Talk:French name
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[edit] Use of real-life personalities in order to illustrate some traits
I wrote this article because I witnessed English-speaking people getting confused with respect to the names of people in France. This is for instance the case on Wikipedia articles, where, for instance, people cite Philippe Pétain as Henri Pétain, or claim that because Dominique de Villepin has a de in the name, then he must be aristocratic (a common confusion in France too).
- But The de Villepin family IS claiming aristocratic origin! there was some time ago an article in LeMonde that stated that this claim is more than dubios.
Because of this, I deliberately chose to illustrate possible confusions with the names of real-life people taken from the political or historical world. I think this drives the point that the situations described are not rare or hypothetical, but occur somewhat frequently.
What do other contributors think? David.Monniaux 06:57, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
- This article is very helpful: thank you. I've just been looking at the article on Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. He normally used the full form of his family name. However, the article often abbreviates it just Teilhard, but this article suggests it should be Chardin. Does anyone know which is more correct? --Gareth Hughes 19:17, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
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- I've explained the matter more clearly. Basically, it's up to the person's choice, or to custom regarding a family. Some people appreciate having a de in their name, because it is connoted with nobility (even though it does not imply it). Some people dislike it for exactly the same reason. Teilhard de Chardin was, I suspect, more of the second category.
- In addition, a genealogy site states that this is not a family_name + land_name compounds: Ce nom composé s'est formé au XIXe siècle. Teihard vient en principe du Lot, et devrait désigner un bois de tilleuls. Chardin est un diminutif de Richard formé par aphérèse, surtout porté en Lorraine. In this case, the usage of just keeping the land name does not apply. David.Monniaux 20:09, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
David.Monniaux 19:59, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Other Francophone habits
people in french speaking part of Canada always seem to use as their usual name what in english is the middle name (i.e. the one just before the surname) except for "composite names" [noms composés] which are used in toto. this last one seem to be more popular then in france.
Another thing is that since mariage laws have changed in the 80s in québec, the bride do not automaticaly take the husband surname anymore meaning that the number of childs with 2 surname have gone way up.
I don't know if this would be the place to add this (considering its naming habits *from france*) but since it is related and would otherwise make for a short page, what do people think ?--Marc pasquin 01:29, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] The "Talleyrand-Maury" issue
The legend of the illustration assumes that Talleyrand's family name was "Maury". I think it's a mistake : his family name was...Talleyrand (with Périgord added in the 17th for some genealogical pretentions). Furthermore, Talleyrand was no abbé (abbot : courtesy style for every catholic priest at this time) but bishop. A correct anouncment would have been "mass celebrated by M. d'Autun" (the then correct style for a bishop) or "mass celebrated by Mgr de Talleyrand-Périgord" (the modern style for bishops, wich i'm not sure was used in 1790). This "abbé Maury" could be either a pseudonym for Talleyrand (a pun on his second given name Maurice) or a totally different person. It definitely can't be used as an illustration for the uses of names in France. 194.158.122.145 20:20, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Academic Titles
A discussion of academic forms of address, for say Rectors, Deans, and Professors would be much appreciated.
[edit] Abbreviation of Monsieur: M. vs Mr
I intend to discuss the removal of "Mr" from the article. The article refers to the book "Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l’Imprimerie nationale" (ISBN 2-7433-0482-0). I remember that the book only mentions "M." as the proper abbreviation of monsieur. (Other source: Manuel de typographie française élémentaire, Yves Perrousseaux, ISBN 978-2911220005)
In addition, the article of the French Wikipedia Typographie says, "On abrège monsieur par M. et non Mr ni Mr.", meaning "Monsieur is abbreviated M., and not Mr nor Mr."
The mistake is widely spread, especially on mail addresses. I believe word processors helped spread the wrong form of the abbreviation, because they were badly translated from their English version.
In typography books, I have never seen "Mle", for mademoiselle. So I am questioning that abbreviation as well.
