Talk:Fuchsine

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[edit] What is it made out of?

Can it please be added what it is made out of/exactly how it is produced? Badagnani 05:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources, etymology

I rewrote the section Magenta#History_of_magenta_dye recently, using some dictionary sources, which contradict the formula and etymology here. I am not sure on the chemistry (dictionary said C20 rather than C19), as I have only that one reliable source, and honestly don't know enough about the field to know if both might be right. I also don't know enough chemistry to check if and SMILE formula and diagram are in agreement with C19 or C20. Based on a cursory look, it seems that a 1913 Webster's dictionary gave the etymology here. Some other sources attribute it to Leonhart Fuchs. I think the company Renard (or Freres Renard?) bought or licensed rights to the dye (or a way of preparing the dye?) from another company, and it was already called fuchsine at that time (at least by 1860), but I don't know the inventor, and it may well be a person named Renard related to the company, or the Renard company. I'll try to find some other sources, though I'd be very out of my element on the chemical formula question. -Agyle 02:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

So far I've found a lot of contradictory information. :-) Even among what I'd consider reliable sources, especially modern ones, there are contradictions. I've not found any that convincingly support or refute either etymology, and the "inventor" seems a bit ambiguous, but I think Natanson was the inventor, and Renard Frères was the first commercial manufacturer. Consider this 1867 article:
"Shortly after Mr. Perkin's mauve was introduced to the trade. Messrs. Renard Frères, of Lyons, obtained from aniline another colour, since well known under the name of magenta. This colour, which was first observed by Mr. Natanson, in 1856, and produced by Dr. W. A. Hofmann, in 1857, was commercially made in 1859 by M. Verguin, and successfully introduced into commerce by Messrs. Renard Frères." (Btw I assume they meant A. W. Hofmann.)
But it doesn't say when Perkin's mauve was introduced to the trade. I think when they say Renard Frères obtained aniline from another color, they mean in 1859, after all the other research, but there is some ambiguity. I guess in the presence of multiple contradictory sources, with no clear evidence, the different facts should be presented, with an explanation of the different sources. I'll try to look into this more another time. Hopefully the chemical formula will have a clear right or wrong answer. :-) -Agyle 03:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
According to "Académie des sciences (France). Comptes rendus hebdomadaires des séances de l'Académie des sciences. 1860. (T. 50).", page 870, an article by Bechamp says "MM. Renard frères et Franc," patented and named the dye "fuchsine, rouge d'aniline" (fuchsine, aniline red) in 1859. Contemporaneous accounts, including an [http://books.google.com/books?pg=RA3-PA347&lpg=RA3-PA347&dq=roseine+fuchsine&source=web&sig=3ZzPC-IUshXCR79frTun3yNVOQ0&id=oKEEAAAAYAAJ&ots=B1-LmGtVMJ&output=text#PRA3-PA347,M1 1861 Chemical News account of a presentation by Perkins, supports the 1867 account. I think Renard's specific process for fuchsine production is what distinguishes it from the related red anilines previously discovered, so it may be proper to say Renard discovered fuchsine in that sense. (Verguin might be the individual discoverer, but I gather he teamed up with Renard around that time).
The 1861 article describe's Bechamp's fuchsine as C12H12N2O, and the hydrochlorate C12H12N2O·HCL. Maybe their analysis was wrong, or what's seeming more likely, is "fuchsine" was used to refer to a range of similar compounds at that time.
No facts I've seen contradict either proposed etymology yet; citing both still seems like a good approach. -Agyle 09:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced/refimprove templates

The unreferenced template was removed from the main article. I think its use is correct; unreferenced and refimprove (which I anticipate will be used next) are standard ways to categorize articles by reference need, and the categorization may be used in various useful ways. I will add the template here, as it still categorizes the article and may be less objectionable. See Template:Unreferenced or Template:Refimprove for information about the templates. -Agyle 17:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

 This article needs additional citations for verification.
Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (September 2007)

Changed from unreferenced to refimprove, after adding some reference on etymology. -Agyle 12:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chemical formula, molecular diagram, etc.

It seems that the molecular image is from a previous claim of fuchsine's molecular formula (c19h17... not c19h19), and I think the image was correct for the previous formula, not c19h19. I found sources that suggest fuchsine or rosaniline hydrochloride are C20H19N3·HCl, with rosaniline typically meaning just the base form of C20H19N3, but the terms seem to be used generally and specifically, so there's a family of rosanilines, and may be a variety of fuchsins or fuchsines. There are also a variety of molecular formulas for products all sold as "basic fuchsin." I don't understand the terminology that well, or the naming conventions in chemistry, and am not sure how to choose between the competing sources. If nobody else weighs in on this, or sources the current info, I'll try replacing the formulas/diagram/weights/cas etc. with C20H19N3·HCl, which is my best guess at the most common meaning, with a few sources. Better if done by an expert, though. -Agyle 20:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


  • it is confusing, my information after researching Schiff test is that fuchsine is the C20 compound (with the methyl group) and that rosaniline is the C19 compound (without the methyl group). On the other hand my CRC handbook gives me for the compound rosaniline C20H21N3O but where is oxygen atom coming from! V8rik 21:01, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Is the O is from mixing C20H19N3 with H2O? Here are some links I found:
this dtp.nci.nih.gov lists C20H19N3·HCl as Fuchsine
this acros.com lists C20H19N3·HCl as Fuchsin basic and Rosaniline chloride
this acros.com and this sigmaaldrich.com lists C19H17N3.HCl (or C19H18N3.Cl) as Basic Fuchsin, among other names.
Searching http://chem.sis.nlm.nih.gov/chemidplus/ for rosaniline turns up a "Fuchsin, basic", for which it says "Molecular Formula: C20-H19-N3.Cl-H, Molecular Formula Fragments: C20-H19-N3", and lists dozens of synonyms, including fuchsine, fuchsin, rosaniline, and rosaniline hydrochloride.
This old textbook says C19H19N3 is paraleucaniline, and C20H21N3 is leucaniline, which "result from the reduction of the corresponding trinito-compounds and also of the corresponding dyes, para-rosaniline and fuchsine...." The same page says pararosaniline is C19H19N3O (C19H17N3 with water?), and rosaniline is C20H21N30 (C20H19N3 with water?), which "are the bases of the fuchsine dyes." They are both listed in the "rosaniline group" and considered rosaniline dyes. It lists fuchsine itself as "C20H20N3Cl."
this material data safety sheet lists C20H19N3.HCl as Rosaniline hydrochloride, Fuchsine, Basic Fuchsin, Basic Fuchsine.
-Agyle 21:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
this noaa.gov entry for cameo chemicals lists C19H17N3.ClH as pararosaline or parafushcine, among many other synonyms. It seems like the C19s usually have "para" or "p" before the name, or "sp" after it, or something, though some sources list C19s just as basic fuchsin. -Agyle 21:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
This 2001 published journal article about using rosaniline hydrochloride to measure atmospheric sulfur dioxide says that rosaniline hydrochloride is C20-H19-N3.Cl-H, and para-rosaline (their italics) hydrochloride is C19-H17-N3.Cl-H. -Agyle 13:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)