly writing in many places :-(

There are a large number of "Some say that...", "Most foo believe...", "A possible criticism is..." statements, with which of course anyone with more than 10 edits to Wikipedia is probably already familiar. ;-) I tagged some of the ones that "leapt up at me" the most, and I see someone else has been busy too; the Non-theistic fundamentalism section in particular has a whole mess of [who said this?] tags (about one per sentence, actually — tagging the paragraph might have been easier!). I tried to tag statements from both sides of the argument for balance (since I frankly couldn't care less who "wins" the article).

It seems possible that the external links might, if of reliable-source quality, meet some of these needs; some of the other ones seem like a product of "back-and-forth" argumentative editing and should probably be refactored. I'll refrain from taking too active an interest since, in addition to being a yellow-bellied coward who steers away from controversial articles, I'm a fundie myself.;-) I hope I helped a little! --tiny plastic Grey Knight ⊖ 13:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Eh heh heh heh... the problem now is, how to get rid of them? You labeled 36 phrases as in need of citations. ...I would think it better if you had actually checked the references to see whether or not the material was there, before actually requesting a citation. That's kinda lazy.
I'm not mocking your effort, only saying that it's much easier to challenge than to meet a challenge. (and far less time consuming.) Tcaudilllg (talk) 12:27, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Tcaudilllg, everywhere you go you're making personal attacks on people for their efforts please stop. I don't think it was quite within your right to be calling someone lazy. They didn't have to do anything at all to fix the mess. Instead of saying "why don't you do the work yourself?" every time, why don't you actually do some. For some people tagging the statements in question is all they have the time or interest for. Please respect that.--Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk|@ 04:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What Do You Do When the Scholars Disagree?

The fact is that there is not a commonly agreed-upon definition of fundamentalism. As a historian of American Fundamentalism, I think it's absolutely inappropriate to apply the tag "fundamentalist" to a class of unrelated movements in different religions and cultures. Many sociologists are going to feel just as strongly that fundamentalism is a totally appropriate term to describe what they identify as a single global phenomenon. The way you define fundamentalism (general vs particular) has as much to do with your field of study as any particular bias.

I don't know how this might be handled. The article, as written, describes the origin of the historical fundamentalist movement, and it's a good start. It might be reasonable to talk about how the term came to be applied to Muslims and then to other groups.

There's already an article on Christian fundamentalism which covers much of the same ground. I think that the best approach to this article would be to prepare a general summary of the usage of the word fundamentalism, noting that it was, for most of its history, applied only to Protestant Christians and has relatively recently come to be applied to non-Protestant groups. Atterlep 23:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Honestly when multiple sources of roughly equal credibility and notability disagree, its generally prudent to include all the notable views, pointing out where they came from. In most cases I think you'll find there is a traditionally accepted definition that the majority holds while certain, generally smaller but still notable, groups oppose it. The most successful approach I've seen to that situation defines the subject in terms of the mainstream position, and then points out the differences between multiple parties. Fascism is a pretty good example of this (or at least it was. Its been a while since I've edited the article so I'm not sure if its been altered heavily).--Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk|@ 15:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Thoughts for inclusion in the Atheist Fundamentalism Section

Is it worth mentioning the responses to "The God Delusion" in this section? Some Christians seem to be attaching the label atheist fundamentalist to Richard Dawkins (particularly to this last work). See, for example, "The Dawkins Delusion?: Atheist Fundamentalism and the Denial of the Divine" by Alister and Joanna Collicutt McGrath. Also, Dawkins' response to some of this in the Times http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article1779771.ece 163.1.181.208 (talk) 08:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion it is probably worth a singlesentence addition to the Atheistic fundamentalism section, but not more. -- Q Chris (talk) 08:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It is fair to say both religious believers and Atheists can be passionate about their point of view. However the way they express their view of the other, may reveal the answer to whether atheists are fundamentalists or not. A Religious believer's description of a non believer. You may know the phrase; "Oh ye of little faith". I have heard it numerous times; normally used in a derogatory fashion in an attempt to make me feel inadequate. As if something was missing. Of course the statement is indeed correct. The Atheist is of little faith. An atheist's view is, although not so well known metaphorically ; "Oh ye of little reason" when referring to faith believers. I wonder to what extent faith believers accept that tag? I would expect that the majority of Atheists would claim that their view is one based on evidence or lack thereof. Perhaps other Atheists' views tend towards philosophy more than classical science. The result is still an Atheist's view can be changed with supporting evidence or reasoning. A reason based and not faith based belief. I see the term "Atheist Fundamentalist" more as an attempt to discredit rather than accurately describe them. Technically speaking the majority of Atheists are not "Fundamentalists". They are reasoners who are at times passionate and base their view on current scientific evidence or philosophical argument. Soadyp (talk) 12:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arguments in Favour

Does anyone else think that the arguments in favour section is a bit small and that it misses the point. I always THOUGHT that the main argument in favour of fundamentalism was that either the bible/Torah/Koran et al were the word do God and so perfectly correct and the only option was fundamentalism or they were not the word of god so why bother at all? Sort of if its worth believing then its worth believing right. As well as that anything less than fundamentalism means that the religion will change with social trends and that means that it is no longer the ultimate truth but rather today’s ultimate truth, will change tomorrow.

I have not found any references for the above yet, if people agree then I will have a look and think about a re write. If I am being stupid please say so.

John

CaptinJohn (talk) 15:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


Fundamentalism is hardly amenable to "argument". You are a fundamentalist because you cannot help being one. Proffering "arguments" for or against would be much like proffering arguments for or against a tune stuck in your mind, a general morning grumpiness, or a dislike of jasmine flavour. There is really nothing rational about it, so there can also be no debate about whether it is "right" (unless you accept the axiom that a position needs to make sense rationally in order to be "right", in which case irrational positions like fundamentalism are necessarily "wrong"). dab (𒁳) 17:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to make an argument for fundamentalism being a rational position. When someone goes about trying to find who is guilty of a crime and he comes accross evidence that is so convincing that every other evidence that would lead one to think otherwise would pail in comparison to the proof of guilt that one would thereby be in the same position as a fundamentalist. If what happened with Jesus or Mohammed provided proof beyond a reasonable doubt then the commitment to follow the principals and to be on biased on the side of it being truth (and we are all biased, lets be honest)then the conclusion must be that the position is as rational as any other one would take.````alketamark22:13, 23 March 2008
If fundamentalist Islam or Christianity were presented as a case to a court of law, it would be summarily dismissed with prejudice and howls of derisive laughter. Groupthink (talk) 15:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
If you study logic long enough you will find that nothing can be proven without making assumptions. Those that laugh at others are unable to see their own blind trust in unproven beliefs about reality. If you are incapable of respecting the beliefs of others it is probably the result of a lack of knowledge and not the result of too much knowledge. I would love for you to show me any belief structure or idea that can be proven without some basis in blind faith. In other words, show me the court that laughs and I’ll show you a court of fools. --N0nr3s (talk) 02:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Apologies for the tangent, folks, this is supposed to be a discussion page about the article itself, not its topic, but I have to respond to this. I have studied logic, and I know that "nothing can be proven without making assumptions" is a misstatement and an exaggeration. Logic is founded on axioms, not assumptions, and there's a big difference between the two. Logical systems are founded upon as few simple axioms as possible, drawing conclusions from those axioms based on formal reasoning. Contrast this with belief systems, which arbitrarily base entire realities on myths and then justify their dogma with "blind faith". Don't be fooled by this Evangelism 101 talking point folks: Compare this and this to see for yourself that N0nr3s is making a specious argument. One final point: This court laughed, and they're hardly a court of fools. Groupthink (talk) 01:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Groupthink check out these definitions for axiom http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+axiom.--N0nr3s (talk) 03:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry if you're insulted, but attacking your argument is not the same thing as attacking you. People of faith like yourself cannot attempt to put faith on par with science and then hide behind the shield of "you're disrespecting our religion and thus us." Sorry, but the marketplace of ideas is free, unregulated, competitive and ruthless. As for your link to those definitions of axiom... your point is what exactly? If anything, you've proven my point: there's a big difference between something that's held to be self-evident and something that's accepted blindly. Again, contrast Euclidean geometry, which is based upon axioms such as the parallel postulate, against Scientology, which is based upon tales of Xenu the space alien, or Hinduism, which is based upon tales of Haranaman the Monkey God, or Christianity, which is based upon tales of Jesus the magician. Science deals with the rational and the physical, whereas religion deals with the mythical and the metaphysical. They are not comparable. Groupthink (talk) 06:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
First, the purpose of the link was to demonstrate that an axiom is an assumption and that the major difference that you alluded to does not exist. Second, I presented only one suggestion in this discussion, all the arguments that you responded too are arguments which you made for me. My suggestion is still the same, that you respect the views of other editors and do not imply that their beliefs are foolish. Stop behaving like a troll. I also, think you should heed your own advice and use this page to talk about the article. --N0nr3s (talk) 11:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Axiom: "A self-evident truth that requires no proof." Assumption: "The act of taking for granted or supposing." Example of an axiom: "Given a non-intersecting dot A and line B in a Euclidean plane, there is one and only one line parallel to B that intersects A." Example of an assumption: "There is one God – not many Gods, not no God – and said God knocked up a virgin 2000-some years ago." End of discussion. Groupthink (talk) 15:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

One thing you fail to qualify in your argument groupthink is that the case for Jesus is a historical matter. Historical matters have other criteria than those used in scientific experiments that can be proved in a labratory. In court cases, they look at witnesses, the character of the person, the things he has done and the motives as evidence that they have. In regards to the initial discussion about Dbauchman's comment about Fundamentalism being irrational, I'll add that if the proof for the crucifixion and the ressurection of Jesus is substantial, as may possibly be in a court case for something else today lets say, then a fair sentence should be comletely carried out unless the proofs can be overturned. This is not considered irrational in court of law so therefore should not be considered irrational in regards to the faith's for whom the word is used. If the proof is weak for what is considered adequate for trust in the reliability of a historical document or historical event then maybe a fundamentalist commitment could perhaps be considered irrational. I can definately sympathise with someone who feels that a fundamentalist who want to take over the world and kill all unbelievers as irrational. The rational, however, for fundamentalism is always based on whether or not the case for the divine origen of the faith at hand is adequately proven. Arguments for or against Christianity for example have been made for centuries and a fundamentalist can provide evidence that demands a verdict. The evidence leads one to makes a logical choice to follow based upon the evidence the self evident truth that need no proof. Do you know that there is more proof that Jesus was crucified than Napolean was defeated at Waterloo? Jesus himself was on trial for who he claimed to be and his court laughed at him and tore their clothes at the blashpemy. My point remains, however, that if the events for which fundamentalism exist are factual then it could not be irrational. Obviously arguing against it could be different and more passionate here for some because of the life committment that follows "a guilty verdict", thus the feeling of arguing against a tune stuck in your head that dbachman mentioned. There are however many fundamentalist who can argue with the same sound mind that one could argue for any other historical event..````alketamark —Preceding comment was added at 16:36, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

As any good lawyer knows, witness testimony is the most unreliable evidence that can be presented in court. But hey, I agree with you to a certain point: There's plenty of historical evidence that an Essian Rabbi from Nazareth named Yehoshua was crucified sometime around 36 CE. However, the rest of the story is mythological hearsay. Groupthink (talk) 18:37, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


-- FYI, the "Arguments in Favor" section was itself removed from the article on 4 February 2008 by User:Dbachmann with the comment "rm openly argumentative and 100% unsourced section. restore once provided with quotable references."

Text of this section follows:

Arguments in favor of fundamentalist positions
Fundamentalists claim both that they practice their religion as the first adherents did and that this is how religion should be practiced. In other words, a Christian ought to believe and practice as those who knew and followed Jesus during his time on earth. A Muslim ought to give the same consideration to the followers of Muhammad. Analogous arguments can be made for most systems of religious belief. Fundamentalists justify this belief on the idea that the founders of the world's religions said and did things that were not written down; in other words, their original disciples knew things that we don't. For fundamentalist Christians, this claim is justified by the Gospel of John, which ends with the statement "there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written." (John 21:25, NKJV) Further justification is adducted from the static or falling attendance of many liberal or reformed congregations, from the scandals that have struck, for example, the Roman Catholic church, and from the increasing difficulty of distinguishing between religiously liberal and avowedly secularist views on such matters as homosexuality, abortion and women's rights.

-- Writtenonsand (talk) 04:42, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The distinction that has been drawn between "axiom" and "assumption" is no longer as persuasive as has been suggested above. The classic formulation for an "axiom" is "self-evident truth," and Euclidean geometry is the classic example of the role of axioms. We've now seen well developed non-Euclidean geometries that are based on changing one of Euclid's axioms. (In particular, the fifth postulate that was appealed to above, in the form of Playfair's postulate, as an example of an axiom: "Given a non-intersecting dot A and line B in a Euclidean plane, there is one and only one line parallel to B that intersects A.") We've also looked at non-classical systems of logic that jettison one or more of the axioms of classical logic, such as the law of non-contradiction or law of the excluded middle. All of these principles were once considered "self-evident," but modern mathematics and mathematical logic have found that perfectly useful, self-consistent geometries and logical systems can be constructed assuming different sets of fundamental axioms. To get a sense of how this has changed current thinking about axioms, take a look at Axiom#Modern_development. Some core philosophical assumptions make more sense than others, and we should certainly all challenge our own thinking, but we're kidding ourselves if we don't think we're making any assumptions of our own. EastTN (talk) 15:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Fundamentals: Can we please clarify?

Could discussion of The Fundamentals (edited by Reuben Archer Torrey, funded(?) by Lyman and Milton Stewert) please be clarified and coordinated? I see various statements in Fundamentalism and The Fundamentals as to when these were published and what role the various participants played in their writing and publication. Thanks. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 04:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

:*Merge a huge chunk of this article where it duplicates or originates information relevant to Fundamentalist Christianity. This should have only a summary statement with "See also: Fundamentalist Christianity". This article should centre on and discuss general information on all forms of fundamentalism. --Faith (talk) 01:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Clarify: NB I said "huge chunk" of this article, not the entire article. Separate qualified fundamentalism articles should remain, but this article focuses too heavily on certain types (with no citations through most of it), when it should be more general to Fundamentalism itself. Faith (talk) 00:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC) Withdrawn. Most of the material was already on the other article. Faith (talk) 19:04, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Do not merge but do improve both articles so they compliment each other. If we do merge this article we will have to merge in Islamic fundamentalism and other religion-specific articles as well. By the way, I added the merger tag to Fundamentalist Christianity, it was left off when the merger was proposed and/or later removed. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 20:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Do not merge Right now we have two bad articles both marred by individuals trying to push their own beliefs on others. The real reason for two articles is that allows individual editors the freedom to push their own personal agenda on others without interference. That said it will not work to combine the two because no consensus could ever be reached. Those that oppose Fundamentalism have worked long and hard to tailor an article that implies that Fundamentalism is closed minded and evil by definition and they will not tolerate an objective article. How long do we leave up that horrible merge tag, one week, two weeks, or do we let if sit there indefinitely?--N0nr3s (talk) 23:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] (Re)moved from article

The following makes the article section far too long, chatters on with no substance, and is mostly OR. I'm moving it here for determination if any of it is worth salvaging. --Faith (talk) 18:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

In 1909, Lyman Stewart, founder of Biola University, and his brother Milton, anonymously funded the publication of a twelve-volume series of articles called The Fundamentals, [1] [2] published between 1910 and 1915, and distributed free of charge to a wide range of Christian teachers and leaders, "Compliments of Two Christian Laymen." These volumes were intended as a restatement of conservative Christian theological teachings, primarily in response to the growing influence of modernist, liberal theology in the Church. In 1917 these articles were republished in a revised, four volume set by Biola. The term "fundamentalism" is in part derived from these volumes. The Fundamentals, were authored by a broad range of denominations in North America and the United Kingdom in which various core doctrines and traditional teachings (all considered basic to the Christian Faith) were defended against any movement which appeared to undermine the authority of Bible, the Holy Scriptures. Examples of those considered unfriendly, having the disposition of an enemy, and even hostile, were: Catholicism, Socialism, Modern Philosophy, Atheism, Eddyism (Mary Baker Eddy - Christian Science), Mormonism, Spiritualism ("Channeling" etc.), and above all, "Liberal Theology"[3] (a movement which held a naturalistic interpretation of the doctrines of the faith, German higher criticism, and Darwinism). Almost immediately, however, the list of unfriendly movements became narrower and the “fundamentals” less specific. Some of the original defenders of The Fundamentals of Christianity began to dissent and re-organize into other denominations. In 1910, The General Assembly of the Northern Presbyterian Church affirmed several essential doctrines in the church regarded as under attack: The Inerrancy of Scripture, The Virgin Birth of Jesus, The Substitutionary Atonement of Christ, Christ’s bodily resurrection, and the Historicity of The Miracles.[citation needed] These were reaffirmed in 1916 and again in 1923. Another version put the Deity of Christ in place of the Virgin Birth. The term "fundamentalist" was perhaps first used in 1920 by Curtis Lee Laws in the Baptist Watchman-Examiner[citation needed][4], but it soon became widely accepted as a common term identifying anyone who believed in and actively defended the traditional doctrines of Christianity. For example, in the 1920s the Baptist John Roach Straton called his newspaper The Fundamentalist. The Presbyterian scholar J. Gresham Machen disliked the word and only hesitatingly accepted it to describe himself, because, he said, the name sounded like a new religion and not the same historic Christianity that the Church had always believed.[citation needed] Throughout the 1920s in the United States, the "fundamentalists" and "modernists" struggled against each other for control of the large northern denominations.[citation needed] Fundamentalists viewed this as nothing less than a struggle for true (i.e., historical) Christianity against a new naturalistic religion that had crept into the churches. In his book, Christianity and Liberalism (1923), Machen called the new naturalistic religion "Liberalism", but later followed the more popular fashion of referring to it as "Modernism".[citation needed] Even though people such as Harry Emerson Fosdick professed to be Christian, fundamentalists felt that he and other non-fundamentalists could not be regarded as fundamental because they denied the traditional formulations of the doctrines of Christianity and replaced them with modern naturalistic doctrinal statements.[citation needed] The issue was as much each side’s approach to theology in the context of history, as it was each side’s view of Christianity. Fundamentalists believed that the manner in which Christian doctrines had been already formulated were correct and that attempts to reformulate them in modernistic terms and naturalistic views were bound to be a perversion of the truth[citation needed]. Their position was that the fundamentals were unchanging because of the Biblical passage, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever," (Hebrews 13:8, KJB) which they interpreted to mean that the nature of Christianity should remain eternally unchanged. Church struggles occurred in the Methodist Episcopal Church, the Protestant Episcopal Church, and even in the Southern Presbyterian Church, but the grand battles were fought in the Northern Presbyterian and Northern Baptist denominations[citation needed]. Machen was the undisputed leader among Presbyterians, joined by Clarence E. Macartney. Baptists created the National Federation of the Fundamentalists of the Northern Baptists (1921), the Fundamentalist Fellowship (1921), and the Baptist Bible Union (1923) to lead the fight. The battles focused upon the seminaries, the mission boards, and the ordination of clergy. In many ways, however, the real strongholds of the Fundamentalists were the Southern Baptists and the countless new independent churches spread across America’s South and Midwest, as well as the East and West[citation needed].