Talk:Frank Pepe Pizzeria Napoletana

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[edit] Verifiability of being First pizza restaurant in US

What do we have to support this claim? (i.e. Is it verifiable?) RJFJR 17:36, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

It's not. Pepe's was at best, the 5th pizzeria in the US. Lombardi's (NYC), Joe's Tomatoe Pies (Trenton), Papa's Tomatoe Pies (trenton), and Tottono's (Coney Island) were all before. Here's a link for a Pizza timeline. Pepes comes in 5th on his list opening 20 years after Lombardi's. [1].Coumarin 18:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] White pies

I've gone to Sally's, Modern Apizza, and Pepe's, and I have not once asked for tomato sauce yet recieve it all the time. Where does this statement come from?

In New Haven the following terms are used: Plain Pizza - Tomato sauce and no cheese White Pizza - Cheese and no tomato sauce Cheese Pizza - Tomato sauce and cheese

White pie usually refers to a pie with seafood. As you wouldn't mix cheese with clams, the term means no cheese. However this is misleading, since in most other places around the state you order a white pie with cheese (and sometimes even clams, which of course, is disgusting). So, when you go to Pepe's next time, order a clam pie (I recommend with bacon). The pie will come out with fresh shucked clams, bacon, olive oil, garlic(maybe oregano). Jsderwin 09:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] advert

Reads like an advertisement from start to finish. Utterly unencyclopedic. wikipediatrix 21:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Believe it or not, it is an important New Haven institution, as you can verify by reading the references. Everything is a fact as I can tell. The only statement I could not verify is that "the crust is chewier at Pepe's", which is of course too subjective. Itub 00:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Almost everything in the last two paragraphs is still subjective. It's not enough to make a Wikipedia article make a POV statement and then cite a source. You need to rewrite it so that it says the source is the one saying these things. And there's no need to repost the entire AfD on this page, a link would suffice. (Why did you feel the need to do so anyway??)wikipediatrix 02:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable encyclopedic value

There is knowledge, and then there is Trivial Knowledge.

Remember, encyclopedias are impartial sources of knowledge of verified value. Never should a commercial establishment be incorporated in encyclopedias - since their vested interest in their own success distorts their perception of value, their aacounts of the establishment (no doubt negative facts would be excluded, becoming a dangerously distorted source of information), and since, by nature, businesses are compelled to advertize and create new business. Creating business is the sole purpose for the creation of such a commercial establishment - and all other factors are secondary to it.

Commercial establishments have a vested interest in casting a 'historical aura' around their business. As such, any commercial establishment should undergo observe rigorous stipulations verifying the authenticity of its historic value. The public, too, is atracted to the notion of popularizing a local atraction - it brings fame to their home. Yet, an encyclopedia is not the place to do so. It becomes clear that the value of an establishment is independent of personal opinion - particularly that of those associated with the establishment. Criteria may include achievements, such as being the (demonstrated) first establishment of its kind in the country. Remember, if you incorporate the 5th establishment of its kind, why stop there and not go to the 6th, 7th, and so on? There is nothing special about #5, and unless other achievements exist, its historic value becomes dabatable to all but the locals.

Commercial establishments have no place in a true encyclopedia - unless they constitute a significant historic monument. The Sears tower has significant historic value. Frank Pepe's, on the other hand, is simply a great Pizza Restaurant. Nothing more. There are myriads of incredible restaurants throughout the world - and you could fill whole libraries with them. Why would you incorporate one and not another? And if you incorporate them all, don't you run the risk of becoming an obsolete source of knowledge? Encyclopedias, public or not, should not dedicate to the publishing of Trivial Knowledge.

Encyclopedic articles on commercial establishments are closely related to encyclopedic articles on individuals. Many have historic value, yet the very vast majority has insignificant encyclopedic value (the only exception being family trees and biographies meant to be passed through generations IN a family - but that's a whole different publication). If an establishment of insignificant value is given an encyclopedic article, would an individual deserve an encyclopedic article too? If both have made no contributions of historic value, have no ties to historic events or monuments - then why not expand articles like Frank Pepe's to the common joe?

Frank Pepe's IS a talented Pizza Restaurant. I know - I love their pizza. And Frank Pepe's HAS significant value to the loyal customer base they - like many successful businesses - created. But that value lives, for the most part, within the boundaries of the city of New Haven, and neighboring cities. The significant question is not 'does it have value' - most businesses have loyal customers who would wholeheartedly affirm their value, many of which may have been the '5th' or the '6th' of their kind in the country. Instead, the question that arises - and which must be used for selection criteria into an encyclopedia is 'Does it have value to an IMPARTIAL observer'. Would an impartial judge see value in Frank Pepe's historic accomplishments?

I'm occasionally atracted to the idea of publishing an article which will let the world know how great something dear to me is. It's a human tendency. But if we let these tendencies dictate the content of encyclopedias, we end up with obsolete sources of knowledge of questionable authenticity and value. There is a place for our human tendencies; but an encyclopedia is the place for impartial, verifiable knowledge. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lifeson22 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

I agree with some of your principles, but I also think it is important to remember that "wikipedia is not paper". I think this place is notable enough considering the "space" available on wikipedia (which is much, much greater than in a print encyclopedia). It is mentioned in books specifically about pizza and its history. It is mentioned in works of fiction. It is mentioned in biographies. And of course, it is mentioned in boooks about New Haven (and not only tourist guides). This article was nominated for deletion once and the consensus was to keep. In case anyone cares, I didn't create this article (I added a picture and edited the references a bit), and I am not affiliated with Pepe's in any way (I have visited it twice). I did live in New Haven for several years. Itub 14:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm the original creator of the article, and I don't have any affiliation with the restaurant, either. I also lived in New Haven for several years, though, so I did eat at the restaurant from time to time, but I wasn't really aware that it was any different from any other favorite college-town pizza hangout until I discovered that people I knew were making trips to New Haven just to eat the pizza. You'll note that even the Wikipedia article about New Haven, Connecticut mentions Pepe's right at the top as one of the things the city is famous for. Dr.frog 22:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia, not an encyclopedia. Having said that, Calvin Trillin first mentions Pepe's in his 1960s novel The Tummy Trilogy. He mentions New Haven Connecticut being Pizza's Holy City with Pepe's being one of the best. Having been immortalized in literature surely seals it's fate on the pages of Wikipedia. Jsderwin 09:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Here are more examples of books (found on Google) that mention Pepe's. Some are historical, some biographical, some fiction, some about food, one is a tourist guide.
  • Roadfood: The All-new, Updated, and Expanded Edition By Jane and Michael Stern
  • The Italian American Experience in New Haven: Images and Oral Histories - By Anthony V. Riccio
  • New Haven: Reshaping the City, 1900-1980 By New Haven Colony Historical Society
  • USA. By Jeff Campbell
  • The American Oxonian
  • 201 Atwater By Marion Marchetto
  • Philippa By Martha Matus Schipul
  • Collision at Home Plate: The Lives of Pete Rose and Bart Giamatti By James Reston, Jr., James Reston
  • Through the Kitchen Window: Women Explore the Intimate Meanings of Food and Cooking By Arlene Voski Avakian

--Itub 11:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)