Template talk:French elections

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Why should this template not include Presidential elections under the Third Republic? Not including them would seem to imply that there was no presidential elections before 1965, which is false. Tazmaniacs 12:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC) They should also include, IMO, Presidential elections under the Fourth Republic. An election is an election, universal suffrage is another thing. Did you know, by the way, that the election of the President at universal suffrage has not always been considered democratic? And that José Bové proposed that, if he was elected (that was before the first round), he would be the last President of the Fifth Republic? Your assertion backs-up a POV that only universal suffrage elections are "real" elections. The template is not called "French elections by universal suffrage"... Tazmaniacs 12:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

No, but the standard for these 200+ election templates it to only include nationwide elections. Number 57 12:48, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

So? That is not a very strong argument... Tazmaniacs 14:19, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry to reverse, and rather not have a silly edit-war on this, but really: why would Presidential elections under the Third Republic and Presidential elections under the Fourth Republic not be included here? Saying "we agreed on 200 templates" to not do so is not a relevant argument IMHO. If we're going to talk about "presidential elections" in France, well, it is very misleading to claim that there was none before that the president was elected on universal suffrage, something the French people owe to De Gaulle. This probably wouldn't sound to you strange if you knew how much the institutions of the Fifth Republic have been contested in the past (Mitterrand called it a "permanent coup d'etat") and today (all — I mean all — candidates today pretend to renovate the institutions, going for some kind of so-called "Sixth Republic"). There is many way to vote, and a president elected by "high electors" is still a president. His role was different then? But that does makes him less "democratically elected"? Anyway, all of this debate is beside the point: there is no reason to reserve the template which include presidential elections to presidents of the Fifth Republic — who were not always elected by the people... There was a president in France during the Second Republic, and his election was kind of important... There is no reason to exclude any of them, not that I think of. Tazmaniacs 00:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know much about politics of South Africa, but I thought that universal suffrage was not around during the apartheid. So why is that Template:South African elections included here, is that "nation-wide" ? I'm sure you'll find many others examples. What about "universal suffrage" without women vote? What about manipulated elections? Etc. etc. Tazmaniacs 00:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

See Separate Representation of Voters Act, and tell me why those elections are included in the template. Tazmaniacs 00:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The point is that these elections were open to the public, albeit a limited number. Presidential elections in the third republic were not open to the public, and from that it is possible to argue that they weren't really elections but just parliamentary votes. Would you include a vote of confidence in a new government as an "election for Prime Minister", because it's effectively the same thing. Number 57 08:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I have to say I'm with Number 57 on this. —Nightstallion (?) 08:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

"Possible to argue that they weren't really elections but just parliamentary votes"??? Really? So you are claiming that only universal suffrage elections qualify as elections? You are also upholding the point of view that only an election made at direct universal suffrage is really a (democratic) election. Make no mistake: voting for the President at direct universal suffrage in France is not any more controversed (despite Bové's remark at the end of his campaign). But it has been for a long time. And claiming that indirect universal suffrage is not an election is a misunderstanding of public law & Constitutional law.

Of course presidential elections during the Third Republic were elections; you overlook the fact that the President was elected by the Sovereign of France, that is, the People. You may think (as most do — and as I do myself, but that's beside the point) that direct universal suffrage is more democratic than indirect universal suffrage. Others have argued to the contrary that this was Bonapartism and thus anti-democratic (as it gave too much power to one person). But a template is not the place to take position on that, neither to discuss on the pros & cons of presidentialism, parliamentarism or a mixed presidential-parliamentary regime.

Concerning the "vote of confidence", precisely it is not an "election" because it has not got this status. Whereas presidential elections at indirect universal suffrage do have this status. At the end, you are claiming that only direct elections are elections, although they may be carried out under census suffrage or exclude the majority of the population (Blacks, women, etc.) Whereas you consider that indirect forms of elections are not elections. Under what grounds are you making this novel distinction? Should I add that "indirect universal suffrage" is more democratic than census suffrage — since in the first, the People is Sovereign, whereas in the second, the People is restricted to those who pay the census — but that it seems you would consider only the second to be "democratic"?

Note that indirect universal suffrage is still in force for the elections of the Senators. Would you say now that French senators are not elected? And the US president is also elected through Indirect election; so he is not elected after all?Tazmaniacs 13:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I would say French Senators are not elected - that is why they are not on the template! The American Presidential elections is totally different - a vote for the elector is de facto a vote for the President as that is the electors' only purpose. This is totally different to a local election, where a vote for a councillor is based on the councillors political actions rather than his potential future vote for the Senate. Number 57 16:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)