Talk:Fred A. Leuchter

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Older discussion: /Archive

Contents


[edit] Links

Why is it that all links are to anti-revisionist sites? Wound't be better to include some links to revisionist sites?

Because revisionist sites are the exact opposite of credible sources. REGULAR-NORMAL (talk) 01:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Newsweek citation

Where are the sources for eg. the claim that "Newsweek claimed that "Leuchter was running a death row shakedown scheme: if a state didn't purchase Leuchter's services, he would testify at the last minute for the condemned man that the state's death chamber might malfunction.""? What Newsweek!? When? In what media? Who did?

The source for that is the article 'Truth Prevails' published in Newsweek, Oct. 22, 1990AndyL 22:43, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Debate about credentials, concentration camp study

This article remains a good example why wikipedia will never be a professional encyclopedia. This article is not about man named Fred A. Leuchter (apart from birthday there are only "claims"), but a attempt to discredit his findings. To overcome that problem we should use only sources which predate 1988. --Magabund 12:12, 7 May 2005 (UTC)


"The lab tested them for exposure to cyanide and concluded that no traces of it could be found."

From his report: "It is notable that almost all the samples were negative and that the few that were positive were very close to the detection level (1 mg/kg); 6.7 mg/kg at Krema III; 79 mg/kg at Krema I."
This is very misleading; you fail to note that these ratings are compared to a control of 1050 mg/kg! Compared to 1050 for a random piece of stone, 79 is truly nothing. AaronSw

"Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. is an expert in execution technology (he designed electric chairs, lethal injection machines, and gas chambers)."

There is no evidence that he is an expert and much evidence to the contrary. He designed these things only in the same sense you or I or any fifth grader could. He didn't actually make any or have any design contracts.
Expert is a subjective term. He worked with creating and upgrading execution equipment for nine years. He designed an improved electric chair and lethal injection machine that many US states use and worked 1979-1988 with various states execution equipment.

"He published his findings"

Suggests a level of credibility, professionalism, or official status that these don't posess.


What he found, and the conclusions he drew. It doesn't suggest anything, WP articles doesn't need to babysit the readers.

"expert"

"The vast majority of Holocaust experts see the report as conclusive evidence for that Leuchter doesn't really know anything about toxic gas and the Holocaust." All of them, anyone who says otherwise isn't an expert.
Circular argumentation.

[edit] Extortion allegation

"In response, anti-Holocaust-denial groups organized a series of attacks against Leuchter that destroyed his career, and his life."

Except that he didn't have a career, he was an extortionist:
"On July 20,1990, Alabama Assistant Attorney General Ed Carnes sent a memo to all capital-punishment states questioning Leuchter's credentials and credibility. Carnes stated that not only were Leuchter's views on the gas-chamber process 'unorthodox' but that he was running a shakedown scheme. If a state refused to use his services, Leuchter would testify at the last minute on behalf of the inmate, claiming that the state's gas chamber might malfunction. <Memorandum from Ed Carnes, Alabama Assistant Attorney General, to all Capital Punishment States July 20,1990; Shapiro 'Truth Prevails' pp. 17 and 21; Newsweek, Oct. 22, 1990, p. 64; Swampscott Journal, Nov. 1, 1990.> According to Carnes, Leuchter made 'money on both sides of the fence.' <Associated Press, October 24, 1990>. Describing Leuchter's behavior in Virginia, Florida, and Alabama, Carnes observed that in less than thirty days Leuchter had testified in three states that their electric-chair technology was too old and unreliable to be used. In Florida and Virginia the federal courts had rejected Leuchter's testimony as unreliable. In Florida the court had found that Leuchter had 'misquoted the statements' contained in an important affidavit and had 'inaccurately surmised' a crucial premise of his conclusion <Carnes, Op.Cit., 2>. In Virginia, Leuchter provided a death-row inmate's attorney with an affidavit claiming the electric chair would fail. The Virginia court decided the credibility of Leuchter's affidavit was limited because Leuchter was "the refused contractor who bid to replace the electrodes in the Virginia chair <Shapiro, "Truth Prevails, 22>." (Lipstadt, 170)"
Note how the dates are all after the report's release in 1988. Leuchter, I'm sure, did testify about the inhumanity of the old technology while selling his new one -- but that makes sense, as he claims to have had humanitarian goals. If courts require a state to improve its equipment, what's wrong with Leuchter selling them the better version? I don't see how this disproves that he had a career.AaronSw
Since there were so few other experts in the field, it might just be a conflict the court of interest would have to live with. It's not like you could go out and get some completely unaffiliated university professor in the field of execution studies; I suspect nearly all experts in the field sell execution equipment of one sort or another.

"He does not claim to have any desire to disprove the Holocaust, nor does he deny it happened. "

But he says "Moreover, attempts to discredit the Leuchter Report have failed, most notably with Pressac's inept analysis. Since the release of the Leuchter Report [in 1988], independent evidence has shown that the six million death figure has been grossly exaggerated, and an investigation by the Polish state forensic institute [among others] has corroborated that no gas was utilized in the alleged execution chambers at Auschwitz."
In Mr.Death he hypothesized that someone someday might find 1000 electric chairs hidden buried under German cities. Go figure.
How is this Holocaust denial? He simply notes that his report has not been discredited, and that indepedent evidence has corroborated it. That doesn't sound like more than any competent engineer would do. AaronSw


"Pressure from Holocaust believers led Leuchter to lose all his contracts."

He lost his contracts becuase he had no qualifications or training and he was an extortionist.
The timing doesn't make sense here. He designs electric chairs and lethal injection machines for numerous states. His work is so respected that simply mentioning he did it opens doors ("you're the guy who designed the helmet? you're hired!"). Then, after nine years, people suddenly drop him because he has no training? That makes little sense. AaronSw
This isn't the kind of thing you go to school for. What counts is actual experience in the field, and Leuchter had nine years of it. AaronSw

[edit] Personal Life

"His wife also divorced him."

Has she said this was related. Just because it is coincidental doesn't mean it's related.
In Mr. Death, Leuchter himself said it was related to his report.AaronSw

"ALSO DIVORCED HIM" - this article is a textbook example of ad homoninem. Did Dershowitz write it and do the discussion page too?

Accidently came across some trivia - Leuchter went to Europe with a secretary. It turns out the secretary was his wife. It appears the divorce was for other reasons ( ?? ) or for the unanticipated aftermath of crossing people who can hurt your income, etc. She doesn't seem to have left him until it hit the fan, but she had helped in turning the fan on so to speak. ( If he had found evidence for gas chambers Mr Leuchter's life would probably be much different - loving wife, generous employer/contracts, friends everywhere.... The truth shall set you free... free from all the previous stuff I guess.)

--Samuel J. Howard 08:44, May 4, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not trying to defend Leuchter who obviously is a amateur who can't admit he was wrong. But an article about him should contain the facts, not the preachings. BL 12:48, May 4, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Gas chambers

There's too much offensive stuff in the article to list, but in particular were the mentions of alleged gas chambers. And I agree that he shouldn't be credited for designing gas chambers. Also, that term, holocaust believers seems slanted. Mackerm 08:59, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

If you have replacement terms for "alleged gas chambers" and "holocaust believers", I'd like to hear them. I don't think it's fair to call them "gas chambers" because that prejudges the issue. And "Holocaust believers" is, I think, a lot better than the previous "Jewish groups", which sounds vaguely anti-Semitic.AaronSw
The point is that the "neutrality and factual accuracy are disputed". Repeatedly removing that message doesn't change that. Mackerm 16:39, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
The dispute doesn't seem to be serious, sadly. AaronSw 23:24, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Crematoria

"On the question of the functioning of the crematoria, despite the defense attorney's opposition, the judge's decision was unequivocal. He could not testify on this topic for a simple reason: "THE COURT: He hasn't any expertise.<49> "

He hasn't any special expertise on: The Holocaust, Nazi Germany, Zyklon B or bug extermination. Neither he, nor do this article claim that he has either.AaronSw

[edit] Mackerm's edits

OK, I've removed the POV language bias to my own satisfaction. I'm still dubious over some of the facts. The linked Anti-Leuchter site says there is no evidence he consulted on gas chambers. Perhaps he did some drawings for himself, but nothing to give him credibility as a gas-chamber expert. (Same for gallows). Mackerm 17:51, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

I think the sentiment, "He does not claim to have any desire to disprove the Holocaust, nor does he deny it happened" should remain, but it should be an exact quote from Leuchter, rather than a paraphrase. It should be followed by relavent contradicting statements he may have made. Mackerm 20:16, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

AaronSw: I noticed you reverted "recognized gas chambers" back to the contentious, "alleged gas chambers." This is a language bias. Mackerm 19:12, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Today I tried different wording to remove the language bias. Factual accuracy remains highly questionable. Mackerm 12:51, May 10, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] This is ridiculous

Look, the gas chamber article already states that Nazi gas chambers in mobile vans and at least eight concentration camps (see also: extermination camp) were used to kill several million people between 1941 and 1945.. It's not under contention anywhere else on this site. I notice no controversy on that page. So why, AaronSW, are you insisting on mealymouthed adjectives ("alleged") on "gas chambers"? Grendelkhan 13:03, 2004 May 10 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed header (2004)

The controversy over this article took place four months ago, and apparently has died down and been very quiet since then. I propose removing the "disputed" header on this article unless it is shown that its accuracy is still in doubt. --Modemac 07:52, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It had some pretty bad language bias (most of which I fixed some time ago), but I can't vouch for some of the facts. On the internet, there is dispute on whether he "consulted" on gallows and gas chambers, or just worked on them for his own self. I was not the one who put up the "dispute" header, and I personally have no problem with taking it down. Mackerm 08:12, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The problem is that he is not by any reasonable estimation an expert. To maintain so is both wrong and inherently POV.--Samuel J. Howard 13:59, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, that was another one I was thinking about. As I recall, his court testimony was discarded because he was ruled not an expert. Mackerm 17:20, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Defending Leuchter

I truly feel that this post is so sickeningly opinionated and obviously biased beyond belief. I enjoy clinical articulate writing techniques generally used across Wikipedia, but it appears that the author/s in this post have their own political agenda's behind it.

The man is referenced in numerous 'death penalty' related media as a consultant, a simple search of the web stipulates this. Naturally as soon as he was involved in historical revisionism of any kind he's put millions of peoples noses out of joint, especially when dealing with war-history of any kind. Let's face it though, we're all adults here, we all know that we demonise our enemies during war and there's a good chance we'll still go on believing it afterwards.

Heck, I still remember my history teachers telling me Hitler had one ball and was quater jewish, all of which is a myth taken to extremes.

I suggest that we allow this post to be clinical and factual. The man IS a consultant for many governmental organisations. It's very easy to debunk one man who's willing to have a shot at a scientific investigation into something contraversion with millions of people sitting there chipping away at the facts he presents, but until I see proper research otherwise, his is the closest thing to a legitimate scientific revisionistic review of a historical event in the last hundred years.

Whilst it'll also be easy to disregard this post and think to oneself, "Oh, he's anti-semetic / white supremacist / nazi." I'd like to take the opportunity to correct you otherwise, I am actually Jewish and of African decent, go work that one out. But still, logic dictates to me that this post on Leuchter should NOT be emotive and anti-revisionism.

[edit] David Cole

"I would like to state for the record that there is no question in my mind that during the Holocaust of Europe's Jews during World War II, the Nazis employed gas chambers in an attempt to commit genocide against the Jews. At camps in both Eastern and Western Europe, Jews were murdered in gas chambers which employed such poison gases as Zyklon B and carbon monoxide (in the Auschwitz camp, for example, the gas chambers used Zyklon B). The evidence for this is overwhelming and unmistakable" -- David Cole


This must be a quote from Cole's recantation. What about his 46 questions? Was this quote from before or after his life was threatened?

[edit] Try again

Looks like it's been awhile since anyone's taken a crack at this article. Let's put the messy talk page above behind us, hey? While all the holocaust stuff seems more or less fine, the account of Leutcher's actual status as an execution expert seems POV to me -- as AaronSW says, it just doesn't make sense. What does everyone else think about this section? (I'm referring primarily to the paragraphs before any of the section headers.) — Adam Conover † 05:53, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

It's not POV, it's a series of quotes and other cited information from credible sources. AndyL 11:36, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] No sense

When discussing Leuchter's failings as an investigator, the Wiki article claims:

Leuchter did not examine the walls of the gas chambers until fifty years after they had been used; his critics note that it would have been virtually impossible to discover any cyanide at all using his method. In fact, tests conducted on ventilation grates immediately after the end of the war showed substantial amounts of cyanide. Leuchter was unaware that part of the camp and chambers were reconstructed, so he had no way of knowing if the bricks he was scraping were actually part of the original gas chamber.

Wiki goes on to tell us:

The chambers were demolished by the Nazis when they abandoned Auschwitz and the facilities Leuchter examined were, in fact, reconstructions. Leuchter has no training or expertise in the designing of gas chambers.

So the Wiki reader is left here with the idea that Leuchter took samples from a reconstruction that, naturally enough, would contain no HCN residue (since there had presumably never been any HCN present in the reconstruction. A wiki reader with a half a brain brain will be left with the idea that Leuchter's samples may have come from poritons of the original wall or from the reconstruction, and neither he nor anyone else can now tell which as he did nothing to record where he took the samples.

As we proceed through the article, however, the ever-helpful Wiki now tells us of a subsequent investigation, a "repetition of the study with better methodology": Yes, a repetition by someone who did know where to take samples.

In February of 1990, Professor Jan Markiewicz, Director of the Forensic Institute of Cracow, redid the analysis.[2] Markiewicz decided that the Prussian blue test was unreliable because it depended on the acidity of the environment, which was low in the purported gas chambers. Markiewicz and his team therefore used microdiffusion techniques to test for cyanide in samples from the purported gas chambers, from delousing chambers, and from control areas elsewhere within Auschwitz. The control samples tested negative, while cyanide residue was found in both the delousing chambers and the purported gas chambers. The amount of cyanide found had a great variability, (presumably due to 50 years of exposure to the elements to varying degrees[3]), but even so, the categorical results were that cyanide was found where expected, i.e. the delousing chambers, and not found where not expected, i.e. the control samples, validating the reliability of the test with both positive and negative controls. Therefore, since cyanide residue was found in the chambers in question, the test would confirm that they were in fact gas chambers, not mere residential rooms as was the alternative hypothesis or morgues, as has been suggested by revisionist readers of Auschwitz architectural and engineering documents.

How is it that Professor Markiewicz is able to prove HCN residue in the walls of the reconstructions (which had never been exposed to HCN) while there was no HCN residue in the walls when Leuchter examined them? He isn't. See above. Where could this new HCN residue have come from, since it wasn't there when Leuchter examined them previously? Most importantly: is Wiki telling us that the "gas chambers" exhibited today are the ruins of the originals or that they are reconstructions?

Different methodologies. The point of the whole retest.
"Markiewicz decided that the Prussian blue test was unreliable because it depended on the acidity of the environment, which was low in the purported gas chambers. Markiewicz and his team therefore used microdiffusion techniques"
Gzuckier 19:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

But look a little more carefully. Wiki writes, "but even so, the categorical results were that cyanide was found where expected, i.e. the delousing chambers, and not found where not expected, i.e. the control samples, validating the reliability of the test with both positive and negative controls." Notice the glossing over of the question of whether or not the [reconstructed?] "gas chambers" were even included! There is no glossing. There is an expectation of intelligence on part of the reader.

"Therefore, since cyanide residue was found in the chambers in question, the test would confirm that they were in fact gas chambers"
Gzuckier 19:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, no it wouldn't. It would prove the structure had been disinfected. Prussian Blue doesn't magically disappear - read wikipedia article. It is tough stuff. It is partly water-soluble. 50 years of repeated flooding and exposure to the elements can take their toll. If there is only a little then there was only a little to start with. Have the Poles go back and try again Yes, Bwana.- have them supervised though. By someone with a pith helmet and elephant gun, presumably? The last time they did it they almost lost courage about their own study. It probably was too orthodox in it's findings. PS Leuchter's research was verified by Schuster, Linsky, Luftl ( all experts by any definition ) and the Polish study ( though it hurt them to admit it - they hid their report for as long as they could ).

Insert - later on - 50 years of weather has no effect on Prussian blue ( it may have some effect on the brick, but as long as the brick stays the Prussian blue stays ( several hundred years if all goes well)). Eventually you end up with a blue pile - it outlasts the brick. The wiki article on Prussian blue is/was really good - I recommmend it. The Zyklon article is okay and the cyanide article is good. Read the Cracow report - you end up feeling sorry for them. I hope they don't try again - I was being sarcastic - they have been humilated enough. Schuster, Linsky, Luft, plus probably several others ( all PHDs ) have confirmed Leuchter's work, except for small critcisms of little import. For an amateur he did a very good job - unfortunately he didn't realize the power of the people he was dealing with, probably from lack of knowledge. He and his wife thought they were going on a paid vacation to Europe and didn't know they were going to step on a landmine.159.105.80.63 19:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


This is too funny. It appears everyone was testing a reconstruction of a gas chamber. Did the Poles find anything - it appears they did, magic strikes again. Their new methodolgy must be grand.


For any good discussion of the chemistry you will have to reaf Rudolf, nitzor, codoh, Richard Green, etc. This will give you the outline of the story. Several big time researchers - PHDs, years of experience - will pop up when you do this reading - check them all out for fun. Great education and of some interest. Some of the sublities of the tests and how various resarchers tried to evade/fudge/ly about/etc the truth will eventually become obvious. Don't let wiki/codoh tell you what to believe. You will be surprised at what you learn - warning, keep it to yourself.159.105.80.63 18:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Finally, the entire article written about Leuchter was taken from the OPINIONS and BELIEFS of the creator of www.nizkor.com, which PROVES that this entire article about Leuchter is biased and completely one sided.

[edit] Trial in the state of Massachusetts

Regarding this statement: In October 1990, the state of Massachusetts brought criminal charges against Leuchter for representing himself as an engineer without a license., does anyone know the exact outcome of the trial. Was Leuchter convicted and if so what was the sentence imposed? Piercetp 02:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC) He was made to sign a consent decree promising not to call himself an engineer.

In order to get the procedure over with, he promised not to do what he had not done anyway. The state promised to stay away from him. Everyone got off the hook without too much expense( Leuchter) and too much embarrassment( the state) - win-win.159.105.80.63 19:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Mr Death" on Google Video

The complete documentary "Mr Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred A Leuchter" has been on google video for several months, so I have added a link to this at the bottom of the article. I don't know what the copyright situation regarding this is, but given its length I'd be suprised if google had left it up for this long if it weren't meant to be there. It's a ghoulish film, but required viewing for anyone who might be inclined to believe Leuchter's holocaust denial "report". Watching him scramble around the ruins of the Auschwitz death camp armed with a chisel and a measuring tape, it's difficult to know whether to fell pity or utter contempt.

You should have utter contempt for the fact that noone but Leuchter has even bothered to scientically check anything. Of couorse the gist of any other reports - including the Polish government attempt - has been to basically confirm this "pitiable" man's work. Maybe you can get someone with a better chisel and clear this up. Hate to see this contemptuous piece of research stand as the best there is - maybe the truth but at least try to disprove it by something more substantial than an ad hominem wikipedia article.

An odd bit of trivia about Morris' documentary. It was previewed with a bunch of Harvard students - it seems that about 50% of them came away with the wrong message - they thought Leuchter was correct. The other half were just mad( it appears they either thought he was right or imputant)( hard to fool Harvard students - not hard to get them mad). My understanding is that none of the students had much previous background on any of this. When I saw it I thought it was a low-blow hit piece. Leuchter appeared blindsided by a professional who was doing all he could to belittle the man. I appeared that Morris had no knowledge of the subject matter, or no interest in it other than making Leuchter look bad. I remember little chemical, etc analysis - but a really good ad homimen piece for all to study.159.105.80.63 15:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

RE the above - I recently discovered that after the Harvard showing that Morris edited his film to try to make Leuchter look bad/worse - his first hit job sort of backfired. 159.105.80.141 19:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] film link redirects here -- change it?

The link for Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. redirects to this page, and also this discussion page has a header for the WikiFilms project. Although the film is mostly about Leuchtner, it is a different entity; can someone switch this over? I'd do it myself but it's beyond my wikipedia editing abilities and I don't have time right now to learn how. Andymussell 22:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Holocaust questions

Something I just thought of - why didn't anyone check for cyanide in the crematorium. That many bodies might? leave traces of cyanide in the room, furnace, chimney, ashes... 159.105.80.141 15:47, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

A point of note or notoriety - wasn't Leuchter the first person to do any real forensic work concerning the holocaust?159.105.80.141 12:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 11:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Whatever happened

Does anybody know whatever happened to Fred Leuchter? Where he is now or how he can be contacted? Yellowstone County Girl 03:14, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Series of Edits I Just Made

I just made a series of edits to this article to attempt to bring it within Wikipedia standards regarding source citation, bias, etc. I sincerely hope that the edits stand -or- that any of my deletions are properly sourced and cited. As damnable as the man's actions were, his actions speak ill enough on their own without drawing nameless, un-cited and unidentified "critics" into the mix. I neither support nor sympathize with Leuchter's impugnable findings -- I just prefer to let the facts stand on their own without the addition of highly questionable, anonymous content. Ginsengbomb (talk) 06:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bias and Opinion

There is an AWFUL LOT of UNSOURCED information here, and appears to be solely bias and opinion 207.81.252.28 (talk) 06:01, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zundel payment

I noticed the following was removed

However, critics argue that Leuchter had a profitable career as an "expert witness" for hire who would say whatever his contractor wanted him to say and, according to trial testimony, Zündel paid Leuchter $35,000 for his report.

Anyone have any source on how much Leuchter was paid? WWORBERTS (talk) 23:53, 20 March 2008 (UTC)