Talk:French ensigns

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This article was nominated for deletion on 10 October 2005. The result of the discussion was keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Contents 1 References for Text and Unloaded Images 2 Dispute of factuality 3 A Request of Clarification from Ground Zero: Where have I misquoted sources? 4 User 217.123.4.108 5 Use of the word template 6 HOTR: By what right do you arbitrarily delete/hide mine and Mysha's Contributions? 7 Ensign 8 Unblanked with changes 9 List 10 Helpful Note from FOTW: Attitude of French Administration to its Overseas Colonies 11 ensigns 11.1 French_ensigns 12 Meaning of "ensign" 13 Reverting User 69.156.107.3 changes. Please stop your un-warranted deletions 14 Suggestions for the title of this article 15 Ensigns: some definitions of the term 16 JPD: How come you recent created a separate page called "French Colonial Flags" ? 17 Sun down

[edit] References for Text and Unloaded Images

Before people (and you know who) start jumping on this, I have the references for the text, and the uploaded images. Please do not start any "Votes for Deletion" non-sense until I have typed them out, and you have checked them yourselves.

Thank you, respectfully,

ArmchairVexillologistDon 18:26, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute of factuality

You've seen to have confused many different things together. The blue one was only ever used by governors and the white was a french naval ensign (i.e. used by the french navy) no longer used. The green and the red did not exist by themselves but were the backgrounds for specific flags: with 2 stars it was togo for the first, and with one voided green star it was morocco for the second. finaly, the yellow was only use (like this) for the flag of annam, it wasn't a general purpose ensign.

All this to say that there is no reason for this article to exist at least in its present form. If this is meant to be something you think you have discovered, no "original research" is supposed to be included on the wiki--Marc pasquin 03:00, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello Marc Pasquin,

I welcome your review of this article. You being a member and contributor to the Flags of the World site, I again thank you for your review of the French ensigns article that I contributed.

Flags of the World website

http://flagspot.net/flags/

First off, this is work in progress, so yes its present form was just a beginning, and I shall "up-grade" it as time permits. Next, as per your observation of me "confusing things", I assume that this may refer to the line "as used currently in France's overseas possessions" . This only applies to the French Red Ensign, and the French Blue Ensign, where as the French Ensign, French Ensign, and French Ensign, were used in past the but in the present not in use. I cut-and-pasted the phrase "as used currently in France's overseas possessions" into the Five, but it should only apply to the first two (the Red and Blue), and not the last three (the White, Green, and Yellow). The corrected phrase "as used in France's overseas possessions" (with the word currently removed) has been entering into the capitions of those Flags, and I hope this allays your fears of "my in-accuracy".

Now, with regard to each French Ensign,

(i). The French Red Ensign, is currently used in the French Colony/Possession of Wallis and Futuna Islands, and has been do so by the Local Population since 1985. In the Field, a white-saltire is the charge (i.e., the main object of the centre of attention), and the four white triangles are used to represent the Islands in the Archepelago. Now, the cases of past use of the French Resign, were in the French Colonies of French Morocco, the Province of Laos (in the Union of French Indo-China (l'Unione de l'Indochine-Francaise)), and French Tunisia. The charges of each of these French Red Ensigns were, the green Star of Solomon, three white elephants standing in a stylised Buddist temple, and a red cresent moon and the Star of Islam on a white disk (a roundel).

l'Unione de l'Indochine-Francaise

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indochine_fran%C3%A7aise

French Red Ensign of Wallis and Futuna http://flagspot.net/flags/wf.html

French Red Ensign of French Morocco http://flagspot.net/flags/ma_fr.html

French Red Ensign of the Province of Laos http://flagspot.net/flags/la-1893.html

French Red Ensign of French Tunisia http://flagspot.net/flags/tn-fr.html

(ii). The French Blue Ensign, is currently used

http://flagspot.net/flags/sy-his.html#1918

http://flagspot.net/flags/sy-dam20.html

http://flagspot.net/flags/fr-coflg.html

(iii). The French White Ensign, was used

http://flagspot.net/flags/sy-alp20.html

http://flagspot.net/flags/sy-alw20.html

http://flagspot.net/flags/fr_revol.html

(iv). The French Green Ensign, was used

http://flagspot.net/flags/tg-1957.html

(v). The French Yellow Ensign, was used

http://flagspot.net/flags/vn_i-anm.html

(Interrupted ... I shall return).

(As well all TEN REFERENCES listed on the French ensigns article page back up and comfirm my French ensigns article, which by the way is not original research ).

ArmchairVexillologistDon 22:13, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

The confusion I was refering to is the fact that these are not ensigns (red, green, etc..) defaced with some symbols (as the british ensigns were), these are flag that were created "as is", in other word, there is no such thing as a plain red french ensign (unlike the british equivalent). That you assume there is some pattern is the original research I was refering to.

--Marc pasquin 01:31, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Marc Pasquin,

A Request for Deletion could reasonably be interpreted as "very low opinion" of your own, towards this article. I hope that this is not the case. Next, some text has been added to allay your concerns of "my inaccuracies". It should be noted that the French Blue Ensign (Flag Ratio, Hoist:Fly (1:1)) plain (i.e., without a charge), and the plain French White Ensign are recorded as existing. Next the plain Yellow French ensign of the Province of Annam (in l'Unione de l'Indochine Francaise), is recorded as well as existing.

All the other French ensigns will be specifically referenced here (i.e., assigned specific references for the 10 references listed here). Additionally a note on the manufacture of the flags. During the process of production of these French ensigns, it would be reasonable that a plain (i.e., without a charge) French Ensign would be produced, and then the distinguishing French Colonial Symbol would be sown on. This is not original research, but merely a "helpful suggestion" on this talkpage. I am sure, Marc Pasquin, that you would not knowly and willfully attempt to crush a "fellow Vexillologists" contribution to Wikipedia out of malice or comtempt. I am certain that this is not the case for a member of the esteemed Flags of the World website.

Regards, ArmchairVexillologistDon 05:49, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Marc, perhaps you should try to rewrite the article with an eye to removing or correcting dubious information. Also, if "French ensigns" is an innaccrate title, could you suggest a new one? Homey 07:26, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

the problem has I mentioned before is that the basic concept (a set of plain ensigns used in the same way as the british) is simply wrong. 2 mentioned don't exist (plain red and green), 1 exist (blue) but is not used for the same purpose as the british, 1 (yellow) was the actual flag of an entity. the only thing that could stay is the white one which was used in the past by the french navy but then, it would probably make more sense on a "historical french flags" page. --Marc pasquin 12:21, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I do not agree. The title of French ensigns is accurate, and illustrative. There is no need to change it. Next up, the text makes it clear what the purpose and usage of the French ensigns are. Lastly, Marc Pasquin, you are making a rather convoluted, and non sequitur objection.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 15:19, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Marc Pasquin wrote,

"the problem has I mentioned before is that the basic concept (a set of plain ensigns used in the same way as the british) is simply wrong."

Firstly, I said that the British Colonial Empire, and the Colonial Possessions of France used the same motifs, in this regard. I never said that the French explicitly set up Flag Regulations parallel to those of British. That would be inaccurate, and that is why I never stated that anywhere in my article. Marc Pasquin, from my point-of-view, it appears to me that you are ascribing incorrect information to the French ensigns article, that is does not in fact contain.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 16:32, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A Request of Clarification from Ground Zero: Where have I misquoted sources?

HOTR wrote this on the RfD for the French ensigns page,

• Delete - the article is more about British Ensigns than French. Several French ensigns are illustrated and there is a claim that they are used by French Overseas Territories but no actual example is given (ie which territories). Given that AVD has a history of misusing sources (Ground Zero has looked up AVD's sources in the past only to find that they don't say what he claims they say) we should probably delete this. Homey 02:48, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, I do not ask HOTR to clarify "his comments", as they are pretty clear to me (i.e., "his meaning"). I do though ask you, Ground Zero, to respectfully comment on the past abuse/misquoting of references that you feel I am quilty of. I am certain that HOTR would not do you the dis-service of misquoting you, expressing your opinion that I have a history of misquoting sources.

Regards, ArmchairVexillologistDon 06:00, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Why do you think Ground Zero will see your plea above? You musn't assume that he is so interested in you as to seek out your comments wherever they are posted. If you have a question for Ground Zero, put it on his talk page. Homey 09:54, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

AVD, the French Colonial Flags page of the FOTW website makes mention only of the blue flag noting that it was used by colonial governors as their personal flags.

There is a white flag but it was used by senior French military officers. It doesn't seem to have been a colonial flag at all.

The French Naval Ensign was not at all what you are calling an ensign meaning the article (if it merits being an article at all) is mistitled.

The "red ensign" used in one colony is "unofficial but tolerated".

I can't find any other overseas territories that use what you call "ensigns" except as governor's flags.

The historical flag of Tahiti doesn't fit anything you have in the articel.

Togo briefly used a French tricolour in its canton but this seems at odds with your suggestion that the "green ensign" was some sort of template. Homey 13:34, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello HOTR, you are quite the "budding Vexillologist". First of all, please do not make broad statements concerning flags until you have studied the material at hand, and can back it up.

Secondly, the 10 references that I cited in the sources section of the French ensigns page, I actually bought, and I have sitting right in front of me. So yaa, any specific question that you could field, I can answer for you.

Lastly, the basic objection that you and Marc Pasquin have voiced is unsound. I have clearly stated in the text that only the French Blue Ensign, the French White Ensign, and the Yellow Ensign was used without a charge.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 15:08, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] User 217.123.4.108

Would user 217.123.4.108 please register at Wikipedia and sign your contribution?

For an obscure article, this certainly is getting quite a bit of attention.

Additionally, what does your comment "Light a candle?" mean?

ArmchairVexillologistDon 20:08, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

No, thanks, I'd rather not spread myself too thin.

It's not common practice on Wikipedia to sign article contributions, but now that I write on the talk page, I'll sign my contribution. This also links to my user page, should you really need to get in touch, do I do not visit it that often.

``It's better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness!", is an English proverb stating that contributing only minutely to a solution is already better than to just complaining about the problem. Mysha (nl)

Hello Mysha, thank you for signing your name here in the talkpage. I appreciate that very much. As per signing your name in article history, I am asking please that you do so. This article is important to me, and it helps keep track of who added what, and when. Please consider signing your stuff contributed to the article here. Thanks again eh ArmchairVexillologistDon 21:20, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Use of the word template

Warning!

217.123.4.108 stop editing this article. Please sign in first before adding your contribution. Next up, the rearrangment, and use of the word "Template" is very presumptious. This should be discussed here on the talkpage before entring it into the article proper.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 21:11, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with using the word "Template". What the page says is that what those French colonial Ensigns are based on, are not all real flags, isn't it? So, to make clear that the base design is not a flag, I used "template". Since the confusion over the use of "ensign" in this text is what is making the article harder to understand, and causes part of the protests, replacing it with a less ambiguous word improves the text, and will hopefully lead to an article anyone can agree with. Mysha (nl)

Hello Mysha, ok.

What you say does make alot of sense about clarifying the "terms" here on this page. I guess "template" is an un-mistakable description. Thanks alot for your help here, on this page. I appreciate it alot.

By the way, since you are Dutch, are you aware of W.G. Gordons Vexillological book (1929) that states that the first French Republican Tricolour (1790-1794), vertical red-white-blue, and the second French Republican Tricolour (post-1794), vertical blue-white-red, are just the Dutch Flag rotated to the left, and then later on to the right.

W.J. Gordon, Flags of the World Past and Present Their Story and Associations, Frederick Wayne and Co., Ltd., London, pp. 265, (1929).

Please see pp. 224-225, that is were he states the relationship to the Dutch Flag.

W.G. Gordon writes that the French Republic was just coping the Flag of the republic of the United Provinces of the Netherlands.

Take care, and best wishes, ArmchairVexillologistDon 21:44, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Never saw the original, though I've seen him quoted now and again. Several authors commented on the relation between the flags, and the discussion at the time on whether or not is should be used at see, with the risk of confusion. I sometimes wonder where they got that information from. Does the 5th republic still have have report of the meetings of the 1st republic? Mysha (nl)

--

AVD, it's completely inappropriate and out of line for you to tell someone not to edit the article. Wikipedia is designed to allow people to edit without having a userid if they so wish. Homey 21:33, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Please do not revert all change just because you disagree with the use of a single word. If you disagree, than discuss it here. If need be, change back just the one word, but don't undo all changes unless you have, and give, a good reason for that.

I've reapplied the changes, keeping in tact your level of the header of the British Ensigns. However, what is the function of that section on a page on the French Ensigns? Mysha (nl)

Please see above Mysha. I was cut off before I could post my response to you. Thanks alot for helping with this article. I sincerely appreciate it alot indeed. Best wishes ArmchairVexillologistDon 21:44, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, thanks. That leaves my question about the section: "The British ensigns of the British Commonwealth of Nations". While what it says there is information, it's mostly information about the British ensigns. Does it have a purpose on this page, or would it be better to move it to that page? Moving it would make this page focus more on the French ensigns. Mysha (nl)

Hello Mysha, alright. If you feel the section on "the British ensigns of the British Commonwealth" should go, then I shall abide by your good judgement. Please though, could some reference/linkage to the British ensigns remain? I feel that the British ensigns and French ensigns are linked. Thanks again for your kind input, and help with the French ensigns article. I personally feel that your contributions have improved this article alot. Thanks again ArmchairVexillologistDon 23:49, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I've moved most of the information on the British ensigns out. I tried to include it on British ensigns, but all was already there. Likewise, I moved the focus of the comparison to France. It appears to clear up the text, but the drawback is that it has to state explicetely that there's no proven relationship. If the page on Colonial flags is indeed written, the comparing paragraphs probably should be moved there. Mysha (nl)

[edit] HOTR: By what right do you arbitrarily delete/hide mine and Mysha's Contributions?

HOTR: By what right do you arbitrarily delete/hide mine and Mysha's Contributions?

You seem to be unduely editing/suppressing this article.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 02:39, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I don't actually regard them as my contributions. I found out long ago that in community projects, taking your changes too personal just gives you headaches. It's a bit like with children: You bring them into the world, and you try to do your best with them, but once they are accepted into the community you have to let go and assume the world will treat them well. Having said that, I do hope everyone reading this and editing the page is trying to improve the article. Mysha (nl)

Hello Mysha, thanks alot for your kind advice, and food-for-thought about articles becoming "your children". I will try to look at that way, but I admit that it will take time for me to come around to that. Flags are very important to me, and I thank you so much for your immeasurable help with this article. You have really improved this article by-leaps-and-bounds. Thank you so muc for that indeed.

Take care, and best wishes ArmchairVexillologistDon 16:40, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ensign

While the similar pattern of design of various French colonial flags, and comparison of this pattern to British colonial flags and ensigns (both similarities and differences), is a very good topic to have on Wikipedia, I am bothered by the way it has been all lumped under the title "French Ensigns". It is a not uncommon mistake in places with a British flag history to think that "ensign" can be used to describe a flag with a national flag in a canton and a single coloured field possibly with a charge. However, "ensign" actually means a flag indicating nationality, especially in a nautical context. JPD 09:01, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

We are in working on making this page focus more on the French Ensigns. But you are right in saying that a page on Colonial flags would be a good addition. Comparing which countries assigned each colony a flag of a similar pattern, and which countries didn't, would then get a place there. So could the similarities of the systmes, and thepossible relations. I hope one of you has the time and sources to start writing about that. (Even when the French ensigns page is made more French focused, the older text is of course always available in the history for reference.) Mysha (nl)

[edit] Unblanked with changes

The changes that were introduced since I last edited this page are quite good; I hope we can keep them. I did unblank the rest of the page however, for two reasons:

1. It's difficult for me to move the information from "The British ensigns of the British Commonwealth of Nations" to the British ensigns page if I can't see the information.
2. It says explicitely at the top of the page that we shouldn't blank the page.

As can be seen under #Use of the word template and under #Ensign, the last issue commented on in the page is already being addressed. Everybody keep cool, together we're really improving this page. Mysha (nl)

Hiding information isn't the same as blanking the page, for the record. Homey 16:55, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

My apologies for the confusion. The Dutch Wikipedia does, of course, not use the English terms, and my interpretation was that blanking would be anything that made the text invisible to our readers. Mysha (nl)

[edit] List

I've moved some more information to the lists beside the flags. This puts all information on a flag of a colony together. It also allows us to list for each:

• The charge
• The type of each - flag and/or ensign.
• The adoption date(s) and if so, the date is was replaced.

I understand several readers have sources for this, so I hope this can be filled in quickly. Not only is this information that should be available in the article, it will also show more clearly whether we've listed flags which are/were not actually ensigns. Mysha (nl)

Mysha, several people have affirmed, particularly on the RFD page, that the flags being discussed in the part of the article that I hid are not ensigns per se, ie they are not naval or military banners or derived from French naval flags as, say the Canadian Red Ensign is - they just happen to look like British ensigns. I'd like to suggest that the second half of the article either be moved to the French flag article or to a new article called French colonial flags. What do you think?Homey 17:54, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

HOTR, the word "ensign" is not the sole properity of the British Commonwealth. The word ensign is a general term that usually applies to a Canton and Field design of a Flag. We can dwell on this point, and have this articles talkpage de-volve into a "nit-picking" of Vexillology terms, that will benefit no-one, or you can conceed that point that this term "ensign" has merit, and belongs in this article.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 18:20, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Helpful Note from FOTW: Attitude of French Administration to its Overseas Colonies

(Moved for above after first posting this section),

HOTR wrote,

Mysha, several people have affirmed, particularly on the RFD page, that the flags being discussed in the part of the article that I hid are not ensigns per se, ie they are not naval or military banners or derived from French naval flags as, say the Canadian Red Ensign is - they just happen to look like British ensigns. I'd like to suggest that the second half of the article either be moved to the French flag article or to a new article called French colonial flags. What do you think?Homey 17:54, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Why are you so ardent about moving the centre-piece of this article? Frankly, from my point-of-view I feel you are dogging every contribution that I try to make here at Wikipedia. You claim that Ground Zero has stated that I have of history of misusing sources, yet I dispute your claim, and Ground Zero has not commented on it. You successfully initiated and completely a VfD of my Republican Tricolour form of the Canadian Maple Leaf Flag page in under two hours, you demanded a "reference" for my explaination of Feudal Ranks and Feudal Domaines. Just about everything that I write, you are there to trash it. Frankly I feel that you are making a concerted effort to obliterate everything I try to contribute to Wikipedia. I openly ask, Is this what you are trying to do? If so, how do I get you to stop your behaviour?

ArmchairVexillologistDon 18:29, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

The British Colonies Flags (and its Dominions) were very clearly recorded and widely advertised. Some would say boastfully advertised (not me though, I love British Commonwealth Flags). However, a discussion at the Flags of the World (FOTW) of the French Adminstration towards its Colonial Possessions appears to be the reverse/opposite of the British mindset. The French Colonial Flags were not widely recorded, and publisized. The attitude of the French Republic regarding the Flags of her Colonial Empire was "it is none of your business, so we don't publish them much".

FOTW: Discussion of the French Colonial Authorities Lack of Flag Publication.'

http://flagspot.net/flags/tn-fr.html

This seems consistent with French custom in their overseas possessions, though it seems also that all these flags are very seldom well documented and that sometimes at least they are "wishful thinking" or are patterns very rarely used. I guess we should look forward to someone demystifying these "French ensigns".

Željko Heimer, 13 April 2003

This seems to be consistent with French administrative thinking: don't publicise it because it's nobody else's business. Books on railways are able to tell you when a particular class of locomotive was in use on a particular line - provided the colonial territory was British. But if the territory was French, you can discover that a particular class was in use in a certain territory in a given period, but they never say on what line, and if the territory covered more than one colony (like French West Africa) they don't even indicate which colony the locos were used in.

Mike Oettle, 15 April 2003

This makes this page, the French ensigns a topic that is general not touched on, and often overlooked. That is why I ardently believe this topic deserves its own separate page.

Sincerely ArmchairVexillologistDon 18:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ensigns

Comments from the RFD on the "ensign" issue:

[edit] French_ensigns

the basic concept is based on flawed research, namely, that there exist a certain number of plain flag with the french flag in canton used to design colonial flag. some french posession do have a tricolore in canton but these are either pre-existing flag to which a tricolore was added or flags that were created in toto. --Marc pasquin 01:38, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

• Merge - Being told that using sources that are not correct is not a personal attack. That means that either you need to find the correct sources or just remove the non-factual information. Remember, me and Marc, David and Grutness are vexillologists, if you need information (or perhaps drawings) of flags, just let us know. But since, from reading this, I still personally believe that this article is nothing but original research. I strong suggest merging to Flag of France and perhaps have a gallery of various French ensign (which I could draw easily). Zach (Sound Off) 15:09, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

• Merge/Redirect with Flag of France for correct material and Delete for fictional material. Original research based on a flawed premise and a fundamental misunderstanding of vexillology. David Newton 12:09, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

• • Okay - Marc's explained to me a bit more clearly what his beef is with the page, and I understand now. That there are flags like this in general is accepted, but their direct relation to British ones is questionable, especially given their usage. Also, some of the 'templates for flags" shown on the page in question never existed as flags in themselves. Many countries have used or do use flag designs similar to those probably first used by the British navy, either deliberately or coincidentally - and that is worthy of a Wikipedia article. The current article, though, is not that article. This needs a thorough rewrite, a split and a move to titles like Similarities in European colonial flag designs and Similarities in European naval ensign designs (or possibly something a bit more catchy). Grutness...wha? 12:43, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

• There is no parallel -- none -- in the use of British and French ensigns. The British have a system: red for merchant vessels, blue for government, white for naval (I have somewhat oversimplified) that France never had. Please act along the lines of Marc Pasquin's and James Dignan's ("Grutness") arguments. The parent article is just plain wrong; I don't know where the author got his information. ASKirsch
  • Is everyone from FOTW on Wikipedia? Where's Antonio, Andre and Ron? :) Grutness...wha? 10:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

• Keep and cleanup, in the sense that the French Ensign is worthy of an article. Much of the page belongs elsewhere, if at all, but that is an issue for talk pages, not AfD. JPD 09:09, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of "ensign"

Don said:

HOTR, the word "ensign" is not the sole properity of the British Commonwealth. The word ensign is a general term that usually applies to a Canton and Field design of a Flag. We can dwell on this point, and have this articles talkpage de-volve into a "nit-picking" of Vexillology terms, that will benefit no-one, or you can conceed that point that this term "ensign" has merit, and belongs in this article.

I believe that Don must have missed my comment earlier on the page, so I will repeat it here and on his talk page, so that we can have a positive discussion about it. I believe that discussion on Vexillology terms is exactly the sort of thing this talk page is for, because we should be trying to get the terms right to make better articles.

I believe Don is mistaken about the meaning of ensign. I said earlier:

It is a not uncommon mistake in places with a British flag history to think that "ensign" can be used to describe a flag with a national flag in a canton and a single coloured field possibly with a charge. However, "ensign" actually means a flag indicating nationality, especially in a nautical context.

Don, it is correct to say that "ensign" is not the sole properity of the British Commonwealth. However, it is only in the British Commonwealth that the word is (mis)used in the way that you describe. In the rest of the world it is only used in its usual vexillogical meaning of a nautical, aeronautical, or possibly military banner indicating nationality. The only reason that flags such as the Canadian Red Ensign are called ensigns is because they are derived from the British Red Ensign, which is an ensign because of its use, not its design. JPD 08:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello JPD, thank you very for taking the time to post here attention. I appreciate that alot. I apologise for not responding to your original post above. In "the frenzee" I did not see it. Sorry for that eh. I to hope for a constructive discussion on this issue of the word "ensign". You have made your point very clear, and I have learned something today about Flags. Thanks alot for that indeed.

I understand what you have said about the term ensign. Again I thank you for making that clear.

How about instead of French ensigns, the title of this page could be changed to French ensigns of similiar form to British ensigns , would this satisfy the strict usage of the word "ensign"? Please let me know what you think, JPD.

Take care, ArmchairVexillologistDon 15:24, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

French ensigns of similiar form to British ensigns

1) they aren't ensigns so describing them as "French ensigns" in the title is incorrect - your "compromise" does not actually adddress the issue at all. 2) Does that really sound like the title of an encyclopedia article to you? 69.156.107.3 21:18, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

User 69.156.107.3,

Your objection is not valid.

As per JPDs definition of ensign,

ensign: In the rest of the world it is only used in its usual vexillogical meaning of a nautical, aeronautical, or possibly military banner indicating nationality.

France used BOTH, (i). the French Tricolour, and (ii). the Canton and Field design as ensigns.

Yep, that is what the definition says. All it requires is more clarification, and careful wording. The basis of this French ensigns article is still a sound one, and deserves it own separate page for an article.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 21:42, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting User 69.156.107.3 changes. Please stop your un-warranted deletions

I have just reverted User 69.156.107.3 un-warranted deletions. Please do not vandalise this article. Please use the talkpage here to discussion your views, and rationalise them, and back them up.

Note:

From 1790-1794, the French Republic used this Naval Ensign. It was requested by the French National Assembly and assented to by the King of France. It would seem the French did not execute King Louis, and Queen Marie-Antonniette, until after 1790 .

Navy Ensign and Jack (1790-1794)

http://flagspot.net/flags/fr_revol.html

This corresponded directly with the British White Ensign (pre-1801, no St. Georges Cross on white background).

http://flagspot.net/flags/gb-enshs.html

You see their is some merit to this article (after all eh!).

(Note: the 1707-1720 date is incorrect. A pre-1801, and post-1801, plain white background British White Ensign variant, BOTH existed as well).

ArmchairVexillologistDon 22:22, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions for the title of this article

Since France has used BOTH, (i). the French Tricolour, and (ii). the Canton and Field design as ensigns, here are some suggestions for the current article,

(i). French ensigns (the current title),

(ii). French ensigns of similiar form to British ensigns,

(iii). French ensigns of the Tricolour, and the Canton and Field form,

all other sugesstions welcome.

The case for a separate page for this article (i.e., not to be deleted, and not to be merged with another page) I believe has been soundly made, and upheld. The French ensigns of the Canton and Field form have received little attention and are frequently overlooked in Vexillology. Their unique nature, within French Vexillology is deserveing of a separate page devoted to this topic, and it is provided here. There is nothing "dubious", "redundant", or of "questionable merit" here. This is all above board.

Sincerely ArmchairVexillologistDon 23:48, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

It is quite true that the first part of the article should stay at the title "French Ensigns", however I don't think that the flags mentioned in the second half are actually ensigns. I don't quite understand why you say they fit my definition, Don. Personally, I think that except for the white ensign from that is already mentioned earlier in the page, they should moved to a page called "French colonial flags". It might be good to have a link on this page to that page, becase of the similarities with the white ensign with canton, and the similarities to British ensigns, but it isn't right to call them ensigns. JPD 10:25, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello JPD,

Nice to hear from you indeed. Ok, the first part French ensigns, can stay.

I wrote above,

As per JPDs definition of ensign,

ensign: In the rest of the world it is only used in its usual vexillogical meaning of a nautical, aeronautical, or possibly military banner indicating nationality.

Does this not indicate that France used BOTH, (i). the French Tricolour, and (ii). the Canton and Field design as ensigns?

Please let me know what you think.

Sincerely ArmchairVexillologistDon 16:00, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ensigns: some definitions of the term

(i). In Heraldry they use the term Ensigns Armorial (basically means Coat-of-Arms).

http://historymedren.about.com/od/pimbley/a/pim_e_2.htm

Ensign - To distinguish by a mark or ornament, such as a crown, coronet, mitre, etc. A bishop, for instance, ensigns his arms with a mitre.

Prelates of the Roman Catholic Church ensign their shields with a hat, the tassels of which indicate their rank. A cardinal has four rows of red tassels, an archbishop four rows of green tassels, a bishop has three rows and an abbot two, the latter's hat being black. Prelates and legates place a patriarchal cross in pale behind their shield.

A staff is sometimes said to be ensigned with a flag.

Ensigned - [See ENSIGN.]

(ii). In Vexillology (Flags) they use

(FOTW reference) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xf-glos.html

Ensign

a flag flown at the stern of a ship, primarily for the identification of the nationality of the vessel. The ensign may be the same flag used as the national flag, or a specially designed version of the national flag. Nations may have one ensign or several different ensigns which may be used by various types of vessels (naval/war, state/government, civil/merchant) as well as specially designed flags for various organizations (yacht clubs, customs vessels, coastal authorities, etc.), or indicating a status of a ship's captain or crew (naval reserve). In some countries, the term ensign includes flags not intended to be hoisted on vessels.

French - pavillon

Spanish - pabellón, enseña

German - flagge

Russian - flag, kormovoi flag

Italian - bandiera

Dutch - natievlag

Polish - bandera

Danish - flag

Portuguese - pavilhão

Ensign staff

is the staff at the stern of a ship

Canton and Field Flag

<fair use image removed>

Flag of the World (FOTW) Website.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xf-glos.html

Image by Željko Heimer, 21 May 1996 based on image from World Book Encyclopedia

[edit] JPD: How come you recent created a separate page called "French Colonial Flags" ?

Hello JPD.

How come you recent created a separate page called "French Colonial Flags" ? (i.e., within the last 24 hours). I thought we were discussing here the applicability of the term "French ensign", on this talk page. Now you have just created a new separate page called French Colonial Flags without discussin it with me.

Now, this gives HOTR a pre-text to keep moving the information that was originally here (IN ONE PLACE, and thus focussed), and spread it all over the map! I don't like the arbitrary move. You still have not argued your point about the term "French ensigns" not applying to all the Flags originally posted in the body of this article (i.e., on ONE page, in ONE place).

Sincerely ArmchairVexillologistDon 16:57, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

JPD wrote above,

It is quite true that the first part of the article should stay at the title "French Ensigns", however I don't think that the flags mentioned in the second half are actually ensigns. I don't quite understand why you say they fit my definition, Don. Personally, I think that except for the white ensign from that is already mentioned earlier in the page, they should moved to a page called "French colonial flags". It might be good to have a link on this page to that page, becase of the similarities with the white ensign with canton, and the similarities to British ensigns, but it isn't right to call them ensigns. JPD 10:25, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Time Stamps from "JPD created French Colonial Flags" page (cur) (last) 10:48, 13 October 2005 JPD (info from French ensigns) (cur) (last) 11:01, 13 October 2005 JPD (→Template designs for the French colonial flags - more from French ensigns) (cur) (last) 17:04, 13 October 2005 HOTR

Now your above comment was Time Stamped: 10:25 today. You then (without waiting for me to respond) arbitrary moved information from this article, the French ensigns, and created a new page for it called "French Colonial Flags", and its creation was Time Stamped: 10:48 today. So you waited a whole 23 minutes for me to respond, at most, then moved it to a BRAND NEW PAGE. That is presumptious, and not very "polite". ArmchairVexillologistDon 17:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Don, I am sorry if I have been hasty in creating the page while we were still having the discussion. The main reason I did not wait was because an anonymous user had already moved the material (messily) into the middle of the page Flag of France, and I thought it would be better in a page of its own (with a few wording changes to make it uncontroversial). As I have said, I think it would be better with a title "French colonial flags" because most people would not consider them ensigns, and wouldn't look for them at this page. I thought this was a good reason to have that page, although I didn't delete anything from this page, until the discussion was finished, so that we could agree on what wording to replace it with.

In answer to your earlier comments, I agree that the canton and field pattern (with a white field) was used as a French ensign, as well as the current version. They both belong on this page. However, I don't think it is right to call the colonial flags (including the blue field governor's flag and the individual colonies' flags with charges) "ensigns", so they should be on a separate page, although they could be mentioned in a lot less detail here. Look at the page British ensigns - it does not include all the colonial flags, even though they have more reason to be called ensigns than the French ones do. JPD 17:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello JPD,

Ok. Sorry about that. I got very "jumpy". I have had alot of flak from people (and some people in particular) about this article. My nerves are quite frayed right now. Thank you for explaining the new "French Colonial Flags" page. If you strongly feel that it belongs on a separate page, I will abide by your good judgement. I do feel that once moved to a separate page there should be some paragraph, or something, directing the reader to the new French colonial flags page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_colonial_flags

I hope that you and I, can have a fruitful discussion about this matter. By the way, thanks again for creating a new French Colonial Flags page, it makes me feel that you care about the information included there. I appreciate that very much, and for all your help indeed.

Sincerely ArmchairVexillologistDon 17:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sun down

Gentlemen, and gentlewomen should they be present, as I mentioned before I do not want to stretch myself too thin, but it was nice cooperating with you all.

Regarding the problem of splitting up page: Entire encyclopeadiae have been designed around a chosen solution for this dilemma. The Brockhaus is famous for splitting its subjects into the tiniest possible articles. The Britannica is equally well-known for its page-spanning articles that treat all aspects of the topic. Fortunately, with Wikipedia we can have our cake and eat it: We can split topics into parts, yet in the introductions make clear in what way they are connected and link them together.

I'll therefore leave you with the suggestion to add to the introduction that "An ensign is also often understood to be a flag with union in corner (Concise Oxford Dictionary). On a seperate page this meaning is discussed for the French colonial flags.", or similar. This both addresses the issue of the multiple meanings, and links it to the older part of the article now on a new page with a less ambiguous title. The only thing left would be to add on that page a similar explanation of terms.

Wishing you all success on improving the articles further, and hoping you'll prefer merging changes over reverting them,
Regards, Mysha (nl)