Talk:Friedrich Martens

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It is claimed in this Encyclopaedia Britannica article that Martens was awarded Nobel Prize 1902. That is actually not true. As Estonian writer Jaan Kross explains in his novel 'Professor Martens' departure': Storting Nobel comitte had a session at the end of October. Some 4 or 5 candidates were under conideration: Switzerland's Ducommun and Gobat, Englishman Cremer, Norwegian or Danish Bajer and I [that is F.F. de Martens]. Ducommun and Gabet were excluded with simple argumentation: half of the prize had gone to Switzerland the year before. Switzerland doesn't have a monopoly of the prize! Sir Randal Cremer as a former carpenter and a figure of the labour movement seemed may-be a bit too radical for some gentlemen. Bajer had too many cons as their own man. Then my candidature was discussed. Of course they remembered good impressions from the first Hague conference. Those impressions were only 3 years old.[...] But of course some gentlemen expressed the traditional opinion that it's dubious if Russia is a suitable country for a peace prize. The committe postponed the final decision but my name was leaved on air, so to say. [...] I can imagine an Aftenposten editor-in-chief appearing near the table of comittee members after the bottles were cracked. May-be I was mentioned only as a candidate. But the journalists are often untimely guys. [...] My name was printed in Christiania newspapers the next day. Not as candidate but as a prize-winner. May-be it was denounced the next day, may-be not. The comittee read that announcement and may-be even demanded its denunciation. And in the next session it still awarded (I don't know if it was because of fright or self-spite) the two Swiss. Ducommun and Gobat. But the newspaper announcement of awarding me remained in all the major libraries. And met me after a while in somewhere else on the earth in a rather respectable form. (J.Kross 'Professor Martensi ärasõit', p 99-100; my free translation from Estonian)

Contents

[edit] Nationality

I just wanted to point out that Fyodor Fyodorovich was a descendant of a German family living in Estonia; Neither he nor his descendants are ethnically estonian. Jan Kross argues the Estonian viewpoint out of personal and nationalistic motives. This viewpoint is not in fact true.

Source: Mary Konstantinovna Martens, my great-aunt, grand niece of Fyodor Fyodorovich Martens.--Martens

Thanks for the note. It is rather correct that FM was raised a German-speaker, and would have not considered himself an ethnic Estonian. In fact, a large number of people in 19th century Estonia did the same, i.e. "became, and raised their children as, Germans" along with the improvement of their social status. These first- or second-generation Germans later often tended to forget, or sometimes even denied their lower class (i.e., ethnic Estonian) ancestry. However, all this (and literary endeavours of Jaan Kross) does not change the well documented fact that FM's birthparents in Pernau were lower class ethnic Estonians.--3 Löwi 07:23, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Where is this fact well documented other than Jaan Kross? The Martens have always considered themselves German, however, as you well point out, this could be the case whether or not it was actually true. Nonetheless, Martens is a German last name, not Estonian. Also, in their passports, the Martens were all documented as Germans, and i am not sure how easy it was to change your official nationality, considering that it was a determining factor of how you were treated in the Russian Empire and Soviet Union. Please give me a source that does not refer to Jaan Kross that says he was born to lower class Estonians.--Martens

On June 8 (21), 1909, the day following F. Martens’ death, leading Estonian daily “Päewaleht” of Tallinn wrote the following on its page 3: Prof. Martens surnud. Walga jaamas suri 7. juunil endine Peterburi ülikooli rahwuswahelise õiguse professor Martens (sündimise poolest eestlane) ära. Raw literary translation: “Prof. Martens dead. At Valga station has on 7 June former St. Petersburg University’s international law professor Martens (by birth an Estonian) died.” On the same day, another daily, “Postimees” of Tartu reports essentially the same on its page 3, adding that Kadunu oli rahwuse poolest eestlane i.e., The deceased was Estonian by nationality.

Image:Martens Postimees 1909.JPG
“Postimees” of Tartu reports on 8 June 1909 (OS) that Prof. Martens has died in Valga on previous day and that the deceased was an ethnic Estonian

Both of these newspaper issues can be viewed in the online database at http://dea.nlib.ee/index.php – just type 08 06 1909 in the first date field and click on Otsi (Search) button. Note that the Estonian-language word eestlane unambiguously means “ethnic Estonian” (i.e., it does not mean someone who was just born in Estonia, or just resides in Estonia), the word rahwus (rahvus) means nationality as ethnicity, not nationality as citizenship (there was no Estonian state, or citizenship thereof, in 1909, anyway). What this means is that professor Martens was considered an ethnic Estonian, not an ethnic German, by contemporary Estonian press, who had no reason to falsify Martens’ ethnic origin, or to insult his family by doing so.

Contrary to your assumption, Martens is actually a rather typical Estonian surname (a simple Google search or look into Estonian phone book would suffice to show that). A quick look in an online database http://www.history.ee/ono/otsing19.html (type in “Martens” in the search field) indicates that in the beginning of the 19th century the first-time surname Martens was assigned on 18 different occasions to lower class Estonian individuals/families who had no surname on the record before this. It seems that it is now your burden of proof (needing more than hearsay from living relatives) to show that Martens and his parents (e.g., his father who was a tailor by profession) were Germans, and not Estonians, as has been reported many times over in Estonian press both lately and back then. Cheers, --3 Löwi 21:35, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Martens were German

The Martens family was definitely ethnically German, however Jaan Kross has popularized the notion that he was ethnically estonian and estonian nationalists have accepted it. Sources from estonia are urneliable as they are likely to be biased, but unfortunately nothing else seems to exist. All living descendants of Martens insist the family was German, and it must be noted that all the names of Friedrich and his brothers were german rather than estonian.

Does anyone have any Martens documents that will conclusively prove he was German? Using Estonian sources to prove he was estonian is like using Soviet sources to prove that peasants loved collectivization - they are unreliable because of unquestionable presence of bias.

Martens was not German. I removed your unsourced change and restored the source pre-dating even the birth of Jaan Kross. Please do not change the article unless you have any kind of source showing that he was a German - do not mix him up with Georg Friedrich von Martens, who was also an international lawyer and definitely German. 88.196.132.190 (talk) 13:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are definitely confusing the Estonian Friedrich Martens with the German Georg Friedrich von Martens. Martintg (talk) 21:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

No I am definitely not. I think my family would know who it is descended from (as well as where they come from originally). The problem is that people at the time didn't save little horse carriage tokens and whatnot from cities they moved away from to prove they were Germans a hundred years later. At his death, yes, all the estonian newspapers wrote that he was estonian, and this absolutely doesn't prove that he was. Estonian nationalist movement was gainign steam at the moment and they used the death of a famous person to advance their cause. Pustogarov, in his books, notes that there is no consensus on the matter (with the Germans believing him german and the estonians estonian), but that the family DOES claim it is german. The Von Martens archives in Finland have some documents about Friedrich Martens' parents and grandparents that say he came from Germany and this is the closest to reliable evidence you can get.Martens (talk) 16:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, Julius Martens was Friedrich Martens close relative, no relation to Georg von Martens. Whoever said that hasn't done their research.Martens (talk) 16:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Self published sources are not acceptable as reliable sources for Wikipedia. Martintg (talk) 20:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
For what its worth, both Estonian Soviet Encyclopedia 1973 (vol 5) and Estonian Encyclopedia 1990 (vol 5) say he was a Russian diplomat of an ethnic Estonian origin. Oth (talk) 13:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Soviets were (1) not extremely concerned with intricacies of person's ethnic origin if it did not influence person's career (Baltic German nationalist would be listed as Baltic German, but both Estonian and German from Estonia would be likely listed as "originated from Estonia") and (2) not fond of promoting the German contribution in Russian history. Besides, they relied on Imperial data and Empire did not distinguish between ethnicities, it distinguished religious creeds. All Lutheran Protestants born in Estonia were considered one group by official statistics, be they ethnic German, Swedes, Estonians or mutts. So Soviet Encyclopedia is probably of little value in this particular disagreement between true Estonian patriots and Rest Of World :) RJ CG (talk) 15:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
"Rest Of World" being in this case one probable descendant with COI? Nice going, RJ CG, keep the ethnic insults coming. 88.196.141.180 (talk) 18:43, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The Martens family was definitely ethnically German? Well, why don't you look at the picture. The high cheekbones and oval face don't look much like ethnically super-race Arian but more like a finnic-sami guy from Estonia or Finland.--98.212.196.116 (talk) 04:52, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ennoblement

Could it be that Martens started to add "von" to his last name after he reached certain position in the Russian service? According to Table of Ranks, one aquired hereditary nobility after reaching 4th grade. Martens's career seems to advance fast, so he could aquire 4th grade by mid-1870s. Books of Baltic orders are pretty irrelevant here, so shouldn't we remove all this ORish stuff? RJ CG (talk) 15:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, go ahead. 88.196.141.180 (talk) 18:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources on Martens's ethnicity

I want to comment on sources allegedly confirming Martens's ethnic origin. There are 4 sources:

  • Estonian Soviet Encyclopaedia. I commented on that source before. In short, it usually did not distinguish between Baltic Germans
  • Eesti Express (which calls him "Eestlane"). However, if my (extremely limited) knowledge of Estonian serves me well, it can be translated as both "Estonian" (ethnic) and "Estlander" (regional or national). More important, the same Eesti Express calls Fabian von Bellingshausen "Estonian explorer". IMHO this pretty much kills it's value as being WP:RS, as far as distinction between ethnic Estonians and Baltic Germans from Estonia is concerned.
  • Article in Postimees from the Estonian Age of Awakening. Article is not avaliable online (at least it timed out for me).
  • Book "Our Martens: F.F. Martens, International Lawyer and Architect of Peace". However, I had been unable to find anything in the book confirming Martens's "Estonianess", so to speak. After repeatedly claims that contemporaries of Martens had little interest in the details of his childhood (see Page 10, for example). However, the book does give an important clue. Martens called himself "Friedrich-Fromholz" or "Fromholz" in different early documents (petitions in the Tsar's anme, application to uni and so on). According to this and my own memories, Estonian language does not have sounds "D" or "Z", so it does not seem likely that ethnic Estonian would be named Friedrich-Fromholz".

So, out of 4 sources one explicitly refuses to discuss details of MArtens's early years, another does not care about difference between Baltic Germans and Estonians, another one calls Baltic German "Estonian explorer" and last one isn't available. I would say that factual base looks extremely flimsy to me and would recommend to drop ethnic connotation from the article. RJ CG (talk) 15:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

So, by his name there is no proof whatsoever that he was not an Estonian - even the suggestion is rather silly.
  • Also, you grossly misrepresent Eesti Ekspress article ([1]). It says "Eestis sündinud meresõitjad" - "sailors born in Estonia" about Fabian von Bellingshausen and Adam Johann von Krusenstern . The article makes a clear distiction between "born in Estonia" and "Estonian".
  • Old Postimees source opens fine for me. Direct link to scan: [2]. Unavailability of the source for you is not a valid reason to dismiss it.
  • Strangely, you are so quick to dismiss Soviet sources - in this case Estonian Soviet Encyclopedia - when you don't agree with them. Why is that? According to consensus in Wikipedia, Soviet sources are acceptable, but should be treated carefully when other sources contradict them. So, what source does contradict this information?
Some more links:
  • [3]: "was a famous Estonian born international lawyer"
  • [4]: "done by an ethnic Estonian, and diplomat Friedrich Martens"
  • [5]: "In many other universities and research institutes in Russia there were also quite a few Estonian professors employed (e.g. Friedrich Martens, Johan Vilip, Gerhard Johannes Rägo, Ludvig Puusepp, Aleksander Rammul, Bernhard Schmidt)."
  • [6]: "he was Estonian by birth."
  • [7]: "Friedrich Martens, an Estonian diplomat and professor of law who"
  • [8]: "Estonian-born diplomat"
So... we have plenty of sources that call him an Estonian. I hope you won't dismiss sources this time because some of them are Estonian, that would be rather racist?
But the big question is - are there any valid sources that claim he was not an Estonian? So far we have seen none.

88.196.141.15 (talk) 16:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Several comments. (1) Calling Baltic Germans "eestlane" is very common in Estonian sources. See this, for example (although "eestimaalane" is much more common). So such claims have to be taken with grain of salt, especially as far as difference between ethnic Estonian and Estonia-born German is concerned. (2) I could be wrong on linguistic analysis, but Itching for Estimaa somewhat sides with me. (3) I did not discount Soviet Encyclopaedia completely, I just said it has it's own limitations and carefully explained why. No source is perfect, you know, even (I know, I'm stepping the border here) Mart Laar. (4) "Estonian born" does not equal "ethnic Estonian" to me. You would not call Russian-born Golda Meir ethnic Russian, would you? (5) I don't consider political propaganda from [[9]] reliable source. Then again, Martens could belong to Estonian ethnicity, after all, it's just there're no sources stating it without having vested interests in him being Estonian.RJ CG (talk) 18:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
(1) I guess you mean sentence "Võite väita, et Krusenstern ei olnud Eestlane"? This translates to "You can claim that Krusenstern was not an Estonian" - and the speach continues "Really, /.../ cannot consider him to be an Estonian" . So, no claims about Baltic Germans to be Estonians.
(2) Itching for Eestimaa is not written by an Estonian, it is written by an American who learns Estonian (and, for some reason, rather blindly hates Russians). Estonian language per se does not have "z", but names do. "D" is common in both names and everyday language.
(3) Agreed about encyclopedia.
(4) Etymologic and ethnic lawyering.
(5) vpk.ee is the site of the Estonian president, vp2001-2006 subsite is president's speaches. No propaganda there - president would be nailed before noon if he'd start to spew out silly propaganda. Estonians quite dislike it after being forced to survive fifty years of Soviet propaganda during occupation.
Overall, I think there won't be very many sources about Martens being an Estonian - because there just is no question about it. Other then probable relative with an agenda and no sources (Martens's archive is in St Petersburg, Russia ([10]), family archive might be in Finland - although I seriously doubt it), no one questions that Martens was an Estonian.
88.196.141.15 (talk) 05:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid RJ CG knows very little about Estonians and their ways. The idea that Calling Baltic Germans "eestlane" is very common in Estonian sources is as much off the mark as it can get. No Estonian or Estonian source would ever call Baltic Germans "eestlane". That's just against the logic of the language and the thinking ways of the people.--98.212.196.116 (talk) 05:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Another source

"Martens was of Estonian ethnic origin, an issue thoroughly researched recently in Estonia on the basis of complicated church and orphanage records." Richard B. Bilder & W. E. Butler, Professor Martens’ Departure by Jaan Kross, Book Review, American Journal of International Law (1994), No. 4, page 864

And then again, Estonian researchers have vested interest (especially in early 1990s, when newly created states scrambled to glorify their past) in proving him being Estonian. Having to deal with situation when for centuries every rich or educated Estonian daydreamed to be considered German or Swede and worked hard to achieve that goal, Estonia the state was well short of "great ancestors" to buttress national myths, so moot cases like Martens were actively called upon.
Then again, there's certain ironic twist that Estonian editors are trying to do their best to prove that talented ethnic Estonian worked his buns off to be considered German as late as 150 years ago...RJ CG (talk) 13:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
How did he "work his buns off to be considered German"? He used his given name, he never represented himself as German in any way, as far as any source shows. Wishful thinking once again, like we've seen great number of times in this discussion? I recommend avoiding articles related to ethnic matters in any way, RJ CG, as it is obvious you are extremely biased in this and not afraid to bend facts and sources to represent what you want them to show. 88.196.139.227 (talk) 16:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate your recommendation very much, but I would like to remind you that your personal feelings toward yours truly is of no value to Wikipedia. I would suggest you keep your phobias and name-calling to yourself. Thank you in advance, RJ CG (talk) 16:25, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
My phobias and name-calling? Unless you can back up your claim "Estonian researchers have vested interest (especially in early 1990s, when newly created states scrambled to glorify their past) in proving him being Estonian" with a solid source - minimum would be article in a well-known, peer-reviewed scientific magazine, I would call the comment racist - and same for its author. So, how about a source, RJ CG? Oh, and how about that "work his buns off to be considered German" comment, no sources still. How not like you... oh, wait, exactly like you. Only claims and no sources. 88.196.139.227 (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I would ignore RJ CG's antagonistic comments here. He was subject of a recent Arbcom case and has a block log as long as your arm [11], all related to Estonian articles. From his record it appears he has an axe to grid against Estonian editors and will apparently inject himself into any discussion if he can identify some of the participants are from Estonia. Martintg (talk) 21:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Let me remind you that yours truly became the subject of vicious personal attack (that you enthusiastically endorce with your fact-twisting) for having an audacity to question sources favourable to ethnically correct version of reality. Although I kinda support your suggestion to stop personal attack. RJ CG (talk) 12:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to add a bit on the relatives' perspective: The Martens family was split after the Russian revolution with the greater part emigrating to Finland where one of the brother had residence., It is for this reason that the Von Martens Family Archive is in Finland, I believe Helsinki. The part of the family remaining in Russia had almost no access to this until as a reconnection of the family branches was reestablished only recently. Jaan Kross, when doing his research, was allowed to visit Finland and spoke to both branches of the family - HOWEVER, because what we said did not fit with his plan (proving martens was estonian), he not only discounted and refused to include anything we said (note that Jann Kross' research does not include sources from living descendants at the time, including his nephews), but also was rude and decided not to inform the respective branches that their counterparts were still alive and well (we had no idea the Martens in Finland were still alive until a few years ago). It is for this lack of journalistic integrity that Jaan Kross' research cannot be trusted. Also, we do not have an agenda to push - The Martens in Russia consider themselves Russian, while those in Finland (for various reasons) now consider themselves Swedish. This doesn't change the fact that, ethnically, Friedrich Martens was German.Martens (talk) 20:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The "Von Martens Family Archive, Finland" is useless as a source, because it is unpublished and thus cannot be verified. Ofcourse any family would love to be associated with a famous person, thus there is a conflict of interest issue involved in protecting the family legends. Jaan Kross' book was review by the American Journal of International Law in 1994, so your claim of a "lack of journalistic integrity" is without basis. Note that the German language version of this article acknowledges Martens' ethnic Estonian roots [12]. Martintg (talk) 21:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Book by Kroos had been reviewed as fictionalized account. Wikipedia is not considered WP:RS, even German one. So your thinly weiled personal attack against editor who happened to enrage you has no grounds but your personal phobias. RJ CG (talk) 19:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Who is "Kroos"? I've never heard of him. However, if you mean Jaan Kross, then his book is not used as a source - however, American Journal of International Law is well-known peer-reviewed scientific journal - highest quality source there is for Wikipedia. Also, can you finally come up with some sources for your claims finally - or shall we write them off as a racist rant? 88.196.136.244 (talk) 04:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Since this has become a place for sharing Martens family histories than I'd add my few cents. I have no idea if we're related but my grand-grandfather from mother’s side, his name was Karl Martens. He and his decedents have been buried at Kullamaa cemetery in Estonia. The families burial site is still there, feel free to check it out. Never heard that any of my ancestors ever considered themselves Germans, or moved to Finland and became Swedes etc., our side of the family were all Estonians. Regarding family archives than in ours there is a contract from the 19th century showing how Karl bought some land from Nikolai von Buxhoeveden.--98.212.196.116 (talk) 04:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)