Talk:Functionalism versus intentionalism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] Focus on the Holocaust

I feel that the article focuses far too much on the holocaust in comparison with the debate in academic literature (which is what the article is really about). For example, the opening paragraph defines the debate in terms of the Holocaust with reference to the overall intentions of the Nazi state. However, in most literature the debate surrounds the overall intentions of the Nazi state with special reference to the Holocaust (see Tim Mason's original article and other debates arising from the Cumberland Lodge Conference of May 1979). Indeed, by focusing on the Holocaust the article implicitly gives more emphasis to intentionalism (see Richard Bessell, Functionalists vs. Intentionalists: The Debate Twenty Years On or What Happened to Functionalism and Intentionalism, German Studies Review, 2003, 26(1):15-20). This also calls into question whether the article should be part of the Holocaust template. I will begin editing it soon in order to rectify this but please feel free to comment on here. I will also begin to address some of the referencing issues. Supernoodles (talk) 15:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, the article isn't really "part of" the Holocaust template. Those sorts of templates are typically in any article in which they're relevant. I think it's more helpful than disruptive here; as you say, the Holocaust has been a flashpoint of the debate. --zenohockey (talk) 23:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zygmunt Bauman

Doesn't Zygmunt Bauman fit as an functionalist? What do you think? --Julmust 23:15, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but I'm not all that familiar with his work on the Holocaust... anyone else? --zenohockey 04:17, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Okay, here's something: he apparently attributed "the Nazi Holocaust to a generic modernity..." (Ian Varcoe, "Zygmunt Bauman," in Elliot & Ray (eds.), Key Contemporary Social Theorists, Blackwell, 2002). The book in question is Bauman's 1989 work Modernity and the Holocaust (Polity/Cornell UP), which neither I nor my college library has, and according to Amazon is out of print. Here's the publisher's description. --zenohockey 04:27, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Bauman is a functionalist. At least that's how Yehuda Bauer in his book Rethinking the Holocaust describes him. Most of what I about Bauman comes from Bauer's book, so I am not really a expert. A.S. Brown 07:20, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the terms Functionalism and Intentionalism

I find the two terms puzzling, having never heard of this debate before. "Intentionalism" I can understand, but I can't quite see why the other side is called "Functionalism". In the interest of clarity, could a brief explanation of the origin of the term be inserted? Bathrobe 06:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if this is helpful at all, but I believe I have heard the term "structuralism" used instead. Fish. (talk) 12:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Structuralism and functionalism are both used. As the article says, the term was coined by Tim Mason in 1981 following the Cumberland Conference.Supernoodles (talk) 15:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The terms "functionalism" and "intentionalism" are all-lowercase

The Manual of Style (capital letters) states, regarding "Religions, deities, philosophies, doctrines and their adherents" (my emphasis), that "doctrines […] do not begin with a capital letter, unless the name derives from a proper noun". This means that the terms functionalism/ist and intentionalism/ist should begin with a lowercase f or i, not with a capital F or I. --Bwiki 21:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relation of this debate to strong/weak dictator debate

In the intro it is stated that: 'A separate, but closely linked, debate concerns the nature of Hitler's power. On one side, there is the "weak dictator" thesis championed by Mommsen and Broszat, and on the other the "Master of the Third Reich" thesis championed by Bracher. If Hitler was a "weak dictator", then this would support the functionalist case, whereas if Hitler was the "Master of the Third Reich", this would support the intentionalist case.'

IMHO this is tendentious, and it is also uncited. Is this someone's OR? I'll remove it if it can't be sourced, as I don't think the two debates are that closely linked. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 10:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted this para. Anyone wishing to reinstate it should provide a cite. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 00:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
It is basically the same debate but in less comprehensive terms. I may incorporate some of this (with references) to the article.Supernoodles (talk) 15:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Neville"

I've removed the following paragraph from the "Synthesis" section (where it probably doesn't belong in any case):

Neville's view—"Two decisions were made [to kill the Jews]. One taken as early as March '41, when the decision was made to kill the Soviet Jews, and a later decision of September '41 when the decision was taken to kill all European Jews"—is a Functionalist view.

I haven't been able to identify either the source of the quote, nor who this Neville is. The edit summary from the anonymous editor suggests that it was a historian, though. --zenohockey 21:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

"Neville" referw to Peter Neville, and more specifically his work The Holocaust (CUP 1999) and the quote would seem to place him as either a moderate functionalist or in "Synthesis", however lacking the full text I can't judge which and thus am unsure whether to include it. --Gamma2delta 20:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arad

Which side of the debate does Yitzhak Arad fall on? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.210.248.112 (talk) 01:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Excellent article

considering the concepts it has to discuss, this article is excellent. maybe we should nominate it for something. Theglobeismyeye (talk) 10:53, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request

I'd like a few very specific references/quotes for the "synthesis" section, if anyone has any. Otherwise I'll have to re-examine the wording. Relata refero (talk) 14:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)