Talk:Free-Will

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[edit] Single article > 3+ articles

Since there is little merit in scattering information related to essentially one company over three or more individual pages (especially with relatively little information available in general), I have merged the sub-division related articles with this one. In the future, the Sub-divisions section can be easily expanded with sub-sections in order to give an overview over the operations of the individual brands. There was some information in the PS Company article (regarding management staff and history), which is presently not covered by this one. It should be re-implemented with respective citations. - Cyrus XIII 13:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Firewall Div.

I suggest reconsidering the wording that Dir en grey is the only band under Firewall. Though it used to be true that Firewall Div. exclusively delt with Dir en grey, that is no longer true. For several years they've been releasing things from Baroque and even released the American artist John 5's Virtigo cd in Japan under Firewall. This information is rather hard to find now, but I remember there being a huge uproar over other people being released under it when it happened. I did find confirmation of Barouqe under the new releases at their site: http://www.pigmy.jp/ If I remember correctly, while Baroque was formerly of S'Cube div, they switched to Firewall Div. for their final few releases as a band. These non Dir en grey releases are also released with Sony, just like the Dir en grey cds/dvds. Saka 14:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I have changed the article accordingly. Information regarding the John 5 release (interesting album, by the way) will probably turn up sooner or later. - Cyrus XIII 14:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I did find this link on John 5, which clearly lists it as being under Firewall Div., though I'm not sure the point is even relevant to the article, and further confirmation for baroque this link where most of the cds and dvds available are from Firewall, though some are from S'Cube. Saka 04:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Extasy East vs Free Will west

  • It is pretty normal for non-english wikipedia articles to be created from translations of English into another language. The information in the first paragraph is based on the Japanese article: 80年代後半から90年代にかけて多くの人気を博したヴィジュアル系ロックバンドが所属していた事により、昔は「東のエクスタシー、西のフリーウィル」とも呼ばれていた。ちなみにエクスタシーとはYOSHIKIの主催するEXTASY RECORDSの事。Denaar 08:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes, and that's a big problem. This way information is unquestioningly handed back and forth the different wikis, even if the original articles were completely unsourced. - Cyrus XIII 15:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Hmm, there are 58 mentions of the phrase 東のエクスタシー、西のフリーウィル on a google search - mostly blogs. I couldn't find a source I regonize as reliable; but at the same time, it seems like a good indication the phrase is or was in use (since the JP wiki states it was used 80 - 90, before the www was around, its a decent number of hits.) Unforunately most of the reliable sites I know of focus on current music. Translating articles from the original language the subject matter is from into another language isn't designed to give a complete article, but just to give the article a start. Denaar 05:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arrests

It is written exactly as the source states it. Do not add anything else to it, unless you have a source to provide that information. 122.49.175.210 14:22, 23 September 2007

Please refrain from removing content from articles (like in this case, an infobox), without providing a rationale or attempting a discussion. Also, calling the contributions of other editors "nonsense" goes against our behavioral guidelines of assuming good faith and remaining civil. Furthermore, try not to add information to an article that is not covered by the source you provide them with. The English source does not state, that the defrauded money was used to cover the costs of any band in particular and the Japanese one does not even mention any bands by name. Per Wikipedia's policy for biographies of living persons, we cannot implicate people to be funded by illegally obtained resources, without proper references. - Cyrus XIII 15:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with the inclusion of this information period - right now it is just allegations. Note that we shouldn't slant wikipedia toward recentism, aka, not much detail should be put toward this. In the end, this should be a long article with just the one bump along the way, it shouldn't be an article devoted to the incident because that would be pushing a negative point of view. Most of the writing about Free Will out there is positive, so having an entirely negative article would be incorrect. Denaar 15:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the previous, infoboxed revision of the article and incorporated the Sankei source. Denaar, could I ask you to confirm whether the following information is indeed covered by that reference, so we can expand the article accoridingly?

"The purloined money was used to fund the promotion of artists signed to the label, including music videos, concert tours and other overhead costs. Kaku and Murasaki have confessed to the charges, while Tomioka currently denies them and remains uncooperative with the authorities."

- Cyrus XIII 16:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm checking just the two sources we have now correct? Or was there another? I'm whipping out the dictionary on this one - so give me a bit. Denaar 16:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Sure, take your time. There was also an English news post from JaME, but since we have two sources from professional news outlets (one of them in English as well), that cover the same information, I guess that one is no longer needed. - Cyrus XIII 16:50, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
It does go into more detail, but I don't like putting anything on WP that I am not 100% sure of. I'll be honest - I'm still not sure how this was fraud (it looks like they just moved money around to avoid taxes). I didn't read anything about the others confessing. I think Tomioka did deny the charges, but there was nothing about being uncooperative. Denaar 17:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Then I suggest we stick with the information from the English source for now and keep the Japanese one on a "further reading" basis (so to speak). Further news on this is likely to follow in the foreseeable future. - Cyrus XIII 17:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Now Japanese sources are no good for you "Denaar" Two additional sources has been provided. One in English and another Japanese source. 122.49.175.210 18:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Since you have been previously asked not to remove content from an article without offering a proper rationale, yet keep reverting the article to a revision that misses the infobox, information on Free-Will's European branch and previously added citation templates, I have to dismiss this kind of behavior as vandalism. Again, I will leave it to Denaar, to determine whether the new, Japanese source confirms any of your additions. Random blogs on the other hand are not reliable sources. - Cyrus XIII 19:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Its not a random blog, its an English translation of a Japaese news article, which inludes links. Disputing major news companies is ridiculous. You and Denaar have both continually removed information relating to this matter, and were asked kindly to please use the talk page before editing. You actions were reported as vandalism. 122.49.175.210 19:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, no additions were made, it is another source from a major news company, thats states exactly what is written. There is no reference to it being "allegations" in any source. 122.49.175.210 19:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Before commenting about the European website being removed, do visit the URL http://www.free-will-europe.com/ 122.49.175.210 19:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually my revision only linked to the Internet Archive's latest version of the site, as a reference to the label's previous European branch. Regarding the way these arrests will be mentioned in this and other articles (if any), you might want to stop edit warring and start working productively towards a consensus on this talk page. - Cyrus XIII 04:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

No it did not, and the link to that website is highly inappropriate. You continue to remove information with reliable sources from articles without providing a valid reason. According to other users, you often cause edit wars, and try to blame other users in the talk page for your blunders. From what I have seen, you have provided no contribution to any article, including this one. I suggest that you try to be more productive in your edits, and avoid provoking other users with vandalism. 219.90.229.216 06:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Um, yes, it did. Also note that I am currently neither blocked from editing, nor am I evading such a block by using different IPs. - Cyrus XIII 11:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Well I would insist you check the history page before making accusations, because when I edited the page, it was not written like that. Prehabs this would be of interest to you assuming good faith and remaining civil. Furthermore, I'm not avoiding anything. I received emails from two admins informing me of my router security. Once again, I think you should read the guidelines, and stop removing information that has reliable sources, and provoking other users into edit wars. 122.49.161.126 12:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

For the record, I agree with keeping to the English source, and keeping the remaining articles for those who with to read further. The information will keep changing, and according to my Japanese friends, there has been conflicting information that was released about this incident, so no one can be quite sure which is correct. I have also invited members of the WP Japan Project to determine what is appropriate. Denaar 01:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you ask your Japanese friends to provide that conflicting information with sources. This is not a headline story in Japan, neither was it widespread. There is now an investigation into the usage of the stolen money. If the president of Free-Will can not provide evidence in regards to his companies financial spending since 2001, it is my opinion that he will be convicted and jailed. Free-Will is not listed in the stock market, not even as a penny company. That means it is a very small company, with few employees and little monetary income. This news explains a lot. 219.90.249.73 05:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The sources say Free Will gave the money to ADK. Then, afterwards is where they differ. Some say its pending investigation, some say it all went to a subcontractor, some say it went to a subcontractor, a personal bank account, and also back to free will (was deposited three ways). Some say this is a lawsuit. Some say its a criminal case. Then, you said that two people confessed, but then then the reports I've read said only one "agreed". Also, you said there was no "alleged" - and yet they threw the Japanese equivalent all over each news report I've read. That is part of the trickness of the grammar, all the buffer language thrown in to avoid making a direct statement (like slapping "疑い" at the end (doubt; question; uncertainty; skepticism; scepticism; suspicion; distrust;) when describing what happened. On the first source your provided it was the "lawsuit" thing that was confusing. It is interesting to me that some of the online papers with an equivalent English version aren't translating the reports into English - it implies that they don't think it is significant enough to. Anyways the confusing thing is: If Free-Will paid someone money, and didn't get anything in return, and the money ended back up in their pockets, then what was fraud? I think we just don't have enough information to know what happened yet. Denaar 05:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

No source says anything like that, and I would like your friends to provide those other reports. 122.49.136.134 05:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[1] <-- didn't you already have this one? This one says Kaku was fired, and that ADK won a lawsuit against Free-Will. Denaar 06:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC) Edit: １６年９月には詐取した金の弁済を求めて東京地裁に提訴。同地裁は先月、冨岡容疑者とフリーウィルに連帯して約３億５０００万円の支払いを命じる判決を出した。<-- None of this is covered in the official english news reports. Thats what threw me off - Lawsuit? Criminal Case? What happened? Denaar 06:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Translation of Japanese article.

Criminal investigation teams, from two metropolitan police departments, arrested three men suspected of defrauding major advertising agency Asatsu-DK of 324 million yen. Charged with fraud, are former Asatsu-DK operations officer, Koichi Kaku (39) president of Free-Will music productions, Yutaka Tomioka (43) and former Free-Will company director Kazunori Murasaki (35) Koichi Kaku has confessed to the charges, while Yutaka Tomioka denies them.
According to authorities, the three suspects committed the crime between May and July 2001, by fabricating an order with ADK to produce music videos for music groups which Free-Will take charge in promoting. The costs that needed to be paid to the subcontracting company which makes the videos were falsified, and the money was remitted to the account of Free-Will, swindling a total of 324 million yen. Koichi Kaku disclosed that the subcontracting company was instructed to transfer the money to a company which Murasaki had fabricated, and finally transfered to Free-Will's bank account, the stolen money was used to fund business ventures by Free-Will, as the company was financially in trouble.

It is fraud, and money laundering. They were sued in the Tokyo district court, and Asatsu-DK won the lawsuit. Further charges are still pending.

This article continued to be vandalised, with no good reason. This news is relevant to bands signed to the label, particularly Dir en grey. 122.49.136.134 09:19, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Particularly Dir en grey, because...? - Cyrus XIII 09:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

It has been explained many times, the stolen money was used to fund concerts, and the production of records, and music videos, as well as other overhead cost. This includes the participation of bands signed to Free-Will in European, and US music festivals, and tours, particularly for Dir en grey. This information was confessed by Kaku and Murasaki on television, and was viewable at this website http://www.tv-asahi.co.jp/ann/news/web/soci_news5.html?now=20070916

The sources say Free-Will used the money to fund business ventures. 122.49.136.134 10:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I am sure you will understand, that "was viewable" isn't really all that compelling an argument. If you cannot present a tangible source which explicitly states that the purloined money was used to fund any band in particular, such information is not going into the article, let alone into any of those dealing directly with the artists signed to Free-Will - at least that's what seems to be the consensus among all editors beside you. - Cyrus XIII 10:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm tired of your nonsense Cyrus XIII, you continue to damage articles and provide no contrubution apart from causing edits wars. This news is almost 2 weeks old, and most articles have now been removed, but there is a source that says the money was used to pay for Free-Will's operations, and it is listed in the references. It does not have to mention band names, furthermore the money was swindled using the bands signed to the label as a ploy. This news is relevant to every musician currently signed to Free-Will, as the source says the company used the stolen money to fund its business ventures. You will need to provide a reason for saying it is not relevant. 122.49.136.134 11:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

You have again vandalised this article. Words with meanings such as "accused", and "ostensibly", are inappropriate. They have been convicted, and further charges are still pending. 122.49.136.134 12:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Your translation doesn't appear to be a translation of the article I posted. The Japanese I posted above are: "16th year, 9th month (of the previously mentioned era aka September of 2004) requesting payment for the fraudulent money, a lawsuit was filed in Tokyo district court. In the same place, last month, the suspenct Tomioka and Free Will were jointly ordered by judicial degree to pay 350,000,000? yen." After this, then they were brought in for questioning and charges were brought up against them. They haven't been convincted of criminal charges; criminal charges were filed after ADK won the lawsuit. Convicted means found guilty of a criminal charge. This article continues to use "suspect" attached to people's name every time they are mentioned. The statement above in JP and this translation are from [2]. Denaar 12:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I hate to speak for another, but I think our issue is the command: DO NO HARM. This is Wikipedia policy. Please explain how putting this information on the band's pages is doing no harm. WP:BLP: "An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. Biographies of living persons (BLP) must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy." Are we writing this conservatively? Are we being neutral and avoiding writing something in a titillating manner? Are we stating "just the facts" - with neither a positive or negative endorsement of the events? These are people we are writing about, and that means we have to be very careful about what we write. "When writing about a person notable only for one or two events, including every detail can lead to problems, even when the material is well-sourced. In the best case, it can lead to an unencyclopedic article. In the worst case, it can be a serious violation of our policies on neutrality. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic." This is why we are paring back the information, you yourself have admitted this isn't a high importance story, and there is no need to put in every little detail. Just a general, encyclopedic description is enough. In the case of the individual bands, that information can be found here, and the information only tangently refers to the bands (they weren't guilty any more than a child is guilty of what their parents do) and including the information in their articles "does harm" them. Denaar 13:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The added information had the heading "Record label controversy" and did not say anything negative about the bands. There is anxiety in the Japanese visual kei community, because Free-Will is a small company, and one of the few labels to promote Visual Kei bands. Fear is the only harm I see this information doing 122.49.136.134 14:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Please explain why you think this information is harmful to the bands. 122.49.136.134 14:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I never said this news is not important. A few years ago, I was questioning how bands signed to Free-Will could take part in European music festivals, when they are not popular in Japan, and are mostly unknown. This news was unexpected, but very interesting, and explained many of my past curiosities. 122.49.136.134 14:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't vouch for all festivals, but my local ones pays all the costs of the band's travel to come here an play, so the band gets a free ride. Denaar 18:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)