Talk:Free City of Danzig

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[edit] Free City of Danzig

Talk:Gdansk/Vote/discussion

The English name of the city is Gdańsk so the English name of the political body is Free City of Gdańsk'

The English name of the city today is Gdańsk; the English name when it was a free city was Danzig. Ergo, Free City of Danzig is correct. No English speakers referred to the city as Gdańsk before 1945. Nor did the inhabitants of Danzig. But the city of Danzig no longer exists – nor do its inhabitants, with a few exceptions (Cf. Günter Grass).

Sca 21:45, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

We do not write this encyclopedia in 1945 but now, ergo "Free City of Gdańsk" is correct. Also 15% of its inhabitants called it Gdańsk. Space Cadet 22:07, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

And, however, the vote clearly states to use Danzig. Ameise -- chat 02:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Dzień dobry, Space Cadet! Co słychać?

Yes, we ARE WRITING (English present perfect tense, my friend) it now, but we are writing about something that doesn't exist now -- something which formerly existed as the Freie Stadt Danzig, which was universally known IN ENGLISH as the Free City of DANZIG, and we are writing it for the ENGLISH Wikipedia. Changing borders and populations is possible; changing history is not. (Cf.The Danzig Trilogy, by Günter Grass -- not "the Gdansk Trilogy," etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum, and so forth, blah blah.)

Czesc!

PS: Following your own logic, I assume you refer to the capital of Lithuania as Vilnius, not Wilno, right?

Sca 19:14, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

"WE ARE WRITING" is Present Continuous, not Present Perfect, my friend. Present Perfect would be "WE HAVE WRITTEN". I can't believe I have to educate you on the basics of English language. I guess, I overestimated you. But going back to the case, let's see if You can follow this (I'm typing slowly, because I know you're reading slowly):

Côte d'Ivoire used to be called in English "Ivory Coast", but now, even in reference to that period in history, we consistently use Côte d'Ivoire. Do ... you ... under - stand?

Finally the case of Vilnius: I am a strong supporter of consistent use of names such as Vilnius, Lviv and Hrodna. As soon as we straighten out Gdańsk (and the Free City of Gdańsk, for that matter) I will immediately edit Emilia Plater to say that she was born in Vilnius. You have my word. Cześć! Space Cadet 21:36, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Binding Wikipedia naming convention

Wikipedia naming convention (binding) suggests to use the English name or the native name: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Use_English_words Use English words Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form. Rationale and specifics: See: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)

[edit] Non binding discussed proposal

For the current dicussions on the propoised standards plase also see also:

Mestwin of Gdansk 00:50, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The "Free City of Danzig" is a historical entity. That is it's name, when it existed, in the 19th and early 20th century. Changing it is rewriting history and nonsensical. Maximus Rex 01:16, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This should be named after whatever its official title was at the time. Are we to rename the Battle of Stalingrad to the Battle of St Petersburg because that is its name now? G-Man 01:22, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Er...Battle of Volgograd. St Petersburg was Leningrad. john 01:29, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

My apologies :) G-Man 13:28, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Agree with Maximus Rex. Practice at en has been to use historical names in their historical period anyway, though with a mention of current names, so the change doesn't fit our usual naming practices. Jamesday 00:31, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There is some small discrepancies between the english and the polish article concerning population of Free City of Danzig. According to the english article about the interwar period 90% of population was german and 4-8% of population was polish. According to the polish article 10% of the population was polish, german population was in majority.

[edit] Shame on those trying to promote the name Free City of Gdansk

We've repeatedly had discussion over whether this article should be at Free City of Danzig or Free City of Gdansk. The consensus was pretty strongly in favor of the former. As such, it is extremely poor behavior to repeatedly revert to Free City of Gdansk without any discussion, especially since this amounts to a cut and paste move. If you think it should be changed, feel free to go to Wikipedia:Requested moves and suggest it, or discuss it here on the talk page. I doubt you'll have much luck, but obviously you have every right to argue whatever position you want. What you don't have the right to do is willfully ignore consensus and engage in a revert war in order to secure your preferred presentation. Extremely poor behavior. john k 18:25, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Space Cadet, for being mature about this. You'll notice that my remark was not directed as to the merits of using either name, but directed rather to questions of process. Of course, I disagree with the substance, but as I said in my post, anyone has the right to suggest that we title it another way. I'm happy to argue aimlessly with you about it for a few days, if you'd like. My point was that just doing cut and past moves and engaging in revert wars, when you don't have a consensus for the change, is bad form and bad behavior. john k 20:57, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bierut decrees

"One of the major tools of the program of mass expulsion were the so called Bolesław Bierut laws. The Bierut laws declared all mobile and immobile private property of ethnic Germans as Polish state property. Every inhabitant was only allowed to take a bag containing no more than 20 kg of private belongings, excluding watches, money and other goods of value. The Bierut laws also declared all crimes including rape and murder against Germans as legal. [...] Till today the Republic of Poland declines to prosecute these war crimes or to resturn stolen private property. Both crime complexes constitute a massive violation of the The Hague Landwar Convention (of 1907) which was signed by Poland in 1920."

This was added by Matthead. After removal, it was reverted back by Chris_73. The text above was taken from some German propaganda. Chris_73 is also known for many other controversial actions like removing information on Wehrmacht war crimes or renaming Polish cities names to German names. They both are from Germany. Unfortunately Chris_73 is an admnistrator, so there's nothing we, humble users, can do about the German pov articles. I know I'll be banned by Chris for this, but I had to get attention of English administrators. (by User:Ak47K)

The so called Bierut decrees issued on February 28 1945 with additional laws from March 6 1945, January 3 1946, and March 24 1946 declared all mobile and immobile private property of ethnic Germans as Polish state property. It is even mentioned on Bolesław Bierut, and described on Pursuit of Nazi collaborators#Poland. Maybe we should even have an article on Bierut decrees? I am not sure about the Hague Landwar Convention, probably every country in europe violated these during WW2, starting with Germany. However, removing the complete text related to the Bierut laws was not correct, hence I reverted you. BTW, the czech equivalent are the Beneš decrees-- Chris 73 | Talk 21:22, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, maybe we should have an article on Bierut decree, but I'm afraid that someone is going to write some lies again. In Bierut decree there's nothing about 20 kg of private belongigs or all crimes against Germans to be legal(are you serious!?). Bierut decree (known as Warsaw decree, rarely used, because of another Warsaw decree) is about rebuilding Warsaw only, so it shouldn't even be here on Danzig article. By Bierut decree former owners have been disowned from their right to ownership (Poles, Germans, everyone) - in order to rebuild Warsaw. This law is still valid (no comment on this one).Ak47K

I removed the mentioning of the 20kg etc, since I could not find a reference. I also removed the Hague Landwar Convention sentence. According to the German Wiki article on the topic (which went through a lot of discussion on its talk page), crimes against Germans were also exempted, so I kept this sentence. Is this better for you? -- Chris 73 | Talk 14:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

You left the most controversial sentence and there's rather a big difference beetwen German and English aritcles. I suggest to write about this sentence just like it is in the German wiki: Abusing placed at the German population were exempt from punishment.Ak47K

Done. Hope this is OK with you -- Chris 73 | Talk 16:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's ok now. Thank you. Ak47K


[edit] Dubious

  • and it is estimated that more then 90 % percent of the pre-war population was killed or expulsed by Soviet and Polish troops on the end of the wa

Estimated by whom ? I want a credible researcher or comission with citations since it seems like German nationalist propaganda. --Molobo 13:26, 2 March 2006 (UTC)



  • The mass expulsion was connected to massive war crimes by Soviet and Polish troops

What war crimes ? Please name comission, scholary evidence and with citations please. Also this seems a bit impossible-I don't think any Polish troops were located at Gdańsk-with most of them being Germany at the time. Please name Soviet units and Polish ones that are supposed to be involved and trials or research against them. --Molobo 11:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Systematical mass rapes and executions created an atmosphere of terror

Again. According to whom ? Please show documented and credible research proving they were mass rapes and executions. Again with citations pleas. -Molobo 11:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


  • Poland engaged in a program of mass expulsion of all Germans from the city

Not really, those with technical knowledge were always chosen or even forced to remain.This statement is untrue. --Molobo 11:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

  • The Bierut laws declared all mobile and immobile private property of ethnic Germans as Polish state property, and excempted crimes against the German population from punishment

First of all ALL Polish citizens had their property confiscated, so its POV to single out Germans.

  • As to excempted crimes against the German population from punishment-if you are so sure about it please give appropriate passage from Bierut Laws that states this.

--Molobo 11:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] End of the Napoleonic-era Free City

I've just given the section on the Napoleonic-era state a bit of a polish, and noticed in passing that it was stated as having come to an end on "22 January 1813/1815". The "1815" part presumably refers to the Congress of Vienna (although I can't find a reference to the city in the Final Act?), but the first date seems extraordinarily precise. Can someone provide some details regarding this? Silverhelm 05:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC).

It does look precise. [1] has:
  • January - 29 November 1813 - Siege of Danzig (East Prussia), Poland
  • 22 January 1813 - Prussian Court moves to Breslau (Silesia), Poland

[edit] Vagueness about the 1933 elections

As of this moment, the article states, "In May 1933, the Nazi Party won the local election in the city." This doesn't sound right. Typically, a party might win control with a certain number/percentage of seats in play, but a party does not win an election per se. The next sentence says, "they [the Nazis] received 57 percent of the vote," which suggests they won 57 percent of the seats in an unspecified body. What was the election in question? A city council? The Senate of Danzig (which is referenced in another article linking to this page)? The election details should be specified. The answer might be something like, "In May 1933, the Nazi Party took control of the Senate of Danzig in an election where it won 57 percent of the seats." However, not knowing the details and not having any reference books about this subject, I don't want to make the edit myself. Perhaps someone with greater knowledge of this period and subject can edit accordingly. 207.69.137.207 06:09, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

at [2] several election results can be found. I'm wondering, in several elections 'Kommunistische Partei' is listed. Is that the KPD? In 1935 the result explicitly stated KPD. --Soman (talk) 23:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Split?

Since this article currently covers two city states based around Gdansk, would it make sense to have two separate articles instead? As for article names, I suggest:

  • Republic of Danzig - 1807-1815
  • Free City of Danzig - 1920-1939

This article, in its current form, describes the 20th century state more than the one from the 19th. By splitting the article, both states can be given equal emphasis. - 52 Pickup 18:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

For example, this is done in the Dutch Wikipedia: nl:Vrije Stad Danzig (1807-1814) and nl:Vrije Stad Danzig (1920-1939) - 52 Pickup 18:15, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Since there were no objections, I have created a separate article for the Napoleonic state. It can be found at Free City of Danzig (Napoleonic). - 52 Pickup 13:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] exile government

The article Government in exile mentions that there was a government in exile of the Free City of Danzig. But there is no indication of that in the article itself. Any clarifications? --Soman (talk) 23:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)