Talk:Franz Kafka

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Franz Kafka article.
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Franz Kafka was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: April 15, 2006
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Contents

[edit] Comment

Editors,

I believe the term "Kafkaesque" has nothing to do with the style and substance of Kafka's work just as the term "Orwellian" has nothing to do with the style and substance of Orwell's. The term "Kafkaesque" applies to Kafka's characterization of father characters in his works, including most notably in "The Judgment". I am certain of this fact but words are in a sense arbitrary and subject to popular usage. I don't want to amend the article without the support of whomever wrote it, but am prepared to cite John Updike (quite the well-respected Kafka scholar) in this capacity.--Zeplin007 22:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


His father was the Galanteriewaren merchant Hermann Kafka (1852-1931) (...) - I consider the word Galanteriewaren as absolutely inapropriate, as even I as a German native speaker did not know its meaning before. Therefore, wouldn't it be a good idea to change or remove this term? According to the German Wikipedia, Galanteriewaren means more or less stuff (that you don't really need), costume jewellery, something like that. --Lennex 22:54, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The term may be specific for Bohemian German or late 19th century Prague. It means what you found - stuff one doesn't need :). Czech equivalent is still used. Pavel Vozenilek 01:16, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree with Lennex. In 30 years of using German, I have never heard the term Galanterie. It may well be, as Pavel states, a 19th century Bohemian term, but what is the point of including it in this article when even German speakers cannot be expected to understand it? What's more, the nature of the goods being merchandised plays no apparent role in Franz Kafka's art.

I am changing the text to state that Kafka's father was a retailer. --Philopedia 6 July 2005 23:02 (UTC)

Well, "Galanteriewaren" or "galant" and "Galanterie" is not such a far fetched word as the above entries may indicate. Though somewhat old and outdated and likely hardly being used anymore I've heard several people of certain cultural background using the term "Galanterie" in various places in Austria, specifically in Vienna! Since during Kafka's time I assume Prague and Vienna had similar demographics and culture they actually meant the same thing to people in both cities and likely still do. I'd suggest to reintroduce the term "Galanteriewaren" as a romantic (in a historical sense) term of a romantic time and include a short note on what this means, rather than eradicating it completely. The term "Galanteriewaren" closely refers to "articles or things of courtship" that can come with or without a sense luxury.

[edit] NPOV Geographic Terms

I am changing the term "Land of Israel" to "Palestine". Kafka expressed a desire to move to the Holy Land in the last 10 years of his life (1914-1924). During this period the Holy Land was known as Palestine. I do not think the term "British Mandate of Palestine" should be used since the Ottoman Empire had control over the area for some time during the period. 72.251.54.121 (talk) 17:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC) Marcus, Dec. 6th, 2007

[edit] Musical Reference: Smashing Pumpkins

The reference in this song was taken out of context by the way it was quoted. I changed the quote to present the existentialist context in which I believe it was intended to be taken. 71.207.13.141 23:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ambiguous publication dates

the bibliography section does not seem to make clear whether the dates listed are dates of publication, or the years that kafka actually wrote the pieces.


[edit] How to complete the list of Kafkas works

Hello,

check the german Franz Kafka-article for a list of his works which is almost complete. You can also have a look on another good source: a german page who lists all printings of Kafka in newspapers and magazines during his lifetime. --Thomas Fernstein 17:08, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

QUOTE: "One of the most interesting aspects of Kafka's work is that he wrote in Prussian, not German." /QUITE Prussian language here is not old Prussian language of Baltic group, but German dialect. So I deleted link to "Prussian language". By the way, I never heard about Prussian (German Prussian, not Baltic Prussian) as a different language.

Whoever contributed the "prussian" paragraph: It would be nice to cite sources and explain the matter some more. Although a native german speaker I am not aware of "prussian" as a separate entity.
I'm removing the passage about the prussian language due to lack of evidence. I'm also a native german, and have read a couple of Kafka's works (in german) and can find no difference between Kafka's German, and the normal "Hochdeutsch". snoyes 17:01 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)
In fact, I'm removing the whole section "Kafka's Language". The material contained therein is either false or not particularly relevant to Kafka. snoyes 17:09 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)
That was a left-over from a very early version of the article. Not being a German speaker I didn't feel qualified to remove it myself, but I had thought it was rather odd. -- Infrogmation 18:29 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)
On the back of the books of him I've read, it says that he wrote in German. - Sigg3.net 11:38, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
"All his published works were written in German". Just German. He was "born in the Austrian province of Bohemia, inside the Austro-Hungarian Empire." See, how stupid categories can be? I added "Category:Austrian writer" - Czech alone would be to short. "German-speaking-secular-Jewish-born-in-Prague-Austro-Hungarian" would be better. -- Robodoc.at 09:47, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)


I deleted Josephine from the novels section because it is a short story, not a novel. The Trial and The Castle, as well as Amerika, are definitely novel-length (I'm reading The Castle now and it's about 480 pages).

Actually, i think most (all?) of his works were shorter than novels, including both those two.

Most of his work is short story in form, but The Trial definitely qualifies as a novel, both in terms of quantity and the way in which it is written, as does The Castle. sjc

Are you sure Kafka wrote a novel entitled Josephine? <KF> 20:47, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Both The Trial, Amerika and The Castle are undoubtly, and both in length and in terms of structure, to be considered novels.

I added Letter to His Father under 'Letters'. thought it was odd that it wasn't included in his bibliography Hahawall 18:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC)




Hello, I just wanned to say, that F.Kafka wrote "Josephine, Queen of rats", not just "Josephine"!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.176.50.8 (talk) 20:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography (esp. Novels)

For the bibliography section, are the dates suppose to show the time when they were written, or the date of original publication? I put a bit of effort into making the list of his longer short stories, including the date when it was written and the original German title. I also included the dates when the novels were written, but someone reverted them to the publication dates. Personally, it makes more sense to me to use the dates when the works were written, as it gives a better idea of the progression of Kafka's maturity, and especially because much of his work was published posthumously. The dates for the novels completely conflict with the dates they were written (publication goes The Trial, The Castle, and Amerika; Amerika was written first, then the Trial, then The Castle). Anyone have any suggestions? Putrescent stench 18:20, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Kafka wrote "Jopsephine, Queen of rats" not just "Josephine"... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.176.50.8 (talk) 20:17, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Page on The Great Wall Of China

Where would/does Franz Kafka's story The Great Wall Of China belong? I would say The Great Wall Of China (Story) or somesuch, but there since there is no article at The Great Wall Of China (it is a redirect to Great Wall Of China), shouldn't it be here, with a disambig to Great Wall Of China at the top? When this is solved, I might write a bit on the story. --Taejo 9 July 2005 10:56 (UTC)

The Great Wall Of China (Story), no disambig. Surely there are many more books with this name. Pavel Vozenilek 19:38, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Attribution for vfd-ordered merge

Some material on this page was merged in from "Dora Dymant", per Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Dora Dymant. -- BD2412 talk 03:10, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

All the spellings on this page were changed from American to British spellings with just the comment "copy-edit; spelling standardization (-ize, BrE)" [1]. Seeing as how this article does not concern a topic which is particular to a specific variety of English, and after consulting the article's history it is clear that the American-style spellings have been the spellings used predominantly in this article, it seems out of order to change them all to British. Nohat 08:27, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] home movies' rock opera about franz kafka

shouldn't there be reference to brendon small and home movies rock opera about franz kafka

Aren't there candidates a little higher up on the list? Staretsen 17:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I love Home Movies, but no, there shouldn't. Recury 22:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kafka's grave

The article says it's in Zizkov, the picture says it's in Strasnicka. Living in Prague I know that the new Jewish cemetary is on the border of these two regions. All the same, I think the article should say one or the other. I'd say Zizkov, probably. --Sachabrunel 19:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The book Jewish Prague, Guide to the Monuments from Ctibor Rybár, 1991 names it (page 300) new Jewish cemetery in Zizkov (in Jan Zelivsky street). Pavel Vozenilek 00:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Does anyone know which of the works listed under "bibliography" or what was "external links" (now "further reading") were used as sources for the article? SlimVirgin (talk) 16:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "A controversial, dangerous and convicted anarchist"

I only found out who Franz Kafka was just now when I read the article. Before I have been in the conseption of that Franz Kafka was some kind of an anarchist revolutionary. Perhaps this is due to the name of his book "Franz Kafka's Trial". Perhaps people should change their habit of using that or the name "The Trial of Franz Kafka" and revert to using "The Trial by Franz Kafka". Or perhaps it is due to the publicity related to the nazi holocaust and that the nazies conficated his manuscripts, that his name is generally associated with political controversy. There doesn't seem to be any politically controversial in him, and he seems like a cult figure of existentialist literature. Teemu Ruskeepää 12:15, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

As a child, I always saw the spine of my parents' book as "The Kafka Trial," when it actually reads, "KAFKA the TRIAL"- my use of caps to illustrate the size difference of key words in book jacket design. I, of course, knew he was an author by my teenage years. I don't think people should change what the book is called just because some people don't understand it. I can only imagine highly unusual, comic situations in which the context one could talk about a work of fiction "The Trial by Franz Kafka" and a legal preceeding against the man, "The Trial of Franz Kafka" in the exact same terms of perfect ambiguity - the situation is even Kafkaesque and I think your decree is quite silly. JesseRafe 06:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nom

I failed the GA nomination because in my view this article isn't anywhere near comprehensive enough yet. Kafka has been the object of truly vast amounts of scholarship during the past century, and there's an lot more than this to say about him. It needs to be at least three times longer. Redquark 07:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

1 think I can say though is that bringing it 3 times longer will give it near FA status IMHO. Lincher 19:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, maybe I'm a little demanding. It's true that the article does contain most of the basic facts. But I recently read a 600-page biography of Kafka so this article strikes me as rather thin. I would add more if I had the time. Redquark 23:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] kefka

Do you supose it's worth noting that the villain of the video game Final Fantasy 6, Kefka Palazzo, seems to be inspired in part by Franz Kafka. The name simillarity is the primary reason though some would argue that Kefka's motivation for causing mass destruction is that life is an excercise in futillity reflects Kafka's darker writings.

[edit] František Kafka

I just visited the Kafka museum in Prague. In Kafka's writings in Czech (e.g., to his employer), he used the name "František Kafka." This was also the name used in the Czech version of his newspaper obituary. Nowadays, of course, even Czechs call him Franz. But should "František Kafka" be mentioned in this article as an alternate name used during his lifetime? -- Mwalcoff 05:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't he Czech, regarding Prague being under Austrian control?

[edit] a Czech?

This is the big question. Franz Kafka, despite having a Czech-sounding name, was a Bohemian Austrian who was Jewish. Calling him "Czech" in incorrect unless there can be a source provided that tells of his "grandfather" being an ethnic Czech. Then perhaps it can be vaguely argued that he is a Czech, though I myself see one grandparent as being null and void. He did not even write primarily in Czech. That would be like calling "Vladimir Nabokov" an English author being he wrote in English. 141.211.251.69 22:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

No, that would be like calling Kafka a German author being that he wrote in German. Besides, Nabokov fully viewed himself as an American. The question is what did Kafka consider his own identity to be? --DonaldoKun 12:26, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

No, the question is how is he described by reputable sources. As noted elsewhere on this page, there are several sources that describe him as Czech.--Runcorn 14:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

No argument that his nationality should be sourced. There does seem to be some confusion though over how to describe his nationality owing to different reputable sources describing him differently. --DonaldoKun 11:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I see no confusion. He was born in what was then Bohemia, a province of Austria, so was born Austrian; he died a citizen of Czechoslovakia.--Runcorn 20:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. You've made it clear for me. The confusion was mine. Just to get it straight though, Kafka may be correctly identified in some sense as Austrian, Bohemian, Czech, Czechoslovakian, and Jewish! --DonaldoKun 07:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

The photo in the Kafka info box is terrible. It is not illustrative in that it doesn't look like the common photos of him used in contemporary books, it is heavily airbrushed, and better photos are available, e.g. the one on the Radio Prague page: [2].

I would add it myself but photos and copyrights are such a pain in the neck and people are so contentious about their sacred cows.

--grimbleGrumble 18:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Franz Kafka

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 16:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kafka as Czech Jew

"The Czech Jewish writer, Franz Kafka": Jewish Chronicle January 15, 1993, article "Film Festival: Intriguing challenge of Kafka" by Geoffrey Paul.

As to his language, "all Czech-Jewish writers wrote in German": Jewish Chronicle February 7, 1992, Literary Supplement page IV: article "Stories of my Life: 'I am Franz Kafka'" by Melech Ravitch.--20.138.246.89 10:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Egon Hostovsky is a Czech Jew and he wrote in Czech. "Czech-Jewish" should not be confused with "Bohemian Jewish." There is little to nothing to suggest Kafka was wholly Czech in the definition of Czech. Kafka is a Jew from Bohemia, not a Czech-Jew, though people have debated his ancestry and some Czech nationalists like to claim him as part of their culture/heritage/language. Given it is difficult to discern what is true with Kafka, it could be argued his Czech surname is relevant enough to suggest he is a German-Bohemian-Jew of Czech ancestry. 141.213.55.9 21:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Surely all we have to do is find a good source that explicitly calls Kafka Czech. Anything else would violate WP:V and WP:NOR. There is one such source above. Here are two more:
"KAFKA, Franz (1883-1924): Czech novelist.": Hutchinson 20th Century Encyclopedia (7th ed, 1986), p. 702.
"KAFKA, FRANZ (1883-1924): Czech author.": The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia (fifth ed, 1977, ed. Geoffrey Wigoder), p. 1101.
True, many sources call him Austrian, but the Czech lands were then part of Austria, so it would be like calling a Welsh person British. - 20.138.246.89 09:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

No, calling Kafka Czech would be like calling an Englishman living in Wales Welsh. ---Dagbert 17 November 2007


In Austria Czech names are as commonplace as anything. Until 1945 Bohemia and Prag were the cradle of a rich German and Jewish culture, that always mixed with their Czech neighbours.212.183.40.176 15:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

German-Austrians lived just anywhere in Austria-Hungary, and Prague was part of Austria-Hungary. It was mainly the language that characterised the German-Austrian or the Czech or the Hungarian etc. Moreover, you only have to look at his biography and you see that Kafka considered himself German. Britsh and American sources just do not know this. They think Prague is Czech, so Kafka must be a Czech. Besides, the oldest "German" university was in Prague. ---ES November 15th, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.165.67.84 (talk) 08:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inventor of Hard Hat?

Is that true? Can someone verify the page number of Drucker's book that that factoid appears on? Thanks. --Rajah 02:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I will look into this. Sofeil 04:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
It's true. I don't have the page number you're asking for but I know Peter Drucker has written about it. Can we put it back with a {{Fact}} tag until the page number is found? I think it's a fascinating fact and I'd like to see it back in the introduction section sooner rather than later. ColinClark 03:03, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I've asked the user who added that bit to the article if s/he can help us here. ColinClark 04:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Style of writing.

I removed this paragraph: "Writing in German, which allows for rambling nonstop sentences that are capable of possessing an entire page, Kafka's stories often pack an unexpected punch just before the period—that punch being the finalizing meaning and focus. The reader discovers what Gregor Samsa has become, thanks to the past participle that procedes the period, verwandelt (transformed).[15]"

For these reasons:

1. Saying that German allows "rambling nonstop sentences" seems like editorializing and unfit for an encyclopedia. Any language allows rambling nonstop sentences.

2. About this "punch" before the period: that's just German grammar. The verb, especially a past participle, often comes at the end of the phrase or sentence (like erwachte in the first phrase). It has nothing to do with Kafka's style of writing. If that word were anywhere else in that sentence it would be incorrect grammar.

3. The paragraph says that the reader discovers WHAT Gregor has become thanks to the verb. That obviously doesn't make sense. The noun came before that verb.

4. How can "verwandlung" be an unexpected punch when it's the title of the story? If there's any word in that sentence that stands out to the reader it's certainly "Ungeziefer." ColinClark 22:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Which of these best describes the point you're trying to make? These are the options Wikipedia gives you when you're challeging the content of an article: Are you saying that paragraph is not factual? Or are you saying that whole section is not neutral? Or are you saying the source is not reliable? --Sofeil 03:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Seems pretty clear to me. I'm saying all three. The paragraph is not factual, it's bogus. I pointed out four errors in its two sentences. My first point says it's not neutral because it uses editorial and non-encyclopedic terms. If that's what the source really says, then I am saying it's not reliable. Whether this came from the source or a wikipedian, it's obvious this paragraph was written by someone who doesn't speak German. Someone who doesn't speak German (and yet nonetheless derisively comments that it's full of "rambling nonstop sentences") is not a reliable source for commentary on the construction of a German sentence or the style of some German writing.
The other article has a similar paragraph, ending with a different sentence: "It is up to the translator to provide the reader with that element of surprise, so cunningly positioned in the original." I've already shown there is no surprise and the word is not cunningly positioned. There's no other place for it to go! That's like saying I was cunning when I put toothpaste on my toothbrush. The rest of that section does a fine job showing the difficulties of translation. We shouldn't make up nonsensical arguments to try and make it look harder. ColinClark 06:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I know what you're saying, but those are definitely not a Wikipedian's words. I got those from an introduction in a book on Kafka. The person being quoted Gerald Williams. I'm not certain, but he appears to be a translator himself?[3] So I don't know how you can say "it's obvious this paragraph was written by someone who doesn't speak German". Maybe you're not reading it correctly? It looks like Williams is commenting on the German language itself and not exactly Kafka's style of writing (which is exactly the point you were trying to make)? I think this misunderstanding might have arisen because this section is titled "Style of writing". I agree that this is a little misleading because the section itself is talking about the German language and not exactly Kafka's method of writing. But Kafka himself had a few other languages to choose from, but he chose to stick to German specifically. In any case I understand your desire to keep things accurate and encyclopedic, but removing sourced materials in not really the right thing to do. You can modify the text or move it around, or you can replace it with something that is on the same subject-line but perhaps more clear. But I agree that saying Kafka has cunningly placed the verb at the end of the sentence is not accurate--so I'm going to remove that. --Sofeil 02:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope this is not seen as a personal attack, but I'm sorry, I don't believe you. Besides being general nonsense, here are several specific problems which hint at me that this is not directly or correctly quoted from a real, respectable book. 1. As said before, saying German allows "rambling nonstop sentences" is editorial and unprofessional. 2. It's also not true that German allows rambling sentences any more than any other language. Ever read Faulkner? 3. It's also grammatically incorrect. There should be a comma after "rambling." 4. "Kafka's stories often pack an unexpected punch just before the period." Well, are we talking about stories or sentences? They're not the same thing, you know. 5. As said before (and it's still not corrected!) the what in the phrase is "Ungeziefer," not "verwandelt." This was my original 3rd point from above, not to be confused with the 4th. 6. "Precedes" is spelled wrong. 7. From the same paragraph in the Metamorphosis article: It's informal or incorrect grammar to begin a sentence with "So."

If I'm not reading the paragraph correctly, that's probably because it's written so poorly!

Now that I've looked up what "vertiginous" means I'm adding that comment to my list of nonsense. In what way is that sentence "whirling," "spinning," or "threatening to cause vertigo?" If you said it was "cuboidal" or "red" that would make about as much sense. It's comments like these that make me believe this was written by someone who can't read German. Grammatically, it's actually not that complicated or unusual of a sentence (besides maybe having a somewhat nice rhythm) and it would only be "dizzying" or "surprising" to someone who was unaccustomed to or ignorant of German grammar. (And, like I said before, "verwandelt" appearing in that sentence would only be surprising to someone with an extreme, possibly near-fatal case of ADD since it's the title of the freakin' story!)

I completely disagree that if, while reading Wikipedia, I come across a paragraph which is POV, nonsensical, poorly written, and either misquoted or quoted from a junk source, that removing the nonsense and leaving a very detailed explanation of why I did so is not the right thing to do. In fact, I think that's exactly what's expected of a Wikipedian. With all the vandals and teenagers there are on this site, just because something apparently has a source doesn't mean it shouldn't be challenged or removed.

I have two questions for you that I would like to know before proceeding with this discussion: 1. How much experience do you have speaking and reading German? 2. Can you please tell me exactly, word for word, what your source says? ColinClark 04:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

No it's not a personal attack to claim a source is dubious (although it does go a little against WP:AGF). But I certainly understand your frustration over this, and I appreciate that you have refrained from removing the paragraph despite that frustration. Thank you. Now, I don't have to answer your first question, but to get it out of the way: No, I don't have much experience speaking or reading German. As for your second question, my source says pretty much exactly what you find in the article. (That next paragraph is also from the same place, but you don't seem to be having any problems with it.) But the more important question is: Short of removing that whole paragraph, is there anything else we can do to satisfy your objections? Perhaps some kind of a rewording? I think the main point of that paragraph is to illustrate the difficulties of translating Kafka. As far as this basic idea is kept I'm open to some kind of rewording. Sofeil 08:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Can I please use my status as an admin to try and arbitrate. Fundamental tenets of Wikipedia, WP:V and WP:RS, mean that we report what reliable sources say, no more and no less. I do not like this paragraph either - as I have said before, I have no idea how a sentence can possess a page. (Whether the author of the source can read German or not, his English is odd.) However, either we accept the source or we dismiss it as failing WP:RS and delete the whole passage. Could Sofeil please read WP:RS and confirm that in his opinion it is a reliable source.--Runcorn 19:28, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I've gone out of my way to assume good faith on this. You've done your best to destroy it at every step.

Of course I am open to rewording! I've very clearly explained to you at least 10 things wrong with this paragraph and you've only made a single change. What are you waiting for? What more do you want from me?

You never respond to any of my points. I've given clear reasons why I believe this is not correctly quoted and you simply ignore them and insist nonetheless that it is. And yet, you did make a change admitting it was not accurate, thereby implicitly admitting it was not correctly quoted and not the source's words. So which is it?

My problem is not necessarily with the source. I've clearly explained why I don't believe the source has been correctly interpreted and quoted. Let's not waste time confirming the source is reliable before we've confirmed that.

The next paragraph actually makes sense, though I think its final sentence is phrased informally and is non-encyclopedic. But it's been so unreasonably difficult to get the first one fixed that I'm reluctant to waste any more time on trying to improve things in this article until this is resolved. ColinClark 20:29, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Colin, I think you are over-analyzing that paragraph and taking some things out of context—the context being the translation of Kafka's work into English. There are basically two major claims in that paragraph: 1. That German provides better conditions for writing longer sentences; 2. That Kafka's stories sometimes have an unexpected "punch" just before the period—that punch being the finalizing meaning and focus. Both of these statements seem true to me. When reading Kafka's works I'm always baffled by the length of some of the sentences. Some of them actually go beyong a page! In English, this seems highly unusual and many times even inappropriate. If you do this in an English class you will definitely get marked down for having too many run-ons. This doesn't appear to be the case in German. The point is not that you can't have long sentences in English; you can have long sentences in every language. The point is that long sentences are more common, and read much more smoothly in German. As for the second point, yes German verbs many times go at the end of the sentence, and this is not duplicable in English—so it poses a problem for the translator. All the points being made should be read from a translator's point of view, and in that sense they seem very reasonable to me. Sofeil 18:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a bit beside the point. What Sofeil says is reasonable, but Wikipedia does not proceed by reasonable argument (WP:NOR). The question is, does Sofeil have a good source passing WP:RS; if so, he is entitled to quote or paraphrase it. Does ColinClark have a good source disproving anything that has been said?--Runcorn 22:12, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


I still think this is bogus, but someone apparently got that bogus published so Wikipedia wants it repeated. I've done some cleanup which I hope is still in harmony with whatever the source was trying to say. I did remove one sentence because I have no idea what it's trying to say and it makes no sense, as I explained above. If you want to put it back, if it's really from a source, please make it make sense.ColinClark 07:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wish to have his writings destroyed

I'm afraid this article gives too much credence to the legend that Kafka wished to have all his writings destroyed. As Milan Kundera writes in "Testaments Betrayed" (p.258), "Kafka did not want to destroy his work. He expressed himself with utter precision in the second of those letters: 'Of all my writings, only the books are worthwhile: Judgement, Stoker, Metamorphosis, Penal Colony, Country Doctor, and a story: 'Hunger Artist.....Thus, not only did Kakfa not repudiate his work, but he actually assessed it and tried to separate what should survive...from what fell short of his standards..." --DonaldoKun 12:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it is wrong to characterize it as a "legend". The destruction of his writings is documented as Kafka's will. In the same letter that you quote, he goes on writing that by saying that those books are worthwhile, he does not mean that he wishes for them to be republished and that if they could be lost forever that would satisfy his own will. All these works he mentions in this letter were already published (so he knew that they simply could not disappear), except Hunger artist.. which was, however, planned to be published as well (he died before it's publication). --Dada 11:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bohemia

"Kafka was born into a middle-class, German-speaking Jewish family in Prague, the capital of Bohemia, a kingdom that was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire."

— Was Bohemia (Böhmen) a "kingdom" at this point, or a province of Austria? As far as I know, there was no king of Bohemia at the time.

"...and using a jackdaw (kavka in Czech) as his business logo."

— Does this indicate that Kafka was a Czech name, etymologically?

"Admitted to the Charles University of Prague, Kafka first studied chemistry, but switched after two weeks to law."

— According to one preface I read of Der Prozess (The Trial), Kafka first studied "Germanistik," then switched to "Jura" (law) to provide himself with a "Brotberuf" (practical profession).

In one place we say that Kafka was "almost fluent" in Czech, in another that he was "fluent" in Czech. Which is it?

Sca 01:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Bohemia was NEVER a "province" of Austria,but the Bohemian King,ruled by the Habsburg dynasty and a part of a multinational absolutistic "confederacy" ,Austria-Hungary.

New Babylon 2 17:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prager Deutsch (Prague German)???

this section in "style of writing" in my opinion is utterly nonsense: "Born in Prague, Kafka was fluent in Czech, but chose to write in Prager Deutsch (Prague German), the dialect spoken by the German Jewish and Christian minorities in the Bohemian capital. Prague German, he felt, was more "truthful" than High German: Using it skillfully, he was able to make it work for him in a way that was purely his own.[1]"

i suppose there was a kind of "prague german" just as there certainly was a recognisable bohemian german dialect and it is to assume that it was more or less spoken by all german speaking bohemians and people of prague, not only the german jews and christian minorities, whatever these are supposed to be. apart from the jews most other inhabitants were christian. but bohemian german or prague german was certainly not a written language! if there was a written bohemian dialect, and kafka would have used it, he would have been the only modern german author to use one of many, many german dialects. not even the swiss do that? that whole paragraph needs to be deleted. i intend to do so if there is no objection.Sundar1 21:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clinical depression?

I have a problem with this statement from the Article:

"It is generally agreed that Kafka suffered from clinical depression and social anxiety throughout his entire life."

Clinical Depression is a serious mental health condition that requires a formal, professional diagnosis. This casual use of the term "clinical depression" is not fair to the subject, and can be misleading to the reader.

I flagged it with the "citation needed". Would the editor who wrote this into Kafka's article please respond to this. If no response is forthcoming, I plan to delete the statement from the article.

Michael David 13:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Madness and genius are related. Kurt Gödel enjoyed reading Kafka. Self starvation ended both men's lives. That Kurt Gödel was bats is certain. If no one will defend Kafka's insanity, the fact will be deleted. That's demented. - 207.229.151.91 22:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Kafka's "sanity" is not at issue here. What is at issue is the unsubstantiated statement regarding clinical depression - one has nothing to do with the other. - Michael David 23:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Clinical Depression is another word for "major depressive disorder", something I myself have been diagnosed with. True, to really seal the diagnosis, you need a shrink to spend time with the person 1:1. Which is impossible after the person has died. But, there's a number of clues you can use to guess that a person suffers from some kind of depression. Any sort of negative outlook on life is a clue, especially if it's irrational and/or deeply entrenched. Depression just warps your thinking. Insomnia is common among depressives, as are all the addictions - gambling, alcohol, whatever. Suicide is a REALLY good clue, but that's not what happened to Kafka. Being very very serious (Beethoven) is a good clue. Although almost all comedians suffer from depression - I think comedy is a sortof defense mechanism. Maybe (pending a reference) it should say "probably" in there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.36.144.37 (talk) 09:51:11, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

The composition on picture named here ***The entrance to the Franz Kafka museum in Prague*** - http://www.davidcerny.cz/EN/piss.html - has nothing to do with Kafka museum. It is situated by the entrance to restaurant "Hergetová cihelna" (Herget's brickyard) in Mala-Strana and belongs to sculptor David Černý - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_%C4%8Cern%C3%BD - and has no relation to Kafka at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.184.224.24 (talk) 07:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Animated Metamorphosis

There was an animated rendition of Metamorphosis. It was produced in a Central European East Bloc nation in the 1970s. Does anyone know of the producer/ director or the exact nation in which it was produced? Dogru144 01:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ottla Kafka

Please be warned, BlueVelvet86 modified the text to make Ottla's death in one of Birkenau's gas chambers as a possibility. But her death as well as the death of the people who came in the same transport is documented. It's a fact.

[edit] Influences: TV

This may be a stretch, but on the STAR TREK VOYAGER episode SACRED GROUND, in which Janeway tries to understand an anti-rational alien religion, there is a scene where she finds several old people in a room, saying that they have been waiting most of their lives for the door to open. This sounds to me like a reference to BEFORE THE LAW. CharlesTheBold 01:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


It's bad enough we have Jhonen Vasquez listed under those he influenced. 138.16.56.122 14:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kafka's play

Hello all. I've just added Kafka's play The Guardian of the Tomb to the bibliography on the article. Unfortunately, though, my edition doesn't give the original German-language title. If anyone has it, please add it for me. The editor describes it as a "fragment" so I have too. If anyone can point me in the direction of more info on it, I'd be very interested. Thanks, DionysosProteus 21:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

This fragment / play already appears under the title "The Warden of the Tomb". AshcroftIleum 22:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Aha, many thanks. Why that translation? Do you have the edition details? It's not in my Everyman Collected Stories and that's the only one I have. There are no citations on the article page; what's the story on describing it as a story in dramatic form rather than a fragment of a play? Thanks, DionysosProteus 22:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarism?

Hello. Just wondering whether part of this article was plagiarized by or from this site: http://www.kafka.org/index.php?biography Anyone know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.164.35.231 (talk) 03:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Masná Ulice

the street now known as Masná Ulice in Prague. (Ulice means Street in Czech language)

This doesn't make any sense to me -- since when the Englicized versions of the street names are not used? It should be Masná street without any explanation and that's what I do now. Besides, ulice (which is truly street in Czech) is written with small letter u. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceplm (talk • contribs) 06:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grete Bloch

She claims that she had Kafka's kid which is probably something relevent to this article. She died at Auschwitz. Royalbroil 21:05, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Legacy, literature, trivia

I suggest that the "legacy" section be expanded, retitled "Kafka's influence," and that the relevant and worthwhile parts of the "in literature" and "in popular culture" sections be added thereto. Any thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 03:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Popular culture

In Mel Brooks' comedy "The Producers" Metamorphosis is referenced when Baileystock and Bloom are trying to find the worst script possible.

"How about this one: 'As Gregor Samsa awoke one morning from uneasy dreams he found himself transformed in his bed into a gigantic insect.'"

"No, we could do worse than that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.78.110.59 (talk) 06:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography of Franz Kafka

I think there is a problem with a number of double entries in the table called "shorter stories and parables": "The tower of Babel" is probably the same as "The City Coat of Arms", and the German title should probably only be "Das Stadtwappen". Could someone with some clue please look into it? Yaan (talk) 21:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

There is no repetition, those are two different stories, you can see from the column "included in" that they both appear in the same book under different titles. The fact that there are two different German names should be a clue - this is not a matter of different translations but two utterly different stories. The confusion may derive from the fact that many of the shorter parables are not well known as they are not included in the so-called "Complete Stories", being collected from Kafka's diaries and letters. There are no double entries in the bibliography; I should know, I wrote it all, and have been monitoring it ever since. AshcroftIleum (talk) 19:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] He wrote in German, thus he was a German writer

Category:German writers applies here, as it does for Elias Canetti, another East European who became famous for writing in German rather than a Slavic language. Citizenship should not be confused with language. -- Matthead  Discuß   02:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I concur. Kafka is perhaps best described as an ethnic Jew born in what is now the Czech Republic, but culturally ultimately of German origin. As Matthead said, neither nationality nor ethnicity necessarily form a person's cultural background. Nationality, i.e. citizenship of a particular state, is a purely artificial, political construct, in no way defining the cultural values, ideology, and thus specific factors in art created by a specific person. His Jewish ethnicity is perhaps more significant, as Jewish themes are frequently encountered in his books. Nevertheless, Kafka's entire literary output has been written in German, the language being his native tongue, so he must be classified as a German writer. If no objections arise in the course of the following few days, I'll recat accordingly. Vargher (talk) 19:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Critical interpretation

This sentence seems to have two verbs and is therefor ambiguous/confusing. "Furthermore, an isolated reading of Kafka's work — focusing on the futility of his characters' struggling without the influence of any studies on Kafka's life was worthless — reveals the humor of Kafka."

So what does it mean? Kafka's life was worthless? The studies [were] worthless? Focusing on ... was worthless? Isolated reading was worthless (in which case "worthless" should be outside of the dashes)? In any event, "was worthless" should not appear as it does unless a subordinate clasue is introduced (e.g., "that...") or unless it is the verb of the sentence, in which case "reveals..." should be dropped or moved to a different sentence (or a compound - e.g., "was worhtless and reveals" though the mixing of tenses is awkward. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.244.70.102 (talk) 20:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Misplaced addition

I removed the following contribution from the Education section as it has nothing to do with Kafka's education. Some of the information might be useful elsewhere in the article.

Franz had been trying his hand at serious writing since about 1898, but these early works were destroyed. Later he began writing more seriously. His first extant story, Description of a Struggle, dates from 1904-1905. He got his first job at the Assicurizioni Generali Insurance Company in 1907 but soon left, due to the lengthy hours and intolerable conditions. Later, in 1908, he began working at the Workers' Accident Insurance Institute, where he would work most of the rest of his life, although only sporadically after 1917, and in June 1922 he was put on "temporary retirement" with a pension. This job, although not great, had short hours (8 to 2) and so allowed him time to think and write. In 1911, however, this state of affairs was shattered when his father wanted him to take charge of his brother-in-law Karl Hermann's asbestos factory, which took up a lot of his time until 1917 (when it was shut down) and literally almost drove him to suicide. He still looked extremely young, sometimes being mistaken for being 15 or 16 when in fact he was 28. In 1911 he also made a trip to Paris, Italy, and Switzerland with Brod. He also became very interested in Yiddish theater (think a more melodramatic, more ethnic, shlockier, unintentionally funny sitcom or soap opera), even going so far as to give a talk on Yiddish in 1912 and becoming close friends with Isaac Löwy, a Yiddish theater actor, whom his father considered a good for nothing. Besides, Hermann Kafka thought his son was too eccentric, with his vegetarianism and quiet nature.


/ Raven in Orbit (talk) 05:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

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