Talk:Fred Spiksley
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[edit] Spiksley and Barcelona
Barcelona
- Catalan Cup
- 1918
I have removed the above and other references to FC Barcelona in the article as I would like to challenge the info added here about Spiksly and the club.
- In 1918 Spiksley would probably have probably still have being at Ruhleben.
- Spiksley is not listed as an FC Barcelona coach/manager on their own website. [1].
- In 1918 FC Barcelona did not win the Catalan Championship. It was won by RCD Espanyol. At the time FC Barcelona were also coached by another Englishman Jack Greenwell.[2]. Spiksley is not mentioned as a trainer at this link either. Djln--Djln 17:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Response
Fred Spiksley escaped from Ruhleben in the early months of 1915. This is written in a contempoary newspaper article. On his return to England he was sent to work in the a munitions factory in Pittsburgh by the government. He is on the passenger list for a ship that went from Liverpool to New York and this contains all the details of his trip, his destination and who sent him. It is written in another newspaper article that he worked in a munitions factory during the war.
Also in 1921 he went back to America and on the passenger list he records his previous visit to the us in 1915. I have added a link on the page to this document. If you want to find the 1915 one you have to search for Fred Spikesley not Spiksley, this list is hand written (not in freds hand) and therefore the common misstake has occured. It is however definately him as proved by the 1921 passenger list.
He was never the official coach of Barcelona football club. But it is a well known fact that he did coach in Catalonia and for Barcelona. Fred would often be drafted in by his contancts to help them coach teams and this is likely to have been the case at Barcelona. It is also reported in the press that he coached Barcelona. Although the year in which this took place is hard to prove it is most likely to be 1918 and this is the date given in the book The Wednesday Boys.
It is very hard to prove that Fred was in Ruhleben and I am interested to know where this information was found. We know that a newspaper article exists saying that he was in a POW camp and another that says he escaped. These were found by someone 10 years ago and they made short notes but never took copies, so we only have the notes to go on.
Although I have been adding little bits of information to this site, the biography that is currently being written contains over 15 years of research and over 200 illustrations, more than 50 of which are of Fred or his medals/caps etc.
Any information shared is very warmly recieved.
And you are right about the Catalan Cup. Barcelona is proving to be the most problematical part of the research because his work there was never official.
- Unfortunately the link you provided does not seem to go directly to relevant info regarding trip to America.
[edit] Spiksley at Ruhleban
- I have come across a number of sources linking Spiksley with Ruhleben P.O.W. Camp which I have added below. At the start of war Spiksley was coach at 1. FC Nürnberg. A number of other detainees - Fred Pentland, Samuel Wolstenholme, Steve Bloomer, John Cameron and John Brearley - were also working as coaches throughout Germany and they all ended up at Ruhleban.
Another editor added this picture of Spiksley and son apparently at camp. (I presumed it was yourself) [3]. However the link itself does not provide any info. An archive of Ruhleban prisoners does not mention Spiksley, but archives writers admit it is not complete. [4]
- Is it possible that Fred and his son Fred Jr, have been mistaken for each other in some records ? Do you have any info on what became of Fred Jr ? Djln
--Djln 19:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Spiksley as coach
I think the article could do with more info on Spiksleys coaching career in general. Could you provide the names of books and/or links were you got the recently added info. Both Fred Pentland and Steve Bloomer coached in Spain. Pentland was particularly successful. Is it possible that Spiksley worked with either of them ? FC Barcelona did not appoint its first official coach until 1917. It is possible that he worked with the club before then or as an assistant coach after. It is also possible that Spiksley coached another Barcelona club. There is a number of football clubs based in Barcelona apart from FC Barcelona. These include both CE Europa and RCD Espanyol. I have seen the words de Barcelona added to the names of both these clubs and this could cause some confusion. There is also Barcelona Sporting Club in Ecuador which is not far from Mexico where Spiksley also coached. Djln--Djln 19:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Response
I did add the link to the POW Photograph. There is no mistake over the names, both him and his son went over to Germany and were interned together. His son was never a football coach, so it was the footballer who was on the ship to New York. In Bloomers biography there is a meeting between Fred and Steve at Derby station, it says it was the first time they had seen eachother since the war, when they were in Germany. The only possible way they could have met in Germany would have been in Ruhleben becasue Bloomer was only there a few weeks before being interned and was in a different region from fred.
In terms of his coaching career we do have lots of information, but the work on the book so far has focused on his early life, Gainsborough Trinity and Sheffield Wednesday. The research on his coaching is good and inparticular information about his time in Sweden and Nuremberg. We know for a fact that he was in Spain and we have read that he coached Barcelona, however we are unsure on how accurate this source is and if we include it in the book it will be a short 'did he?, didn't he?'
The Mexico stuff is hard, but we have the dates for the Reforma club and Club Espana. He did win the Mexican Championship with Espana and we have the photograph of him with the team, trophy after the match. We have the dates for Fulham and research into this shows the FA Cup run to be the only thing of interest, although it is a good story.
ou may be interested to know that he was in Fred Karno's 'The Football Match' in 1907 with Athersmith of Aston Villa fame.
Thanks for your interest in Spiksley, we appreciate what you have been doing on this website. It is impossible for us to put everything we have up on here, I just occassionally add things. For your information, Fred is my Great Great Uncle, which is the closest way you can be related to him. His son had no children.
Where did you find out that he played for Oldham and not totenham in the Ruhleben final? On Wolstonholme's page (linked by you) it does not mention what team he played for. I've read that the oldham team was made up of players from the upper class and thought it more likely that Fred played for Totenham with Bloomer.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.249.130.70 (talk) 08:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
- It has been a pleasure to contribute to this article. Spiksley certainly is an interesting character. It has been good to learn about him and I look forward to reading your book. With regards to whether he played for Tottenham or Oldham at Ruhleban, I maybe guilty of misreading the info at Wolstenholme bio. After a recheck it is not so clear which team he played for. The Ruhleban archives however say Steve Bloomer and Edwin Dutton played for Tottenham. I am not sure about the class issue. It is my understanding that this was a cup final and not a one-off game. I will re-edit the article to add info you have touched on here and elsewhere. Do you know the dates of his time in Mexico ? I would be interested to know if you think Fred possibly renewed his connection with either Fred Pentland or Steve Bloomer while in Spain or if he may have coached another Barcelona club. Earlier you said he won the 1918 Catalan Cup. Could he have coached RCD Espanyol de Barcelona, who won the cup that year. I will keep an eye out for any further connection with Barcelona and will post it here. Djln--Djln 17:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Response
I do not think fred met up with Bloomer in Spain, due to the article in his biography which states that Fred met Bloomer at Derby station just before Bloomer died. It says that it was the first time he had seen Bloomer since the war and was upset at seeing an old friend so ill.
I do have the dates for Mexico clubs, but at the files are at my fathrs house and it's been so long since I saw the mexico dates that I am reluctant to put them on the site. Off the top of my head I believe he coached the Roforma Cub from 1921 and was coaching Espana by 1923. Then he came back to coach Fulham, but yet again there are no offical records of his coaching at Fulham. It is recorded in newspapers from the time however and his time there starts and finishes at exactly the same time as a particular manager and therefore it seems to fit.
He was a coach in Spain, but this is the most hazey part of our research. There are still quite a few items of Spainsh gold jewlery still in the family that Fred bought back.
I am hopeful that the book may be completed within two years, but there is so much left to do. It will exist and information will be placed on this web page on how to get it.
If you did not know. His FA Cup medal sold a couple of months ago for £8300 including commission. I drove several hours across the pennines to see it and hold it. Something I thought I would never do. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.206.215.137 (talk) 22:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] England Goals
Offical Statistics say that Fred scored 2 against wales and 2 against Scotland. And therefore I guess that this is how it should be recorded on the website. However, he did infact score a hat-trick in both matches and there is a huge amount of evidence to prove this. When we come closer to the completion of the book we will be making inquiries on how we can get the official statistics corrected.
In brief, goal scorers were never ofically recorded at the time, and therefore statisticians have worked out who scored goals by looking at newspapers. They choose the times or Athletic news as their main source.
The fact that the secretary of the FA at the time wrote a book with almost a whole chapter dedicated to Fred and his Scotland hat-trick, the fact that the referee said that Fred scored a hat-trick, the editor of the Athletic News (who didn't write the report for the match) says he scored a hat-trick, the fact that Fred always maintained he scored the hat-trick and the FA even awarded fred with a chain with an inscription of for the hat-trick. None of these things count, becasue the Athletic News got it wrong.
We also have compelling newspaper articles that give a clear statement that the journalists could not even see the game on the day because the crowd was so big it was forced to stand infront of them. Collectively the newspapers credited about 8 different players for the 5 england goals. All the people who claim he scored three goals were in the stand and had a clear view, apart from the Referee who was on the pitch.
Anyway. I'm happy for the site to stay at 2 goals for each match, because I know for a fact that when we ask for the stats to be changed. No-one will care and what's more will probably tell us tha we are wrong and they are right. And lets face it, it's one of the biggest things Fred did.
[edit] Gainsborough Trinity
We are close to completeing the statistics for Trinity. We've nearly done 3 out of the four seasons. Although we are several match reports missing for the last season, so that could delay us. When we initially got the match reports we only got the ones for the Midland League matches and cup games. Friendlies were missed out. We got them about 10 years ago and it only now that we are filling in the gaps. Takes an age to read them all and get the goal scores. Fred may have scored more goals for Trinity in 4 seasons than he did in his entire time at wednesday. But then again it was a lower league at the time. He scored loads for The swifts, but this was an under 18's competition.
One question. Where are you based? I live in York.
- I appreciate were you are coming from about Freds disputed England goals tally. I guess in the days before TV it was impossible to verify goalscorers and who scored what. At the moment I think it is best to stick with official stats. However if you now of an on-line link that disputes the official stats or retells one of the accounts you mentioned then you could link it here. Alternatively if you know the name of a book with this info, it could also be used. There is no reason why the fact that his stats are disputed could then be included. Wikipedians are very fussy about what is included in articles and other editors may challenge the info if it is not sourced. I am based in Liverpool. Djln--Djln 14:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- This link will take you to the amazon page for the book I mentioned. 50 years of football by sir frederick wall, secretary of the football association. The stuff about freds hat-trick is in here. I realise that it is about football from 1895 and not 1893 when the hat-trick was scored. However it features in his pages on fred which are centred on the 1896 fa cup. He talks about Fred a lot, so the 1893 match is included.
[edit] Ruhleben Football Link
http://ruhleben.tripod.com/id22.html Try this link to the Ruhleben story which says that the match was between Oldham (Public Schools V Tottenham (Scratch XI). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.249.130.70 (talk) 16:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Ruleben Escape
I've found a journal article that talks about trade offs between Germany and Britain. The Germans were reluctant to swap prisoners because there were more Germans in Britain. But an inspection of the Ruhleben camp (by the equivalent of the UN at the time) revieled poor sanitary conditions and the Germans were forced to be seen to do something. They opted to send some prisoners home, these were men who were concidered unfit for duty and therefore could not be sent out to fight against them in the future.
Fred had played out his career with a dodgy knee, which eventually cost him his place at Wednesday. Thre is a story of how Fred dislocated his own knee so that he did not have to go to war. It may be that he did this in the camp so that he was released. Many men who were unfit for duty were sent to munitions factories and we know for certain that this happened to Fred. The men were released from Ruhleben in March or early April and this ties in with Fred not appearing in any Ruhleben magazines and being able to board the ship for New York in August 1915. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Clive w nicholson (talk • contribs) 07:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
This is good info and it could be added in and it would explain his absence. As a matter of interest a number of prisoners, including Geoffrey Pyke, did escape from the camp in early 1915. On another point, another editor has asked me elsewhere about where Steve Bloomer died. Does it mention his place of death in the biography you previously quoted ? Djln --Djln 21:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
- the journal
A Question of Retaliation? The Internment of British Civilians in Germany in November 1914 Journal Title: Immigrants & Minorities | Vol: 23 | Issue: 1 | Year: 2005 | PP: 1-29
The difficulties the government now faced could be seen as early as March 1915, when the US ambassador to Berlin, James W. Gerard, visited Ruhleben for the first time and subsequently wrote to the Camp Commandant, Count Schwerin, outlining his objections to the poor sanitation and overcrowded conditions prevailing there.69 The German government could respond either by ignoring Gerard's complaints, by doing something to improve the conditions in the camp, or by releasing some or all of the prisoners as a good-will gesture. The latter course of action was indeed advocated by the chief of the Kaiser's naval cabinet, Admiral Georg Alexander von Müller, who believed that this would encourage Britain to be more flexible in negotiations over the treatment of enemy service personnel in general. However, Carl Georg von Treutler, Bethmann Hollweg's representative at Imperial Headquarters, while passing on Müller's suggestion, nonetheless warned him that the Chancellor could not consider such a step without first securing the release of all the German civilian prisoners in Britain, because otherwise the government would face ‘highly undesirable attacks’ on its policy from its right-wing critics at home.70 As a result, only a handful of civilians, those deemed permanently unfit for military service, were exchanged, while the Prussian Ministry of War was obliged to spend significant sums of money in making improvements to the accommodation at Ruhleben.71 In the meantime, the number of Germans and Austrians interned in Britain rose dramatically in the aftermath of the ‘Lusitania riots’ in London in May 1915, continuing at the rate of about 1,000 new cases a week in the summer of 1915 and reaching a total of 32,440 by 22 November.72 The German government was completely powerless to prevent this
[edit] Steve Bloomer
I believe he died in Derby. I found this on an internet site and know that he always lived in Derby when in England. The book is quite big and must say where he died. Although I have seen the book I do not own my own copy.
- Suffering from severe bronchial troubles in late 1937 Derby County Football Club paid for the 'old 'un' to go on a cruise to Austrailia and New Zealand. He was feted at all ports of call. In April 1938, 3 weeks after his return, Bloomer suffered a relapse and died on a Saturday. His funeral was the biggest Derby had ever witnessed. "Steve Bloomer: The Story of Football's First Superstar" by Peter Seddon, published by Breedon Books. 224 pages, hardback, illustrated £14.99
[edit] Southern United
Southern United were a London based club who existed for three years. It has been a common mistake to think that Fred played for Southend United, when Southend had not even been formed! Instead he played one season for Southern United and was club secretary. There were 2 FA cup matches, one being against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge.
[edit] Corinthian F.C.
The infobox says that Spiksley played one game for Corinthian F.C. in 1907. As Corinthian never played in a league I have deleted the appearances & goals from the infobox.
I am still dubious about the Corinthian reference. Cavallini's "History of the Corinthian Football Club" [1] lists every Corinthian match and player and there is no mention of Spiksley. --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 11:49, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Fred Spiksley played in a Wreford Brown Select Corinthian team. The team consisted of 10 current corrintian players plus Fred Spiksley. Spiksley refers to the game, at length in his autobiography published in 1920. At the time the team were consered to be a Corrinthian outfit, but may now be considered a Wreford Brown team. This would explain why it does not feature in the above mentioned book. Spiksley clearly states that he played for the Corintians and was the only proffessional to have done so. Wreford Brown described it as Spiksley 'Swan Song'. It happened because the two players bumped into each other when Brown was organising the team selection. Spiksley Scored a goal in the dying moments of the game in a 2-1 loss, but all the home supports cheered his goal. Brown then took Spiksley on a lap of honour on White Hart lane where he was given a standing ovation.
Now if you want to take this achievement away from him over a technicality on how historians (other people, who are not Spiksley and Wreford Brown) have recorded match, was it an official Corrinthians game or not. Well, it'd be a little harsh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clive w nicholson (talk • contribs) 09:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- ^ Rob Cavallini (2007). Play Up Corinth - A History of the Corinthian Football Club. Tempus Publishing. ISBN 0-752444-79-6.
[edit] How to improve this Wikipedia page
I appreciate that a few people have worked hard to create this page and I am most grateful for your support in improving the quality of the article. I am pretty useless with all the nuances of Wikipedia, but have the information required to improve the article so that it may be ranked as an A for quality rather than a B.
Two areas I have discovered that need improving are; 1. reference to source material (which I have added to today); 2. Inclusion of pictures. Something I have many of but no idea how to include.
The page is a double edged sword for me. I don't want to give too much away that will be in the biography. But I want the page to raise awareness of Fred and be of a high quality. Therefore I would like to add some photographs that are already out in the public domain rather than from my personal collection. Any ideas and help with improving the page would be brilliant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.16.131 (talk) 15:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
