Talk:Fred West

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[edit] Comment

I found this article informative and intresting, however I am trying to find more details on all victims. If anyone can give me any more info please email me on gmkneen@msn.com thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.137.3.152 (talk • contribs)

I think the prose and sentence structure could do with an overhaul. There are a lot of short sentences, and passages that don't seem to make much sense.A121509 13:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introductory paragraph

The introductory paragraph is not factually correct. Fred West was not responsible for the murders. He was accused, charged and was to stand trial, but due to his committing suicide he died an innocent man under British law (he was to be tried under various elements of the Criminal Law of England & Wales). In the UK quoting the introductory paragraph can leave you open to prosecution for slander.

Unfortunately I can not edit this introductory paragraph to wording that is more suitable and accurate. Toxygene 15:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

May I just add for clarity that you cannot be 'open to prosecution for slander' on two accounts. Firstly, the written word comes under 'libel' and secondly you cannot sue for libel or slander if the allegedly defamed person is deceased. Don't come around here with your pedantic ways when your knowledge is that of a dilettante to say the least. FeedTheGoat 14:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

He wasn't legally responsible, but nor was he legally found NOT responsible, and let's face it, there's little serious doubt that he was, in fact, a serial killer. A quick disclaimer in parentheses might be a good clarification anyway, regardless of the legal implications.

That aside, isn't it the case that slander/libel don't apply to the dead? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.9.28.123 (talk • contribs)

I've edited the paragraph to say he is 'believed'... which covers it. Ben Finn 15:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

In the inital description, added the word "suspected" to serial killer. Of course there is no common sense doubt about what he did, but I hope that covers the legal issue describing his status accurately, while the phrase "serial killer" is still linked for those who use the searches or relevant links etc. Rrose Selavy 20:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The word "suspected" is unnecessary - there really is no need to be circumspect here. The evidence was overwhelming, he confessed, there is no controversy over his guilt, and he is dead so there are no legal issues of slander or libel to consider, in spite of Toxygene's post. Furthermore, his crimes are reported as fact elsewhere in the article, so it's inconsistent to imply that there is doubt about them in the introduction. "Believed to have murdered at least twelve women" should remain though, as there is doubt over the exact number of people he killed. 81.79.35.188 12:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I have restored doubt. This has nothing to do with libel and everything to do with wikipedia's reputation as sticking to the facts and not making it up (which to say he murdered people when he was only charged is making it up). This article needs an eye kept on it for this reason, SqueakBox 00:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Then to be consistent, you should have changed all the other statements saying definitively that West murdered people in the article to claims that he killed them. But you didn't. Now the article just looks stupid -- inconsistency is not good for Wikipedia's reputation. 203.117.143.29 06:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

He was a sick murderer and you say he was an "Innocent man under British law"!?? He killed them there is no doubt so don't use stupid semantics.WikiFounder 20:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Personally I feel that Wikipedians have made the right decision in this case. I'm sure he was a cold-blooded murderer and he did confess to the crimes (or some of them). But as he was never found guilty in a court of law we therefore have to assume innocence, however impossible that might be to believe. Xanucia 20:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Head injury lead to sociopathy?

Anyone want to clarify/support the claim that "West's sociopathy has been linked to a head injury"? Who has claimed that a head injury caused his sociopathy? What's the supposed connection? Sounds quite ridiculous to me, and should be clarified at least. - Severinus 21:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

This was not so much a claim as a suggestion by Gordon Burn in his 1998 book Happy Like Murderers

- Bobble2 16:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Thanks for the clarification & edit. - Severinus 21:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
A book published before 1998 made the assertion before Burns. LuciferMorgan 19:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bigamy

"He committed bigamy by marrying Rosemary Letts on 29 January 1972, as he never had divorced."

The previous paragraph states that he had already murdered his previous wife, so is this actually bigamy? Marlinspike 13:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Good point, I would have thought that bigamy was the least of his crimes, even if he had committed it. Though maybe in law, if his wife was considered missing or still alive legally then it might apply but I don't know enought about the details of the timings etc, but otherwise unless some one can provide a legal justification or reference then I think it should be removed. Rrose Selavy
It appears he murdered a woman who was not his wife whom he had impregnated. 24.131.12.228 08:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
He did kill his first wife, Rena, some time after killing that girlfriend. It appears she left him around the time of that murder. She later (after he had married Rose) came back looking for her daughter and was killed by them. Rose was charged with her murder. So, yes, he was a bigamist.

[edit] Law & Order: Special Victims Unit

I'm not sure this is particularly encyclopedic, but an episode of the American TV show, Law & Order: SVU appeared to be modeled after Fred West and his wife. The episode was titled Resilience and is from season 4. The episode also made a reference to Fred West by Dr. George Huang character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by OPaul (talk • contribs)

[edit] Early Life - Error?

Re: " In November 1961, he was accused and nearly convicted of raping and impregnating aa 65 year old girl who was a family friend."

This seems to be a clear error, but I don't know what the facts are to change it - could someone in the know change it please?

--149.170.39.37 15:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Done, SqueakBox 15:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Death of Charmaine

"Charmaine died in mid-1971, probably at Letts' hands, while West was still in prison." I removed the "probably at Letts' hands", it sounds like speculation, it at least needs something to support it. Thehalfone 10:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links

There are many articles for this very inhuman guy, some may also be useful, e.g.FRED AND ROSE WEST(with many photos and references), True Tales Number 5: Trapped in a House of Horrors, Did Fred West Murder to Order?(A hypothesis of the murder with some superstition beliefs, but should be not true), a site with many photos of the house and the related people(unable to find at this moment), Fred and Rosemary West , Nicci French - Nicci Gerrard(old review with some lucky victims experiences), and for an article about a boy in early 70s pick up by the guy in his vehicle who talk to him sex violence against women and made him frightened. Now the boy is the one made film about that guy. Add some wish they would be helpful for someone use the page but not to teach someone to follow that evil behaviours(even reptiles and fish kill young to keep their life only not for fun). One psychologist wrote a book and as he is related to the case, he wrote a chapter for the case and said there would be 2-3 such pair of couples around the country(he also suggest to dug all the buildings built related to Fred, but some found bodies are in fields), that would be dangerous for such mental people to our young children who do not enough to protect themselves. Unfortunately Fred didnt tell us where some bodies are. probably in Berkley Mill, what a pity!Freedom76192m 19:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

Well this article has no references whatsoever, so I think I'd better make a start. This should be exciting. Lradrama 09:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

This has been started off very well. I took it to Crimelibrary.com and got some references from a very good article they have on the Wests. More can be added though, but that is a good start. :-) Lradrama 09:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes

Why has half the article been removed? especially the paragraph below marriage to Rose?? the whole thing looks really poor now and makes little sense in places —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.36.99.6 (talk) 14:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Fredwest.jpg

Image:Fredwest.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 20:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conviction?

The infobox mentions a conviction but there was none. I'll change this. Perhaps the box should read 'crime - murder' instead? That would be essentially accurate. Malick78 (talk) 19:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guilt and categories?

It should be noted that West was not found guilty but we are happy to put him in the 'serial killer' category. While I'm happy with this one hundred percent, I think we should be aware of a precedent set on the Dr John Bodkin Adams article - he was acquitted of one murder in 1957 and had one other indictment controversially quashed with a nolle prosequi - but in 2006 a book came out (Cullen, 2006) claiming the police suspected him of killing 163 patients of his. Now, the interesting bit: the book and the police evidence is more than convincing, but because of the acquittal (shown in the book to have been caused by political interference) - a couple of wikipedians have removed the 'serial killer' category, even though subsequent evidence (the police archives) has shown him to have been guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

If they do this it sets a precedent that people like Adams, and West, not having been found guilty, may be deleted from such categories. There's a debate on the Adams discussion page so please feel free to add your opinions, otherwise, theoretically, West could be removed too. Malick78 (talk) 19:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
But Adams was found not guilty. The only reason they didn't convict Fred West is because he killed himself to avoid standing trial.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pointless cultural refernces

"The progressive rock/metal band Porcupine Tree released their In Absentia-album in 2002 and one fan reported at the official Porcupine Tree forum that the leader of the band, Steven Wilson, mentioned Fred West as a notable influence to the album."

This is a joke right?! A fan thinks that a member of band was an album influence. Wikipedia has sunk even further into the realms of pointless information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.70.28.140 (talk) 08:17, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it's probably non-notable unless there's a dedication in the album or something significant like that. DavidFarmbrough (talk) 09:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)