Talk:Free software/Archive 5

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More problems, and why 70.69.42.228's version is beyond redemption

I'm trying to fix the intro, using your version as a base, but it's impossible. I have to fix every single sentence. Here's just another example of poor writing:

The ability to study and make modified versions of a program is hampered by the practice of distributing programs in a format which computers can run but which humans cannot understand and by withholding the human readable source code, and the FSF's definition of free software includes some requirements related to source code.
  • "The ability ... is hampered" - not always! You're writing in the passive voice and it's confusing because the reader isn't told whether this is done intentionally by everyone (including free software distributors), or is it done intentionally by some people, or is it something that's done because it's unavoidable.
  • And then you say that FSF's definition "includes some requirements..." Like what? Like that it must be withheld? You're answer might be "Yeh, but I copy'n'pasted the definition down a little lower" - but text should not rely on text that the reader has not gotten to yet for it to be understandable. Every time I try to fix your writing, the result is barely recognisable because so much fixing is needed, so I hope my explanations here help you to understand why I keep rewriting your efforts. Gronky 00:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
  • in the first line of the first paragraph, free software gives you "capabilities", in the last line of the 2nd para, it gives you "freedoms", which is it? (They later switch back to being capabilities again)
  • "In the view of many..." WP:WEASEL
  • Again you've brought up the GPL without having said what a licence is.
  • "GPL is a legal definition" - licences are not "legal definitions", it's licence, it's a one-way grant of rights (and at this point of the article, there's still been no explanation of what a licence is)
  • "a legally binding promise ... that the community's software freedoms ... will not be hampered" - a licence can't make that promise, the GPL just does it's best but there are situations where someone's software freedoms can be taken away in spite of the GPL.
  • "The FSF and other advocates also believe that any program that includes or is derived from free software must be made available to the community as free software, including" - no they don't. They made the GNU Lesser General Public License specifically to allow this in some situations, and Richard Stallman similarly approved the Ogg Vorbis codec being relicensed from the GPL to an X11/MIT style permissive licence.
  • After you mention GPL, you constantly mix up free software and GPL'd software, particularly in the last paragraph of the intro. It's not true, and it's hard to follow.
  • "...difference between free software and open source software" - this is farcical, and I couldn't understand your lemon juice explanation above.

When I pointed out five flaws in your version, you said "Finding five small, fixable, largely semantic problems is not an excuse to revert the edit." So there's ten more. These aren't fifteen isolated glitches, there's a pattern here. Gronky 04:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

What about this intro

Please leave comments after. I've gone to lengths to show errors with an alternative intro above. Here's my suggestion for a replacement. Is there anything wrong with these four paragraphs:

Free software is software which can be used in any way, copied, studied, modified, and redistributed with or without modifications. Requirements can be placed on these activities without violating the definition only if they are trivial or if they are the minimum necessary to ensure that further recipients also receive these freedoms. The primary definition of free software is The Free Software Definition, published by Free Software Foundation (FSF). The defining purpose of having these freedoms is so that computer users are free to help themselves and to cooperate with others in a community.

The freedoms to make copies, to redistribute a program, and to use it for any purpose are often restricted by copyright law. The freedoms to study and make modified versions of the program are usually restricted by the practice of distributing programs in a format which computers can run but which humans cannot understand and withholding the human readable source code version. Programs with such restrictions are called proprietary software - the antonym of free software. Note that free software is not defined by price, but by the freedoms mentioned above being available in a sufficiently unfettered manner. Software distributed at no cost is called freeware.

Free software grants these freedoms to recipients by accompanying the software with a licence which gives permission to do these things, and by making the software available in human readable source code form as well as, optionally, in computer readable binary form.

The most commonly used free software licence is the GNU General Public License, published by FSF. As well as granting the freedoms to use, study, modify, and redistribute the software, it adds a requirement that complete source code is made available for all modified versions that are distributed. This requirement implements the oft-debated share-alike concept of copyleft.

(please leave comments here) Gronky 01:24, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't necessarily phrase the first sentence the same way, but my major objection is that it's written like a conclusive summary, but it omits some key characteristics, particularly that access to the source code is a prerequisite. If you don't like the idea of referring to source code in the first sentence, I would suggest phrasing it in a way that makes it clear that you're naming some characteristics of the free software definition, or starting with an entirely different sentence and breaking down a summary into several sentences or a paragraph. 70.69.42.228 05:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Can you cite a reference for the second sentence? 70.69.42.228 05:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
In response to "The primary definition of free software is The Free Software Definition," I say, once again, that it's not the FSF's place, yours, or certainly wikipedia's to make any assertion about what is good or valid public practice. The words "free software" are used by many people, and narrowing your criterion to usages that are comparable to the FSF's doesn't make the sentence any more accurate or NPOV than if it were in an article about freeware. 70.69.42.228 05:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if I'd call the fourth sentence (last in 1st paragraph) inaccurate, but it needs a reference, given that you're citing someone else's definition and stating a purpose. 70.69.42.228 05:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
What's the relevance of the first sentence in the second paragraph? 70.69.42.228 05:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
"Programs with such restrictions are called proprietary software " - more POV language totalitarianism. Microsoft doesn't use that phrase, I don't use that phrase, my government doesn't use that phrase, and it's not wikipedia's place to correct our practices. Feel free to document a fact like "the FSF's literature and related sites typically refer to programs with such restrictions as proprietary software." 70.69.42.228 05:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
"Note that free software is not defined by price, but by " - more language that alludes to correct practice rather than observed fact. This is no better than an article about freeware vendors' usage of "free software" saying "free software is defined by cost." Same objection to "Software distributed at no cost is called freeware." 70.69.42.228 05:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
"Free software grants these freedoms " - basically the same objection, I would say "The FSF", or "Parties using the FSF's definition", etcetera. In this particular case, the issue is also that the FSF's definition of free software isn't specific to the methodology of licensing, although many of their practices involve licensing. In a state with no copyright law, distribution of source code is enough, and so on. 70.69.42.228 05:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
"The most commonly used free software licence is the GNU General Public License" - no real objection, but this needs a reference. 70.69.42.228 05:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
"it adds a requirement that complete source code is made available for all modified versions that are distributed" - the GPL goes far beyond this, requiring the entire program, including entirely separate modules and original non-derivate work to meet the FSF's free software definition. I can factually prove this, it's in the text of the license, it's directly pertinent to this issue, and in my opinion which is as valid as yours, some mention belongs in the introduction.
"This requirement implements the oft-debated share-alike concept of copyleft." - oft-debated? would you be comfortable with this level of nicety and omission of real world fact in an article about Microsoft's licensing? You've glossed over various factual implications of the requirement, and over the very contentious nature of this issue in the computing community. 70.69.42.228 05:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Only way out: back

Ok. I've repeatedly pointed out factual errors in your (70.69.42.228) version, and how your version lacks basic English writing skills. You also don't like my version. It is not acceptable for you to repeatedly revert my edits to restore your version, so we have to find a third way. Let's go back to the way the page was before you landed here and take it slowly, discussing everything that makes you uncomfortable and trying to make small improvements rather than have you just rewrite it the way you like. Gronky 13:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't revert your edits, but my last edit did add new text that you may not have liked. I haven't censored you in any way, I incorporated several parts of your version when I rewrote the introduction, and I modified it many times in response to your complaints. The only edit warring has been on your part. It has been your stance that my contributions are categorically invalid, that my concerns about POV are dismissable, and that you will simply find one reason or another to completely remove any change that I make to the article. Also, I think that you may be at or near the point of violating the three revert rule, and note that it doesn't matter whether I used an indicative verb in the subjunctive mode, or some other horrible quality offense. 70.69.42.228 17:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Your basic premise seems to be that this article should promote the FSF, and that you're not willing to tolerate having the article written from an NPOV, or presenting any downsides, controversy, or limitations of the FSF's definition in a visible location. If that is your stance, I think you'll find that a moderator will side with me on the need to present only the facts of what the FSF says rather than presenting what they say as a fact, and presenting any other pertinent facts (positive or negative) and note worthy opposition. 70.69.42.228 17:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm once again going to restore my work that you reverted, and once again I'm going to try to improve the quality in response to your output and resolve your concerns. Once again, I would ask you not to treat this as an edit war to be resolved by finding a technical way to entirely remove my contributions, but rather, to clean up any problems with my edits, to add or restore anything that you feel I omitted, to resolve any factual errors, to add complaint tags if I've made an unproven but not inherently inaccurate claim, and so on. 70.69.42.228 17:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
We're starting again. When you arrived, I let you use this article as a sandbox because I realised you were new (WP:BITE), but that didn't work. So from here on, the article is back to the way it was before you arrived, and you have to make proper edits. If you introduce errors, those will be reverted. This may seem harsh because your current ratio of errors to sentences is about 1:1, but there is no other way. As always, you're welcome to call for moderation any time. Gronky 18:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I can't stop you from trying to make this an edit war, but given that you're the only party that's conducting unilateral reversion and censorship, that you've already violated the three reversion rule (I think), and that what you're insisting on is easily POV, I suspect you're not doing yourself any favor by thinking of this as a dispute on a personal level, treating it as a power struggle, and refusing to try to resolve it in the form of seeing both of our concerns resolved. 70.69.42.228 18:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, now the reversion and "censorship" isn't unilateral. Also, strictly speaking, Gronky has only made two reversion. Anon: If you want to add content that is likely to be challenged, you're going to have to include sources. The version Gronky tentatively favors has a clear advantage in this department (though isn't perfect). Simões (talk/contribs) 20:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Why do you feel that referring to reversions as censorship qualifies as a personal attack? 70.69.42.228 20:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Userbox

I've made an userbox that you can put on your userpage, its {{user free software}}, but the template also takes an optional parameter, in which you can put anything you like, example {{user free software|develops}} or something. -- Frap 18:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

New article: History of free software

I've started a new article, History of free software, to document the way that free software has existed at each point in time during the last half-century or so, and to document the events with major impacts. So it's a timeline kinda article, not an X vs. Y article. Help and references sought. If you have good links to documents by old-timers, that'd be very helpful. Gronky 22:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Unclear logo images

Can't identify which logo is which, can sum1 who knows which is which label them as 'clockwise from bottom left' or something along these linesPledger166 11:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone launched WikiProject Free Software

WikiProject Free Software has been set up. It has many people listing themselves as participants, but it seems to still need some leadership and some action to develop the project and to build momentum. Some people from here might be able to help. Gronky 01:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

What's the neutrality issue?

There's a "POV check" box at the top of the article, which says "See Talk page" - but there's nothing here to explain it. Can someone say what/where the problem is, so that it can be addressed? Thanks. Gronky 18:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I checked that section and made some improvements, and I've asked here for some information on what needs to be checked but have gotten no answer, so I'll remove that tag now. Gronky 18:35, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Improving this page (April)

I decided to read the article through yesterday and found it to be a mess. Information is repeated, sections contain mixes of unrelated info, section titles are inaccurate or meaningless, and there are long tracts of supposition and meandering commentary.

So I'm being bold and putting the like sentences together and inserting titles at each point where the subject changes. Doing this is making the duplicated content obvious, so I'm ending up reducing the number of sentences, and reading each section is revealing many vacuous sentences and unproveable suppositions, which I'm often deleting.

Help appreciated. Do complain if I head in a wrong direction. Gronky 12:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Access to source code condition

I'm reverting again the addition to the intro paragraph "beyond the requirement that the source code must be made available". Software distributed under the X11 licence has no such requirement but is free software. Source code must be available to each user for the software to fulfil the definition, but that requirement does not pass on to the recipient. You could get the software under the X11 licence and never have that requirement, or you could get the software under the GPL and only use and modify the software privately and thus also never have that requirement placed on you. Gronky 20:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

You're right that free software doesn't have to be copylefted, and it can permit deriving non-free software from free software, however, free software as defined by the fsf is only free software if the source code is available. A derived work is non-free if the source code is unavailable. A different wording might make sense, to clarify that free software can be turned into non-free software, but the "access to the source code is a precondition for this" is a part of the fsf's definition. I do understand your point and how my phrasing could seem misleading, I'll try to reword it. 24.65.79.192 20:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
You are explaining what is required of a person who wants to publish software as free software and you are then confusing this with what requirements are passed on to the recipient. In other words, you are confusing a requirement which software must meet in order to be free software as being a requirement which is placed on a recipient of the software. I've corrected this now by splitting the sentence into two sentences. ...but now the paragraph is talking about "source code" before the article reader knows what source code is, or why source code is needed, or what the normal situation is with regard to people having or not having source code. Sure, keep it in the intro, but the earliest place it can be mentioned is after a reader will understand what it means for source code to be required. For now, I haven't moved that sentence out of the first paragraph. Gronky 11:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the requirement that source code be published is the 1st sentence of the 2nd paragraph. So I've deleted the sentence in the 1st paragraph that I made by splitting the sentence which you augmented. Gronky 11:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Now the anon has changed the intro sentence to: "Free software, as defined by the Free Software Foundation, is software that can be used, copied, studied, modified and redistributed with little or no restriction, in part by making its source code (the human-readable form of software) available."
This embodies the same mistake again, the only change is that ambiguity has been introduced so that meaning, and thus the contradiction, will not be as clear to readers. The ambiguity was introduced by using the passive voice for the verb "making ... available". Now the reader doesn't know who has to make the source code available, so do I get those freedoms by me making the source available (like some barter system?) or do I get those freedoms by the distributor making the source available? When I resolved this ambiguity by splitting the sentence into two sentences and explicitly mentioning who the subject of each verb is, the contradiction was clear and couldn't stay. The contradiction is still there, and cannot stay. What is wrong with the requirements of source code being mentioned in the 2nd paragraph? Gronky 21:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Your question was answered in the edit summary. 24.65.79.192 17:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
As an example, imagine an article about cars begins saying. "A car, as defined by the automotive association, is wheels that roll you different places. The automotive association was founded to make wheels that roll available to everyone." and then, in the next paragraph, the article says "A number of parts are a car if it is wheels that roll attached to a chassis with a body, an engine, and a steering wheel." I think there's a similar logical issue with the way you want to phrase this article. It's essentially inaccurate, and in this case POV as it seems to be designed to present what sounds like a complete definition of free software, but that only describes the philanthropic aspect. Like saying "Communism is a movement to bring peace, order, and equality to all people of the world." and glossing over the whole men with guns regulating all private commerce thing. 24.65.79.192 17:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I can't follow your analogies. I can't see how they are analogous to this situation. Please try again to explain why you want source code mentioned in the first paragraph instead of the second? (Would it suffice to join those two paragraphs?) I can't follow you at all. Gronky 23:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
You're stating "free software, as defined by the free software foundation, is" and then you're giving an incomplete and very philanthropic-sounding one-line definition, without the slightest hint that anything is missing, or that there is more to the free software foundation's definition. A sentence like "Free software, as defined by the free software foundation, is software that can be copied." is simply not accurate, because it's phrased as if it defines the entire meaning, which it doesn't, even if it is mentioning a part of the actual definition. 24.65.79.192 23:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I think I might have fixed the problem. What do you think of the new first para? Gronky 11:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
It's more elaborate, but the same problem exists, that you're stating what sounds like a comprehensive summary in the first sentence, but you're omitting something that's laid out in clear language in the FSF's definition of free software, and that is that it is ONLY free software if there is access to the source code. I don't see why that fact is less pertinent than the intended abilities of users. 24.65.79.192 17:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Really, the FSF's own written definition is very concise and practical, I think it would be entirely compatible with readability and journalistic integrity to simply use it here, maybe having one preceding sentence saying The FSF defines free software as follows:. Part of why I suggest using their definition, verbatim, is that it would resolve any disagreement on whether their definition is being accurately represented. 24.65.79.192 17:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The current intro text is wrong. I will fix it again, but am just lacking time. The problem is that you are again confusing requirements and definitions. The text you have put there is like saying that blue cars have a requirement that someone must paint them blue. You wanted the intro to say that some free software comes with a requirement that to avail of some of the freedoms, you have a requirement to distribute the source code. I added that. What else is it that you want now? You are misrepresenting the FSF definition by changing "precondition" into "need". Gronky 08:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Binary Blobs and Bitkeeper

When I read the section about binary blobs, I was surprised it started suddenly discussing the Bitkeeper controversy. I kept reading, expecting it to be connected somehow to the issue of binary blobs, but there was no connection.

If this was for a lack of examples of binary blob controversies, might I suggest we write about graphics and wifi drivers, and the problems they can cause?

Bitkeeper could be made it's own subsection.

I'm purposely not being bold, as I don't want to unduly mess with an article that has obviously reached some stability. Baeksu 08:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

You're quite right, and I think that might have been my mistake. That section title should be fixed - and it would be great if someone began a section on the binary blobs issue. Gronky 10:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge examples section into history

Lists, such as the Examples section of this article, are not very useful in articles. I was thinking about deleting it, but then I had the better idea of merging it into the history section. I'll give this a try. Gronky 12:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Logo image

I have noticed that the logo currently displayed is image:Floss_draft.png, while the corresponding image page says it has been superseded by image:Floss_draft.svg. Moreover, the Free software Portal and WikiProject Free Software tags at the top of this very talk page display the latter (although the WikiProject Free Software page does display the PNG). I even seem to remember that the SVG was displayed some time back (or at least another version of the picture, with the three logos in reverse order). Is there a reason for using the PNG (such as that it looks nicer)? — isilanes (talk|contribs) 18:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

When making the .svg, the artist made two mistakes. One is the position of the icons, and the other is the transparent background of the GNU head (it should be white) which makes that part of the image unseeable when displayed on some backgrounds. When someone gets around to fixing those, then the .svg will really supercede the .png. Got the time and expertise? Gronky 21:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Could this SVG qualify? If so, I'll fix the links to the PNG. — isilanes (talk|contribs) 11:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, thanks for doing that. The name is also good because finally we are out of the "draft" stage :-) Gronky 14:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

ReactOS?

I can't believe that ReactOS is mentioned on the same line as GNU/Linux, BSD, Darwin and OpenSolaris. I'm not even sure that ReactOS can boot on real hardware yet, and it certainly isn't a viable OS at this point. All the other non-OS free software that's listed is also stable/useable, so ReactOS sticks out horrendously. Removing. 129.128.210.68 19:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


GA request

I have looked at this article and I think it is a mature article with indept insights into the concept of Free Software. Is it fair to try to get this article up to GA level? Daimanta 19:46, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Please note, if I don't get a response I will go through with this. Regards, Daimanta 00:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)


Free software ideas and hardware

There's no coherent article on the application of free software philosophy, or free software community practices, to the field of electronics. There are two incoherent articles on related, but not clearly defined, topics (open source hardware and open source design), and there are many articles on specific hardware and technologies (OpenMoko, Simputer, XO-1 (laptop), FPGA, OpenSPARC, etc.). But there is no good article with a well defined topic and relevent content. If I'm wrong, can someone point me to the right article? Otherwise, do people think we could write an article on this? Any ideas/notes/comments about the title or scope? Gronky 18:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Naming section a mess

The new "Naming" section is riddled with weasel words and misconceptions.

The most prominent is the misconception that free software and open-source software are two different sets of things. This is not the case. The only software which is one but not the other is software under the defunct Apple Public Source License 1.0, the defunct Netscape Public License, or an unused licence written by RealNetworks (I can't remember the exact name right now).

Thus, the difference between the two sets, for all practical purposes, its null.

Further "open-source software" was not created to solve an ambiguity problem. It was created to stop FSF's "tub thumping" (in OSI's founding words) about freedom and ethics. Ambiguity was an issue too, but it was at most only half the reason.

Also, talking about conflicting aims of FSF and the open-source community is wrong. The free software community and the open-source community are not separate communities, it is one community containing many varieties of beliefs.

When continuing the development of this section, let's all put thought into exactly what we're writing. Gronky 07:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The Open Source software is almost ever free software, too. That's right. But the free software movement is totally different to the Open Source movement. The community of a specific free software project on the other hand is mostly mixed. --mms 21:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
So, it used to be in my job description to advocate professionally for the position that mms puts forward. I could not have done that job without personally agreeing strongly that there is a fundamental difference between open source and software freedom (I prefer that term to free software, to avoid the English adjective's ambiguities). However, when I step back from my personal beliefs and look at the facts, I see this:
Some people argue that there is a fundamental philosophical difference between open source and free software.
Other people believe that the two are the same thing, and that their support of Open Source is to further the philosophy original promulgated by free software.
Gronky is correct, that, with a few almost irrelevant exceptions, they are talking about the same body of published software, and the difference of opinion is about philosophical views and what philosophy the phrases evoke, and whether the phrases actually do evoke a different philosophy.
I believe, therefore, it's Wikipedia's job to (a) document the difference of opinion and explain why various parts of the community feel the way they do, (b) distill the positions, and (c) link off to good references for further reading. I don't feel that the existing "Naming" section accomplishes this goal. Indeed, I think the best thing for this entry is to remove the "Naming" entry, and place a well cited section under "Controversies" that explain the issues and the arguments made on both sides. This will actually document the facts and give the best possible non-biased understand to readers. I am proposing to do just that unless folks disagree strongly. -- bkuhn 01:07, 15 August 2007 (UTC)