Talk:Free and open source software

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[edit] Should this article exist?

This topic does not exist. "Free software" (X) exists and "open source software" (Y) exists, but the topic "X+Y" does not exist. (I'd even question whether X and Y are sufficiently different to merit separate articles, but that's another discussion.)

"Free and open source software" has no definition - not de facto, not de jure, none. It has no meaning. No one can write anything about it because "it" doesn't exist.

I plan to Afd it but have decided to ask here for comment first. --Gronky 11:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The acronyms FOSS and FLOSS have plenty of community buy-in. Having an article here avoids the strained position of having to awkwardly word things like "free and open source software" all over the place in articles, which doesn't do anyone any good. Chris Cunningham 11:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
You've defended use of the term, but I didn't say that nobody does/should use the term, I said this topic doesn't exist as a distinct topic we can write an article on. --Gronky 12:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
And I've defended the need for an article by pointing out that it negates the need for tortured double-decker links all over the place. Ideally I'd prefer for both free software and open source software to be merged in here due to the oft-pointed-out duplication in subject matter (with free software movement and open source movement being the "ideological / community" articles), but I very much doubt you'd be willing to "dilute" the free software article in this way. Chris Cunningham 12:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
This topic is notable and belongs in Wikipedia. Gronky and I both believe that Free Software is better than other forms of ownership and control of software. I can put it aside when I edit here. He often can not, and usually has a strong POV that is inappropriate when editing Wikipedia. That POV is being expressed here. That POV is damaging to representing Free Software on WP. Lentower 12:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Agreed on all fronts, but despite the odd spat I've edited cooperatively with Gronky on any number of occasions on free software articles and don't see that this needs be any different. Chris Cunningham 13:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Didn't mean to make this sound like a spat. Just a heads-up that Gronky has some problems with maintaining NPOV, and needs a little help with that now and again. Lentower 22:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Of course I disagree with your ad hominem, but that's just off-topic.
Len, you say "This topic is notable". Can you tell me what the topic is? I know there is a thing called "free software", and a thing called "open-source software", but what *thing* is "Free and open source software"? --Gronky 12:00, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

FOSS is freely redistributable. So the joint "thing" contains the two distinct things. The article needs to examine both what they share in common, and how they differ. Many find the difference hard to distinguish. Chris is right, the thing to do is merge all three articles, with a good section on each of the three.This would let the reader understand all three with one read - much like the GNU Emacs article was merged into the Emacs article. Lentower 12:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, now I don't even know if we're discussing the same thing(s). To clarify: the "two distinct things" you refer to, is one free software and the other open-source software?
If so, what has "freely redistributable" got to do with either? And do you mean it in the freeware sense or in the sense used by FreeBSD at the turn of the 80s->90s? (and would it maybe be easier to continue the thread without adding that term?) --Gronky 13:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to wait a few days to respond further, to see what others have to say. If you haven't, review the article. The editors at Wikibooks have written an article on FLOSS. Lentower 23:50, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Review what article? The article for this talk page says nothing about freely redistributable software, and the freely redistributable software article says there are two meanings, so I still don't know which you mean. --Gronky 10:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
My usage is that: free software can only be linked with other free software that meets the terms of the GNU General Public License; open source software can be linked with proprietary software, and often with free software; and FOSS/FLOSS is the super-set that includes both. As I note in the merge section below, all three articles about them claim to be the super-set term. Lentower 23:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
More correct, or at least more common, usage is: free software is aligned with the FSF/GNU idealistic philosophy; open source software is aligned with the OSI/Apache pragmatic goals; and F[L]OSS is both the superset of the two and an attempt to avoid offending either set of partisans. RossPatterson 02:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Ross and I said the same things in different words. Lentower 04:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
You didn't say the same things at all. You gave a personal/non-standard definition of "free software", and RossPatterson commented on who each term is aligned with. --Gronky 00:37, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I haven't read the FLOSS wikibook, and I'm pretty sure I won't have time to in the near future. Is there something in that book that explains your point? Can you point me to that part? This discussion is quite difficult - I think we need to be more precise. --Gronky 10:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
The existence of the book, adds to my point that this topic is notable. The editors wrote a lengthy book about it. FLOSS is just a different spelling of FOSS. Still waiting for others to chime in. Lentower 22:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
The existence of the book proves that some people use that term for the topic. It's an alternative term for the same topic. A quick skim of that book indicates that it's mostly a collage of gnu.org paragraphs - so the authors didn't write a book about "FLOSS", they just wrote/copied about free software and stuck "FLOSS" on the cover. That seems to back up the idea that FLOSS is just an alternative term for free software, not a separate topic. --Gronky 14:37, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Gronky: I have already clearly stated that FOSS/FLOSS is not an alternative term for free software, but a term that covers that and other kinds of software. Please do not put words in my mouth. Lentower 23:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
FOSS and FLOSS cover two kinds of software, "free software" and "open-source software", nothing more, nothing less. Do you agree yes/no? --Gronky 00:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
So you're agreeing that free software and open source software should be merged here, then? Alternative names for free software shouldn't exist as a separate article either, what with Wikipedia not being an organ of the FSF. Chris Cunningham 15:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Chris: You are on the right track here. Lentower 23:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Any merge shouldn't result in translating Wikipedia to FOSS terminology. "FOSS" is just jargon that makes the topic(s) even harder to read about. The long "free software / open source" wording is better because it's at least meaningful. I think "Free and open source" is also confusing for readers because it tells them that these things are different (when we all seem to agree - and I hope I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth here - that, for 99.999% of practical purposes, they're not). "Free software" would be a fine name for a merge, if one is to happen. "Free software (aka open-source software)" would be another non-confusing name. What do you think of those? --Gronky 00:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
You know full well what I think of that suggestion: it's completely unacceptable. When you've got key figures in the community saying things like "Linux has always been Open Source, rather then the crazy Free Software thing" it's obvious that using the FSF's title is contentious. Chris Cunningham 11:31, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New sub section (same thread "Should this article exist?")

Your conclusions in this paragraph do not agree with the concensus the rest of us are developing., nor are they WPian reasons The concept of FOSS/FLOSS developed for notable reasons, as did the concept of both Free Software and Open Source Software. But FS and OSS are more partisian, and it be best if we selected the most neutral term as the non-redirect title for the article. Your reasoning in this paragraph seems very partisian. As an encyclopedia, we owe a clear and neutral description of all these concepts, and the ways that people actually use them, including a clear and neutral description of the controversy, and conflicting uses of the terms to help the reader understand all of the concepts, not give him just a biased view as you propose here. For practical purposes all the concepts are different. Lentower 11:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Consensus? Rubbish. This discussion is barely coherent. You have your own strange definition of free software, which nobody has agreed with. RossPatterson has only commented on the alignment of each term, which was never in question. And Chris is sometimes agreeing with me and sometimes agreeing with you. There's no consensus. 3 of us have suggested that some kind of merger could work, but each of us has a different view of what form the merger should take. --Gronky 11:33, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Gronky's right - don't count my comments as agreeing that this is a good idea. I actually agree with Lentower's comment below re: the difficulty of doing it well. RossPatterson 21:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Your use of the word "rubbish" is insulting, as are the tone and many other phrasses in that paragraph. Far more "ad hom" then my pointing out that you have a POV that isn't neutral. Please be civil, as required by WP guidelines. You are also repeating yourself, which doesn't help. Some brand new points, or please just be patient and quiet, and wait to hear what others have to say. Lentower 12:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for the "rubbish" comment, I've crossed that out now. This thread has just been very frustrating. In all this talking, there doesn't seem to be any progress being made on the substance of the "a merge" proposal. Rather, the more we discuss our understandings, the more we seem to diverge. So seeing "consensus" announced for a merge of two important articles is kinda scary when all I see is support from two people for a vague proposal. --Gronky 22:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

There are parts where I disagree with you, and parts where I disagree with Chris. It seems that you and Chris also don't share any agreement on the substance of the topic other than that yous disagreement with me, so when two-person "consensus" is announced, it seems baseless.

Merge-wise I'm in complete agreement with Lentower. I'm waiting for more people to chime in before doing any heavy lifting, but I've got a pretty clear idea of what's going to be done. Chris Cunningham 11:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The heavy-lifting should include finding other articles needing the MergeFrom tag, and a look at the REDIRECTS on all MergeFrom articles to include a list of terms and concepts in use. Both MergeTo and MergeFrom templates have to be set up, so discussion all happens in one section on the MergeTo Talk page . The templates do the wrong thing by default. The should also be a pointer section on each MergeFrom talk page. Lentower 12:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
A real consensus would be needed first. Three editors arguing in a dark corner and two saying they're in agreement is hardly a foundation for merging articles as important as free software and open-source software. --Gronky 13:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 18 October 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

[edit] Merge FS + OSS here

The above discussion indicates so far, that two of the three of us, have concluded that Free Software and Open Source Software be merged in here. Comments from others, especially those who haven't commented yet? Lentower 12:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a merge box on Open Source Software suggesting it's merger with Open Source. Beyond that all three articles assume that their term is the all-encompassing one. It will take careful Solomon-esque editing to merge all three of these. Free Software and Open Source Software also have their unique and different POVs that are currently NOT neutral. Lentower 22:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I'm open to Gronky's suggestion that while the movements may have stark ideological differences, there's little aside from legal minutae which differentiate the two broad camps of software. I'd rather try a merge than continue the proliferation of smaller articles which are devoted to semantic nitpicking and agenda-advancing. Chris Cunningham 10:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
This is patently false. Free Software is about the freedom of the software and Open Source is about open, colaborative development practices. While liberal licences are common to both movements, the goals, views and ideologies are totally different. To suggest that you merge them to avoid "semantic nitpicking and agenda-advancing" is ridiculous on two counts: 1) it is Wikipedia's job to differentiate (or "nitpick" as you call it) between different issues, and 2) these organisations clearly have different roadmaps/adgendas and to ignore that out of a desire to avoid "agenda-advancing" (whatever that term means in this context) is clearly bogus. Nslater (talk) 12:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The legal "minutae" effect seriously how the software can be used for further development. Classic free software can not be linked with proprietary software. Classic open source software can. This difference is worth millions of dollars to proprietary software developers, and is noteable for that reason. A merge has to make this clear from a NPOV. Lentower 13:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Where are you getting the definition of "classic free software" from? Even in 1985, RMS labeled X Windows System as free software. --Gronky 00:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
He was talking about the difference between copyleft and permisive licencing as these two forms of legal protection are praised individually by the Free Software movement and the Open Source movement respectively. Nslater (talk) 13:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Are you also proposing a merged article on F(L)OSS Movements? Be good for the encylopedia. Lentower 14:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I am a bit ambivalent a bout the main FS and OSS articles coming here. I do think that Alternative terms for free software can be cleaned up a lot and merged here & would suggest that this would be a good first step whether or not we mere FS and OSS too. --Karnesky 02:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Given that the body of work that can be variously called Free Software, Open Source Software, F/L/OSS, F/OSS, "that software licensed such that it satisfies the DFSG", etc. etc. is only one thing really (with very minor blurring around the edges), it seems to make sense to have a single page for it. The various movements, organisations, and communities that produce this stuff are another matter. Choosing the name for the stuff is a real problem, with the current suggestion resulting in anachronisms like the FSF page reading: "From its founding until the mid-1990s, FSF's funds were mostly used to employ software developers to write free and open source software for the GNU Project." (given that the term Open Source apeared on the scene in 1998). I'd support it if it were called "Free Software (aka Open Source Software)" --Phil Hands (talk) 12:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
FWIW, that title is also what I suggest. --Gronky (talk) 15:56, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
There is very little chance that such a contrived title would be chosen. The FOSS moniker sees widespread use these days, and to pick one or the other while sticking the alternative in parentheses smacks of purism. I'd pessimistically note that the camp which supports this naming convention has rather heavy representation on Wikipedia, however, given the opposition comments downthread. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Surely free software or open source software is just software under a suitable license? Wouldn't it be better to have a merged article about the licenses rather than about the software? After all, the first line is pretty much inevitably going to be "Free and open source software is software released under a license which..." so why not "A free or open source license is ..."? This would make the article more tightly focused on its subject. NicM 08:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC).
I am all ears for further consolidation. The serious proliferation of free software ideology articles has to be fixed at some point, so any moves towards this are welcome. I'd rather consolidate things and split them back out when necessary than continue the current mess of overlapping articles. Chris Cunningham 09:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Just to get the history right: There used to be more than six articles about fs, oss, foss, floss, libre s, fs/oss, etc. I got it down to two. Thumperward has brought it back up to three.
IMO, this article should be in a sandbox or userspace, not in Wikipedia mainspace. --Gronky 12:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
IMO, the other three should be merged here. See the AfD. Lentower 02:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, a merger is in order. Lasse Havelund (talk) 12:23, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Not agreed. A merger for Free Software and Open Source (two completely different socio-political movements/groups) is the most absurd thing I have witnessed on Wikipedia. These two groups of people/organisations have totally different legal incorporations, governing bodies, views, ideologies, methods, members, leaders and practices. The ONLY thing that ties them together is that they both concern software to some extent and that they both use copyright in some way or another to advance their goals. Nslater (talk) 13:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Not agreed. Merging Free Software into the Open Source page would be incoherent given Open Source's public and deliberate break with Free Software. --Rob Myers (talk) 13:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Not agreed. A merger of the articles would result in conceptual incoherence given the differences in purposes, philosophy, method and consequences between the Free Software Movement and Open Source. To conflate the essential distinctions by merging the articles would be misleading, and entirely unhelpful to serious thinking about this matter. Ammonius.Grammaticus (talk) 14:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I disagree strongly. Each is, by far, large enough to warrants it's own articles. In fact, various aspects of each is already is discussed in depths, effectively, and separately on dozens of articles! Merging would be, at best, foolish and awkward. —mako๛ 16:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Not agreed. It is well established that the software freedom movement and the open source movement are separate in their goals and philosophies, but share similar methodologies for achieving and realising them, and people involved in each movement typically co-operate on writing software despite their motivational differences. I'm surprised that, as a long time Free Software Foundation staffer in the 1980s and early 1990s, Len isn't aware of this. Abattis (talk) 02:44, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Use community and consensus, not brute force

I haven't yet read this soliloquy, but I must object to the brute force manner of dumping the text here and converting 10 or so redirects to suddenly point here (when they already pointed to mature articles which were usually unambiguously the right thing to be pointing to).

Given your history of using brute force to get your changes into Wikipedia, I have to signal right now that this is not acceptable. Wikipedia uses a community process. Please respect it instead of trying to get around with edit floods. --Gronky (talk) 14:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

They pointed to a merged article, and were changed to point directly to the section containing the text they formerly redirected to. The merge is obviously a good idea (it covers almost all of the same ground as this article, and most other languages only have one article for both), so I thought I'd be bold and change it. Furthermore, this article used to redirect to the page which it has been merged with, and that was your idea. Changing the redirects back means they're now broken (they redirect twice).
As for the "brute force" charge, it's utterly false. In the section above, User:NicM and User:Lentower agree with a merge. Chris Cunningham (talk) 14:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The double redirects are your fault, so don't use them as a justification for proclaming there's no going back. Not only that but they're trivial to fix too. Two statements in support is a drop in the context of the number of edits and editors involved in the two top-tier Wikipedia articles you've decided to merge. --Gronky (talk) 14:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
There's no minimum level of consensus. 4:1 (Karnesky, AdrianM, NicM, me supporting, you opposing) over ten weeks is plenty for an uncontroversial proposal which is in line with the way other language WPs approach the subject; you opposed this one while professing not even to have read "this soliloquay" anyway, having seemingly forgotten it was ever discussed. Chris Cunningham (talk) 14:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Ten weeks of inactivity. That shows lack of interest, not representivity. What's more, the request for deletion was a 5:4 decision, with 3 of those 5 people saying it was proposed too soon and it should be kept to see what happens to it. This was followed by months of silence. It could be argued that their keep condition was not met. But again, here I'm objecting to your edit flood tactic, not the content of the page. I will read it and try to figure out what it's supposed to be. Is it a replacement for "alternative terms for free software" or is it to be a merge target for free software and open-source software? --Gronky (talk) 15:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
A merge of "alternative terms". The whole old alt terms article is a subsection of this one. Really though, I think it's a remarkable reading of what transposed (a majority for moving, together with a number of comments saying "it's too soon", followed by two months of near total insertia) to suggest that being bold and making the move was not a perfectly acceptable decision played well within WP policy. For the "edit flood" thing, what was I supposed to do, not fix the redirects while I was merging? I'd appreciate it if I wasn't loudly denigrated for such things in edit summaries in future, thanks.Chris Cunningham (talk) 15:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
This is incredible. You did all this just to merge the alternative terms article into this one? So, you...
  1. Convert a redirect to the alternative terms article into a stub
  2. Make controversial proposals and then let it sleep for 10 weeks
  3. Then cut and past the alternative terms text in here and make alternative terms a link here
So this was all just one long rename? If you want to rename an article, there is a Wikipedia process for that. I can't believe you've wasted so much of people's time for this miniscule agenda. --Gronky (talk) 16:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Errr, it obviously isn't a simple rename (from the page history). If it had been a simple rename, I'd have gone through the usual process. And that's a personal attack, and completely unwarranted by my good faith in responding. Chris Cunningham (talk) 16:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm only pointing out that you are contradicting yourself and using claimed consensus for another proposal (merge FS and OSS) as support for this current activity which you now explain to be completely different. You cannot claim contradictory things and then complain and claim victimhood when I point this out. --Gronky (talk) 16:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I am referring to comments such as Karnesky's above ("I do think that Alternative terms for free software can be cleaned up a lot and merged here") and on the merger, and Lentower's where he suggests that all three pages be merged here (implying that merging one would be, at the least, a good start). And my "victimhood" is at being told I am "wasting people's time" on a "miniscule agenda"; this is not pointing something out, it is attacking me personally. Chris Cunningham (talk) 16:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Continued...

(I made a new subsection to keep this thread readable)

You say this new page "obviously isn't a simple rename", but I fail to see what is different between the text that has appeared in this article and the text that was already in the Alternative terms article. Can you explain the difference between what you've put into this article and what was already in the Alternative terms article? --Gronky (talk) 10:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

"the text that has appeared" is obviously the same; it's a merge, that's how these things work. It was a 3k article, and a 14k article was merged in, so while a considerable amount of the text remains the same it is now wrapped in a layer of objectivity which changes the focus of the article. The reason is that, per the discussion at the other page, the alt terms article takes a subjective look at the issue from the POV of the Free Software Foundation, while this article purports to address it objectively from all sides. I'm going to work on improving the merge so that the article contains less duplication / contradiction in future. Chris Cunningham (talk) 10:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merging different things

Let merge the definition of apples and oranges. They are all fruits! :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.2.100.57 (talk) 18:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merging versus disambig

I'm of the opinion that making this a disambig rather confuses the issue. I'd rather we tried to merge things here, rather than split them all out again. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

There's no support for merging anything here. How does a disambig confuse the issue? --Gronky (talk) 10:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
We've both argued on numerous occasions that the two concepts are not really distinct ideas; at best, they're two sides of the same coin. So to "disambiguate" them means that something described as "FOSS" must be one or the other. This is rarely true. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:42, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Free Software and Open Source Software

As they are from 99% the same things, I proposed a merge. Let a hearty debate go on. Hopefully, with a nice result! I know there were some efforts like this in the past, greatly reducing the article # mostly about FOSS. However, time has come to make the really final cut now.--Kozuch (talk) 16:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

"Open source software" is just a marketing term pushed by corporations who want to sell free software without impacting their selling of proprietary software. The free software article should mention that free software is often called "open-source software", but WP should not rename free software to "open-source software". It is also misleading for WP to create a topic "free and open-source software" since that implies that they are two topics "X+Y" when the real relationship is "X (aka Y)". I would support a merge of these two articles under the title of "free software", or under the title of "free software (aka open-source software)". --Gronky (talk) 10:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Isnt "free software (aka open-source software)" pretty much the same as "Free and open source software"? I wonder how people can make things difficult. Wikipedia is here to bring accessible knowledge to everyone, and with titles like "free software (aka open-source software)" you are not going to achieve this at all. Let us clear this controversy in the first sentence of the article.--Kozuch (talk) 12:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
If they're so similar, let's go with my wording :-) The title "free and open source software" implies there are two topics X+Y. That's misleading. --Gronky (talk) 12:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I totaly agree with Gronky —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.14.194 (talk) 20:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
You are right, the term topic "FOSS" means nothing and is not used at all - [1], [2], Template:FOSS (sarcasm).--Kozuch (talk) 11:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
It is a term that exists, but Wikipedia does not exist to document every term in existence. Wikipedia describes topics. Free software is a topic, Open Source Initiative is a topic, the open source marketing campaign is a topic, alternative terms for free software is a topic. "FOSS" is not a topic, it's just a term. --Gronky (talk) 12:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Striking out "term" and replacing it by "topic" doesn' change much. There is software that exists, and many packages are notable. And there is a concept of giving people certain freedoms related to these packages, that that concept is notable and is described in free software. There are various terms which some people use as alternatives for "free software", and they include "FOSS", "FLOSS", "libre software", "software libre", "oss/fs", but each of these terms is just a term and doesn't deserve it's own Wikipedia article. --Gronky (talk) 12:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
[Note: I only noticed the "sarcasm" tag now - maybe I replied too seriously :-] --Gronky (talk) 12:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Free software and open-source software are two separate concepts. See this essay, Why “Open Source” misses the point of Free Software, by Richard Stallman. Since there have been no contributions to this discussion in over a week, I am removing the notice. 98.217.44.153 (talk) 15:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] About the FOSS redir

Whatever side of the merging debate each of us is on, we have to avoid harming Wikipedia while we have the debate.

So I'll start by saying that if a merge of free software and open-source software does happen, then I will support redirecting FOSS, FLOSS, libre software, etc. to that merged article. I'm not contesting that those names should link to a combined article if/when one exists. But, in the mean time, while we're havin this debate, those names should point somewhere useful. Users who click on those links do not want to come see this stub article. They want to read about free software, open-source software, or the naming debate described at alternative terms for free software.

So, in the interests of insulating Wikipedia readers from the debate we're having (which we should probably be having in a sandbox rather than on the live articles), I would like to change FOSS and FLOSS back to redirecting to alternative terms for free software. And if/when a merge happens, I will support changing those redirects to point to the merged article. I've raised this on WP:Redirects for discussion --Gronky (talk) 14:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

That's putting the cart before the horse. While this article exists, it is obviously the correct target for an abbreviation of its own title. "Insulating readers" to the outcome of that discussion is the exact opposite of what we should be doing. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Free and open source software" ?

Free Software is software released under the GPL, like Wikipedia. Open Source software is software that everyone can contribute to, like Amazon.com's costumer reviews. - They do -NOT- belong in the same article. They are two entirely different things. DCEvoCE (talk) 03:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I would be interested to know where you got those definitions from. --Gronky (talk) 21:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Just my own examples which I hope explain the difference. DCEvoCE (talk) 21:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
The definitions we're using are The Free Software Definition and the Open Source Definition. --Gronky (talk) 21:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Very good links. Thanks for posting them. I still don't think they do explain the difference. This link does explain it much better than I can: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html DCEvoCE (talk) 21:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I like that essay very much too. Stallman explains the differences in the focuses and philosophies attached to the terms, and he asks people to use the term "free software" so that users of the software hear about the values of the free software movement, but for the software itself, he says "the two terms describe almost the same category of software". --Gronky (talk) 21:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, even when I am a fan of RMS, I just cant understand why he cant accept the "joint venture" FOSS (or FLOSS) term. He would help everybody to stop fighting about such a little (stupid) issues like naming is. And therefore Wikipedia should help here out and finally coin the joined term.--Kozuch (talk) 21:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, Wikipedia is not the place to "coin" terms. --Hamitr (talk) 23:36, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
What do you think consensus makes then?--Kozuch (talk) 00:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
This part is interesting:
Under the pressure of the movie and record companies, software for individuals to use is increasingly designed specifically to restrict them. This malicious feature is known as DRM, or Digital Restrictions Management (see DefectiveByDesign.org), and it is the antithesis in spirit of the freedom that free software aims to provide. And not just in spirit: since the goal of DRM is to trample your freedom, DRM developers try to make it hard, impossible, or even illegal for you to change the software that implements the DRM.
Yet some open source supporters have proposed “open source DRM” software. Their idea is that by publishing the source code of programs designed to restrict your access to encrypted media, and allowing others to change it, they will produce more powerful and reliable software for restricting users like you. Then it will be delivered to you in devices that do not allow you to change it.
This software might be “open source,” and use the open source development model; but it won't be free software, since it won't respect the freedom of the users that actually run it. If the open source development model succeeds in making this software more powerful and reliable for restricting you, that will make it even worse. DCEvoCE (talk) 22:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


(Run into an edit conflict with your above post and the following:) I think the thing is that Free Software is what the name says: Free Software - free as in freedom, and that obviously includes the source code. Open Source software on the other hand to most people is just that: Software with a public source code. Two entirely different things. DCEvoCE (talk) 22:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


From Stallman's introduction, "Common misunderstandings of “free software” and “open source”:
Here is how writer Neal Stephenson defined “open source”:
"Linux is “open source” software meaning, simply, that anyone can get copies of its source code files."
I don't think he deliberately sought to reject or dispute the “official” definition. I think he simply applied the conventions of the English language to come up with a meaning for the term. The state of Kansas published a similar definition:
"Make use of open-source software (OSS). OSS is software for which the source code is freely and publicly available, though the specific licensing agreements vary as to what one is allowed to do with that code."
Open source supporters try to deal with this by pointing to their official definition, but that corrective approach is less effective for them than it is for us. The term “free software” has two natural meanings, one of which is the intended meaning, so a person who has grasped the idea of “free speech, not free beer” will not get it wrong again. But “open source” has only one natural meaning, which is different from the meaning its supporters intend. So there is no succinct way to explain and justify the official definition of “open source.” That makes for worse confusion. DCEvoCE (talk) 22:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
The thing is, these aren't broadly-accepted definitions. Stallman's own position on the issue seems to vary from declaring OSS to be a subset of free software and declaring that the two are separate. I believe that the most common position is that they are basically two names for the same thing, with the additional caveat that the term "free software" makes an explicit guarantee of some freedoms which are only implied by the term "open source". Regardless, I don't believe we need two different articles on the two terms (or indeed five, which is about as many as we have now) and I do believe that the catch-all term "free and open source software" sees sufficient popular use that it would be an acceptable title. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect to Alternative terms of free software

Personally, I think Free Software and Open Source are very different ideas (although the same software) - e.g. the history section would be significantly different - so I think they both deserve their own articles. However, this article is not a significant movement or way of thinking about things, it just tries to group the two together. Therefore, I would say redirect this article to Alternative_terms_for_free_software#FLOSS. What do you think? --Bjwebb (talk) 16:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

  • support I support the proposed redirect. It would reduce duplication of material in Wikipedia. --Gronky (talk) 18:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
  • support I was thinking of something very similar. --Hamitr (talk) 19:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The ideas are different though the software is the same - kind of schizoid to me... can not support this.--Kozuch (talk) 20:42, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
    FWIW, my thinking for that is that the ideas should go on free software movement, open source initiative etc. --Gronky (talk) 21:04, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
    Great, we are slowly getting there - what remains then when the two different idea(lism)s go to there? Isnt it one and ever same "Free and open source SOFTWARE"?--Kozuch (talk) 21:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
    I think the ideas and idealims have already been moved to the articles I mentioned. Yes, the sets of software are practically the same. The software is free software. "open-source software" is a marketing campaign for free software (that's how Open Source Initiative describes it[3]). The concept/topic for the software is "free software". --Gronky (talk) 22:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I am still undecided and thus can not support this merger right now because I am starting to realize the enormous difficulties and dangers involved to further differentiate between OSS and Free Software. It now seems that this article could have the potential to help with clarifying the confusion on this topic.
    Let's take the OSS article. How would you guys reword the following introduction ? (not a rhetoric question)
    Open source software is computer software for which the human-readable source code is made available under a copyright license (or arrangement such as the public domain) that meets the Open Source Definition. This permits users to use, change, and improve the software, and to redistribute it in modified or unmodified form. It is often developed in a public, collaborative manner. Open source software is the most prominent example of open source development and often compared to user generated content.[1]
    As you can see, judging by this introduction, OSS is defined as its own kind of software, no links to the Free Software movement / Copyleft / GPL, etc., instead the authors defined OSS as software that "permits" the user to change the software - which by definition of Free Software would be your right to do (as one of the four freedoms in Free Software). DCEvoCE (talk) 16:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
    I think what I would propose would be to merge most "Open Source" related articles into the Free software articles, as OSS is just another (wrong) label for Free Software. DCEvoCE (talk) 17:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)