Talk:Free software

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Free software article.
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Free software was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: September 1, 2007
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[edit] A great site clarifying (proprietary) misconceptions about free software

The second link is, in my opinion, the most valuable. It explains how free software aids capitalism, makes software development cheaper, etc. SteveSims 04:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Permissive and copyleft licences section is incorrect.

Once you give someone software under a certain license they have all of the rights stated in that license permanently. If you release a new version, you can license _that_ newer version specifically under a different license, and you can even change the licenses under which you are distributing the same piece of software; but you cannot change the terms of a license you have already granted someone.

Releasing software to the public domain does not affect future software releases even if they are just later versions of the software or identical releases of the public domain software. It does not go "completely out of control"; it works the same as attribution and copyleft.68.190.73.116 00:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

It's certainly possible for a license to be time-limited. The FSF and probably the OSI wouldn't like it, but it would still be a copyleft license if it required redistibution in source etc. As to public domain, you're both wrong and right. Wrong in that once given away, the software is "in the wild" and totally unrestricted. And right in that nothing prevents the original author from taking the same advantage of that lack of restriction that applies to all others. RossPatterson 01:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
That is stretching the definition of both permissive and copyleft. Once you license software to a party under the MIT, BSD, MPL, or GPL licenses that have those rights forever. I do not know of any time-limited licenses that are considered copyleft or permissive, and if you wrote one, it would not be considered "free" by the Free Software Foundation or Debian.68.190.73.116 18:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Never mind. RossPatterson 23:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Never mind, like you weren't talking about the article, or never mind like I missed the point? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 147.174.220.69 (talk) 21:04, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What statements need sources?

A {{moresources}} tag has been added to this article. Can someone (anyone - but especially the person who added the tag) say what sentences we need to find references for?

I like {{fact}} tags, so if someone adds a few, there is a good chance I will go dig up the required references. --Gronky 03:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

There are too many refs needed for {fact} tags to be used. Please see and Wikipedia:When to cite and WP:LEAD for guidance. Johnfos 04:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, well thanks for raising the issue. Is there anyone else out there who can give some ideas about what statements need references? --Gronky 08:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unbalanced

This article seems to be very pro Free software, with nothing to say about why it would not be used, or produced. I think the bias will need to be addressed before it could get a GA rating. Some of the disadvantages will have to be addressed. There probably need to be a paragraph also about freedom from patents — one example gets a mention, but there is a whole lot more to say. Graeme Bartlett 07:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

After reading your comment, I just noticed that there is no mention of the debate over where the freedom for everyone to look at the source code increases or decreases security. This should indeed be mentioned. Do you have any other examples of criticism/debate or reasons for not using free software? And yes, the patents info should be expanded. --Gronky 09:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I am a supporter of free software, nevertheless, it can be considered from the view of companies or individuals selling or giving away non free software. They may wish to derive an income from their intellectual work (or some one elses). There may be a desire to maintain control over a programmers creation. Some are possessive of their work and do not like to see others making changes! There is a mistaken view that releasing something to open source will get hundreds of programmers providing free support to improve the product. On some of the open source project sites you can see that many projects are started, but few have a good usable piece of software. (Of course this happens with proprietary or private special purpose software too). Graeme Bartlett 23:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The logic of your first point seems to imply that you think all articles about software, businesses, and sportspeople should say that their existence is potentially bad for, and unwanted by, their competitors? Seems to be too obvious to need an explicit statement.
For the second point, do you mean there should be a section on "Reasons why people might not release their software as free software"? Ok, that does sound good. Or maybe a section on "Motivations for and against releasing software as free software".
For the third point, about the "mistaken view", I completely agree. If the article repeats this mistaken view as a fact, then it should be fixed/removed. --Gronky 00:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradictory

Under the history section, it is mentioned; "It is important to note, however, that in many categories, free software for individual workstation or home users has only a fraction of the market share of their proprietary competitors."

However, in the next paragraph;

"The economic advantages of the free software model have been recognised by large corporations such as IBM, Red Hat, and Sun Microsystems."

Having only a fraction of the market share, sounds like a disadvantage, not an advantage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.26.122.12 (talk) 06:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move controversies to movement article?

It just hit me that the BitKeeper and binary blobs sections are not really about free software at all but are about the reactions and relationship between those issues and the supporters of the free software movement. I suggest moving those two sections to that other article and making the patents section a toplevel section itself - or patents and legal issues. --Gronky 09:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

Many sections have no references. Article has "pro-free software" POV. Rewrite the lead section. --Kaypoh 03:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks for the pointers, I'll get to work on them. --Gronky 19:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge in FSF's definition?

Someone's added tags suggesting that The Free Software Definition be merged into this article. I'm not sure it's a good idea. Although FSF's definition was the first, "free software" is no longer a uniquely FSF thing - but "The Free Software Definition" is. --Gronky 14:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

If a company calls its “open” software “free software”, that doesn't make it free… but who defines that, if not FSF? --AVRS 21:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh, right, DFSG. Sorry, please ignore that comment, as I didn't read the article, and presumed that people might not follow the FS Definition link (as it would be the only one). --AVRS 21:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "open source" in the first para

It is a fact that many people call free software "open-source software". For this article to cover the topic completely, it is important to clarify that at the very start. It is standard Wikipedia convention to put common alternative names in the first line. Without this clarification, many people are coming to the conclusion that free software and open-source software are two different things - and then they imagine some arbitrary, wrong distinction. --Gronky 18:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Is* there not a diff between the two? --77.177.174.160 09:19, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Nope. "Free software" was coined in 1983. In 1998, some people wanted a "replacement label" [1] and they chose "open-source software". Some of these people then set up Open Source Initiative as "a marketing program for free software".[2] That's it, just a new nickname for the same thing.
OSI and FSF sometimes disagree about licences, but this doesn't mean they're talking about different things. Even if they used the same name, they would surely sometimes disagree about things. Also, the amount of disagreement is often over stated. So far, they've disagreed three times. FSF approved an old Netscape licence, and OSI disagreed, and OSI approved an old Apple licence and a RealNetworks licence, to which FSF disagreed. None of those three licences are even used for anything nowadays, so they're hardly a big deal. --Gronky 09:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
There is a difference, a small but important difference. To not mention this difference is to pretend it doesn't exist, which is not good for a thorough encyclopedia article. However these two terms do include pretty much the same software, so I've kept that part and inserted a short phrase which notes the difference. 88.107.37.68 17:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Show me the important difference between the two categories of software. (Not the philosophies, not the personalities, not the organisations, not the political implications of either name - the software.) --Gronky 20:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
That misses the point of this article, which is a WP:SUMMARY and thus is required to present the software alongside the philosophies, the personalities, the organisations and the political implications. It is true that most of the time when actually referring to software the terms are synonymous, but putting your suggested disambiguation in the first line of the article suggests considerably more parity than that. We must try to restrain ourselves from overly nitpicking in the first few sentences of articles lest the intros become unreadable. Chris Cunningham 13:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
But there is "more parity than that". There's either 100% parity ("OSS is just a replacement label") or there is 100%-minus-microscopic-gap (what FSF approves compared to what OSI approves). From the latter standpoint, the gap is just a defunct Netscape licence, a defunct Apple licence (neither used for anything), and a RealNetworks licence (possibly also currently used for nothing - or at most, one application). This gap can only be seen with a microscope. Telling people that the two things are not the same because of this crack is just misleading. --Gronky 19:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
You have ignored my argument. This is a summary article; it must take into account the whole ecosystem, not just the software. If the two were synonymous, there wouldn't be such a kerfuffle regarding their differences. Chris Cunningham 11:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
re Gronky, the important difference is explained in that article I linked, which since has been removed. (here is is again) One example is OSI supported an old version of APSL whilst FSF did not, because it did not allow private modified versions (all modifications had to be made public). 88.107.20.250 12:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I've read the linked article, but it's about the movement, not the software. As for your example, that licence isn't even used for anything. In software terms, it has an importance of zero. The only importance anyone could argue it has is as a precedent in OSI's approval process, but we don't know if OSI still stands by that decision (they might see it as a mistake in hindsight). So the importance is either zero, or we could speculate that it has a tiny procedural importance. --Gronky 19:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Afd: Free and open source software

FYI: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Free_and_open_source_software --Gronky 13:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Result of AfD was Keep

discuss a merger at Talk:Free_and_open_source_software#Merge_FS_.2B_OSS_here Lentower 01:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Giftware?

Giftware redirects here, but the article doesn't explain what it is. Please fix it. Shinobu (talk) 17:29, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "A Free Open-Source Software Resource" Relevance == Informative

"A Free Open-Source Software Resource", http://www.zentu.net is a site I pay money for, out of my own pocket, to inform people about the benefits of Free Open-Source Software. I have never been paid a penny for any of its content, nor accepted any donations. It is not link-spam or a money-making venture; it's useful, relevant, and informative, a collection of "weeded" and excellent resources and products from the Free Software World. People have a right to know these things. Thank you. - Shawnee :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Indiejade (talk • contribs) 00:00, Dezember 16, 2007 (UTC)

This article is about free software. If you had read it you would know that the free software ideology opposes the Open Source ideology. So your link can't comply with WP:WEB. --mms (talk) 00:06, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Free Software and Open-Source are not mutually exclusive. Their ideologies are not opposed; their ideologies are simply two halves of the same coin. Read anywhere on the Internet, and you will discover that. My link was no less obtrusive or "hurting" the integrity of this article about FREE software than is the link to the 'Free Software Magazine' below. Imagine it like my website and all of its free information can be free, even more free than the magazine, because the website doesn't kill the trees. Indiejade (talk) 02:54, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Nevetheless, you must admit the website is of marginal popularity, with a very low PageRank. Why not wait until it has at least PR=5? Pundit|utter 04:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Your website does not belong as an external link in Wikipedia articles. It adds nothing encyclopedic to them, it has very little content, and nothing significantly original. Please do not add it to any more articles. RossPatterson (talk) 18:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

That is your opinion. Please do not edit or ask me to remove my contribution; yours is not any more or less "valuable" than mine. Please respect my contribution and leave it alone. Indiejade (talk) 21:13, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Please explain what content at zentu.net is significant, notable, or not available at better-known and well-established sites. I followed every link I could find and looked at every page and observed none. The site is nothing more than collection of links to various open source projects, and not a particularly good one at that. Until it becomes something significant, please refrain from adding it to articles on Wikipedia. RossPatterson (talk) 21:26, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

The link is useful in that it 'organizes' the vague cloud of 'free open-source software' into categories that are informative and understandable to the average non-technical user. Free open-source software itself is nothing to people unless they understand what it does or can do for them. Free word-processors? A free spreadsheet program? Free graphic-design software? All of these are common examples of Free Open-Source Software that a lot of people would and could benefit from using, but that many don't understand how to get, though they may have heard about F/OSS. The link bridges the gap. The details are explained on the site. The website does collectively what each individual small open-source project cannot do on its own, and that is bring awareness to the concept of Free Open-Source Software as it relates to software that people would normally pay money for. I would be very interested in seeing how many of these removals of my link and revised edits are being done by people on Microsoft Operating Systems. . .

The average non-technical user is not interested in the politics, which is why this argument is extremely futile and hurting the cause. RossPatterson, your opinion that the site is "not a particularly good one at that" is irrelevant, not to mention rude, and unless you can point the way to a website that does what mine does better, I kindly ask that you please do not remove my contribution. -Shawnee (AKA) Indiejade (talk) 21:51, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article List of open source software packages, already referenced in this article, does a much better job of categorizing and enumerating packages than your website does. It also has both the advantage of being part of Wikipedia and of linking to the many package articles Wikipedia already contains. As a rule, Wikipedia prefers internal links to other articles over external links. RossPatterson (talk) 22:01, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Freedomware

I'm going to remove the bit on freedomware, which is supported by some blog references. There's not much on google, the top hit is a clothing company.[3] And there's not enough searches for trends.[4] --h2g2bob (talk) 23:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] free software = free of charge

Doesn't free software just mean "free of charge"? That's what I've thought for the last 10 years or so, but increasingly I'm coming across the redefinition of free software demonstrated by this page, where free software is defined to mean something else which seems more to do with ideaology than software.

To be a complete/useful article it really should cover both the intuitive meaning and the one about "freedom" that needs a whole article to explaing it! :-)

For me and most people I talk to, whether IT experts or not, free software is stuff like Adobe Reader that is free to download. Hope I'm not offending anyone by saying this, but this is the way language works, historical meanings aren't always the exclusive ones, and no one "owns" or "controls" language to say, "no, free software can only mean the thing we want it to".

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.169.63 (talk) 08:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

This issue is covered in freeware, Gratis versus Libre and other articles linked from this one. But please feel free to improve the article, if you have referenced and verifiable material clarifying the distinction. Technobadger (talk) 09:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Free Software versus Open Source

Open Source and Free Software are _not_ the same. Can someone help to clarify that within the article ? - DCEvoCE (talk) 16:37, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The difference is philosophical. The FSF puts forward a moral argument that all software should be free as a basic human right, whereas the OSI treats it as a business model - in that offering the source code for free confers a competitive advantage and acts as a platform for selling support and other services.
Unless you hold strong moral views, there is really no practical difference as a developer or a user, both movements use largely the same licenses which really is all that matters for most people.
Referring back to the article. I personally am not happy with the following text ...
Free software is distinct from "freeware" and "open-source software"; both are proprietary software made available free of charge. ... Open-source software can be studied and modified but only redistributed as patches if the license requires it.
I don't agree that merely because OSI recognises licenses that require redistribution of modifications as patches, this justifies calling open-source "proprietary software", in fact this smells of bias to me.
Eclecticdave (talk) 13:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. That claim might be true of some licenses claiming to be "OSS" (a very hazily defined term), but certainly not true of all. However, you might correctly substitute the term "shared source" for "OSS" in that passage. Technobadger (talk) 09:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Possibly, but IMHO "shared source" is a fairly narrowly defined term compared to the other two. I would be inclined to simply strike the reference to OSS in this context, but keep the comparison to freeware as this is a useful and important distinction.
Eclecticdave (talk) 02:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Agreed again. Will strike the reference now, and if the author can clarify (and reference) their point to illustrate something I'm missing, then it can be restored. Technobadger (talk) 08:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Great! I've taken the liberty of making a further modification to remove the reference to Open-Source entirely from this text. I would like to reintroduce the difference between Free Software and Open Source, correctly stating the difference as per my first paragraph above, but I haven't had time to look for a citation yet.
Eclecticdave (talk) 16:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I've just re-added "open-source software" to the list of terms that were created to replace the term "free software". I'm not completely sure which reference to "open-source software" you folk are discussing, but I guess it's unlikely that anyone is questioning that "open-source software" was announced as a replacement label for "free software", so I guess I'm not trampling your discussion. --Gronky (talk) 23:13, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


Free software is distinct from "freeware" and "open-source software"; both are proprietary software made available free of charge. ... Open-source software can be studied and modified but only redistributed as patches if the license requires it. - I wasn't happy with that either, that's why I asked for help. I think it would be important to highlight the difference between Open Source and Free Software. DCEvoCE (talk) 01:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Political and ethical issues

Is it worth considering adding some discussion about the political and ethical aspects of free software? I've observed resistance when it has been compared to Fair Trade, while in many ways the organisation of the development teams reflects anarcho-syndicalist approaches. This is not reflected in the article.

RichardRothwell (talk) 21:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Attention from an expert

Please someone try to clearly state the difference between Free Software and Open source software in the lead of both articles. Thank you!--Kozuch (talk) 23:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

They're the same thing, there's just two names. I'll see if I can clarify this in the intro. --Gronky (talk) 23:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Done. Is that an improvement? --Gronky (talk) 23:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your edits! However, if they are the same, why isnt there only one article??? That is actually what I was confused about.--Kozuch (talk) 13:59, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I would love to merge open-source software into this article, but there are some people who strongly disagree. A lot of people (incorrectly) think that the topics are different, and some people think that Wikipedia should rename free software as "open source" (because the "open source" marketing campaign has been so successful). There are probably also people who object to Wikipedia using the original name (free software is the original name) just because they don't like Richard Stallman.
The good news is that two years ago there were nine different articles, but I've managed to get that down to three: free software, open-source software, and alternative terms for free software. Actually, to be precise, there is currently a fourth article (Free and Open Source Software), but it is just the pet project of one very persistent editor - no one contributes to it and it will probably be deleted in a few months.
So, yes, it is a problem, and I hope it will be solved, but I don't expect it to be solved this year. In the mean time, three articles is much better than nine. --Gronky (talk) 16:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
<pedant>"Are much better, surely? :-)</pedant> -- 92.40.185.131 (talk) 14:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
He obviously left out "having", merely implying it. This accounts for the singular. :P tijmz (talk) 20:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Examples of free software

firefox? 77.105.202.189 (talk) 02:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I think FF may be open-source rather than freeware. Mind you, I'm not certain of the exact difference. -- 92.40.185.131 (talk) 14:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)