Talk:Francization of Brussels

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[edit] This is a translation

This is a translation of the Dutch wiki site, with references and all. Will be a work in progress, but the Dutch version is very nicely written. Any help is requested--Daveblack (talk) 15:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch or Brabantian

This article is about the shift from one language to another —not about the (still ongoing) process of replacing dialects by standard languages. If one thinks like that, this entire article is pointless, since that happened everywhere in Europe during the past century. The language of Brussels was Dutch, of course in its older form, and in spoken language, the Brabantian dialect, but Dutch was used in the local administration, literature, etc, it was the local cultural language till French took over this role. Therefore, mentioning the fact that local people spoke their own dialect only makes the introduction more complicated since this in se had nothing to do with the shift to French, and thus it is not an oversimplification. Not the fact that people spoke there own dialects made them switch to French, it's the fact that every connection with the Dutch standard language was (also actively) taken away. Linking this to Flemish nationalism, is totally ridiculous. --Hooiwind (talk) 22:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Please use a username to edit articles. You should know that the results of those censuses were always doubted by Flemings: thus now using it as to prove that French overtook Dutch (or Brabantian, Flemish, Low Country Chinese, or whatever) already in 1910 is irrelevant. You are dragging less relevant things into the first (!) sentence of an article, that creates bias, not the other way around. You might just as well say that nobody spoke Dutch in Belgium nor the Netherlands than since the 60s, which is clearly totally incorrect. This is not only about daily speech, it's about the shift from one language to the other, in every aspect of life. That's why mentioning that 'only' the dialect was spoken, is both not true and gives a too narrow interpretation to the francization. --Hooiwind (talk) 22:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC) Answer:
a- I created an account. Happy now?
b- Concerning the language spoken by the majority of the inhabitants of Brussels before the 19th century, it was a mix of Southern Brabantian dialects, I think everybody agree with that, including you. Nobody is trying to hide the fact that these South Brabantian dialects were highly related to Dutch, in fact the sentence that you keep reverting specifically says "the majority of people spoke local Brabantian dialects OF THE DUTCH LANGUAGE". Can't be more clear than that.
c- This insistance to write that people in Brussels spoke Dutch is wrong for two reasons. First it is inaccurate. People did not speak standard Dutch, they spoke dialects that were related to standard Dutch but distinct from it. In fact people from Amsterdam would have had trouble understanding people from Brussels speaking in their local dialect. To write that people in Brussels spoke Dutch is as inaccurate as writing that people in Strasbourg spoke German when in fact they spoke Alsatian, a regional language related to but quite distinct from standard German. Of course the written language of the Brabantian speakers of Brussels was standard Dutch (or sometimes a mix of Brabantian and standard Dutch), but don't forget that a lot of people didn't know how to write and read, and anyway what this article discusses is the language people spoke (orally). Second, this insistance to write that the language of Brussels was Dutch is politically controversial. I hope you do realize this is exactly the propaganda of the Flemish extremist parties such as the Vlaams Blok who wish to portray Brussels as a "Flemish" and "Dutch"-speaking city (when in fact it was a Brabantian city, not a Flemish city, and people spoke Brabantian, not standard Dutch), this in order to "reconquer" Brussels, which is the avowed goal of the Vlaams Blok.
d- Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we need to be accurate and precise, and not oversimply things, especially when this oversimplification is politically controversial. Juste imagine if a German extremist decided to change the Strasbourg article and write that Strasbourg was a city whose language was originally German that was later Francized (is that even a word in English by the way?), when in fact people in Strasbourg never spoke standard German (only a small minority did so), they spoke Alsatian (and used standard German only as a written language) and then they gradually switched to French. The current wording is both precise ("Brabatian dialects") and does not hide the strong relationship between Brabantian and standard Dutch ("of the Dutch language"), so please let's leave it at that. Unless of course you have ulterior motives of a political nature, but I hope that's not the case.
e- Concerning the 1910 census in Brussels, your personal opinion is that its results are doubtful. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but from what I understand articles on Wikipedia cannot be based on personal opinion. Articles must be based on established facts supported by sources. Unless you have a source that specifically says that the results of the 1910 census in Brussels cannot be trusted, please kindly stop removing these census figures. I hope this clarifies all points. Bruxelloise (talk) 01:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

"Language" and "standard language" are two distinct concepts, and you stubbornly keep mixing them up. Standard Dutch is just one particular variety of the Dutch language. All local dialects and regiolects are fullfledged varieties of Dutch too: they ARE, in fact, Dutch; not Standard Dutch, but still Dutch. So your claim that "the South Brabantian dialects of Brussels were highly related to Dutch" is, with all due respect, linguistic nonsens. Again, they aren't just "highly related to" Dutch, they ARE Dutch. Like many other languages all over the world, Dutch comes in many varieties. Get used to it.
People from Amsterdam might have had trouble understanding people from Brussels speaking in their local dialect. Well of course, that's language variety in a nutshell for you. People from Florence might have had trouble understanding people from Naples speaking in their local dialect, yet nobody would oppose calling Naples an Italian speaking city. People from London might have had, and may still have, trouble understanding people from Newcastle speaking their local dialect, yet nobody would oppose calling Newcastle an English speaking city.
There are other examples of language shifts in Europe throughout history. In Ireland, English was imposed and the Irish language disappeared or got marginalized to the point of extinction. In Dublin, Cork and Galway, people once spoke different dialects of Irish. Yet, nobody would be accused of spreading propaganda if they said Dublin originally was an Irish speaking city. Parts of western Finland, which were originally Swedish speaking, are now predominantly or entirely Finnish speaking. The old Swedish dialects spoken in Finland, e.g. Ostrobothnian dialects, are quite distinct from the Swedish spoken in Stockholm, yet nobody would say it's inaccurate or nationalist propaganda that those parts of Finland underwent language shift from Swedish to Finnish, and that we ought to talk about a shift from Ostrobothnian to Finnish instead. In the same vein, the linguistic history of Brussels shows a gradual shift from being a Dutch speaking city into a bilingual, although predominantly French-speaking city, and there's nothing extremist or politically controversial about that the usage of the term Dutch in this context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.250.54 (talk) 04:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
[Italics added for clarity. 213.114.250.54 (talk) 10:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)]
I think there is indeed a difference between stating that Brussels was a Dutch-speaking city and a city where people spoke Dutch. The first one is without doubt true, the latter is indeed open to discussion since, as everywhere in Europe, people spoke dialects. That's why I prefer the current wording The Francization of Brussels transformed Brussels from an almost entirely Dutch-speaking, over a bilingual, to a multilingual city with French as the majority language and lingua franca. That a city was Dutch-speaking includes way more than just the fact that people spoke (a dialect of) Dutch. It's exactly that shift from Dutch to French in all layers of society (in spoken language, the loss of Brabantian, as cultural language, the loss of Dutch) that is being delt with here. It puts Brussels apart from the rest of originally Dutch-speaking Belgium, contains no nationalistic claims whatsoever and lacks any partizan undertone, right? --Roofbird (talk) 08:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
And what Hooiwind said about using the census as evidence, is true: see [1] "Opeenvolgende talentellingen toonden een gestage verfransing van de Brusselse Rand en werden door de Vlamingen fel gecontesteerd." And also, see [2] and see the large number of 'bilingual' people —those were Flemings able to speak French, not a sign that French had already overtaken Dutch, but rather that Brussels had achieved a real bilingual nature. --Roofbird (talk) 08:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
This edit warring, which is in clear violation of the WP:3RR, has to stop. The worst part here is that the edit war is on something which is fairly trivial. I'd first like to say that I'm an expat living in Brussels, so I think it can be said that I'm not really subject to any biases that might be caused being raised on one side or the other of the language divide. I think that to say in the lead that the locals spoke a specific dialect of Dutch does not belong in the lead, as it detracts from the focus of the article. In fact, I think also that if one were to refer to the francization of Strasbourg, it would also not merit mention in the lead that the German they spoke was not Standard German, which can be mentioned later without loss of clarity. Please instead try to focus your efforts on actually getting the article translated. -Oreo Priest 08:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
@Roofbird, you apparantly mix up the concepts of "Dutch" and "Standard Dutch" too, just like Bruxelloise does. Brussels was a city where people most certainly spoke Dutch. Any particular kind of Dutch? Sure, mostly not standard Dutch as we know it today, but rather the local Brabantian dialects of Dutch, and even more specifically the local Brussels dialect (by other Flemish people usually considered a very charming and pretty dialect by the way, unlike e.g. the dialect from nearby Leuven). In short, not Standard Dutch, but Dutch notwithstanding. 213.114.250.54 (talk) 11:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The source provided by Roofbird refers to the linguistic censuses held in the periphery of Brussels in 1930 and particularly 1947, i.e. after the linguistic border came into existence and municipalities could switch side if there was a change of the majority language in the municipality. The 1947 census was particularly denounced by Flemings as a fraud in many municipalities. On the other hand, the 1910 census in Brussels was uncontroversial since there existed no linguistic border at the time and no rule that a municipality switch sides if the majority language changed. So I see no reason to consider that this census is wrong, especially given that no one so far has been able to bring a source proving that this 1910 census was of poor quality. As for the word "overtaken", I have replaced it with the exact words from the census question: "language spoken exclusively or most frequently". Godefroy (talk) 14:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

@ 213... Of course people in Brussels spoke Dutch, but seen the numerous reverts sticking to "Dutch-speaking city" leaves out the dialect matter. @Godefroy, my source is indeed not about the 1910 census, but the second source shows the bilingual fase Brussels went through before passing on to a multilingual, mainly French-speaking city. With a percentage of 42,2% of bilingual people in 1910 (and an equal number for Dutch-only and French-only), this is rather a sign of how French gained its place next to Dutch and only then gradually managed to overtake it, seen the drop of Dutch-only in favour for Dutch+French and from that category to French-only. Only with this comment the census of 1910 can be used here (and not only stating the most spoken language), since the locals passed from Dutch-only over bilingualism to French-only, not a sudden switch from Dutch to French. The interesting thing (see the original Dutch article, of which this one is a translation) is why Dutch was dropped and bilingualism wasn't seen as useful. --Roofbird (talk) 17:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Roofbird. The 1910 census only proves that French infiltrated into the Flemish community, and that only after 1910 bilinguals dropped Dutch and became monolingual French-speakers. The number of bilingual people remained stable between 1890 and 1947, showing an influx from the category NL to NL+FR and a simultaneous outflow to FR. Interpreting this as Bruxelloise does in the article about Belgium: Until the end of the 19th century the majority of its inhabitants spoke local Brabantian dialects of the Dutch language. However a large-scale francization of Brussels started in the 19th century. As a result, by the 1910 census, the French language had overtaken the local Brabantian dialects in what is now the Capital Region. This has a rather POV and inaccurate undertone.
From one of the numerous studies of the VUB on this topic: [3]
p391: Tot omstreeks 1880 bleven de taalverhoudingen desalniettemin vrij stabiel: ongeveer een derde Vlamingen, een derde tweetaligen en een vijfde à een kwart Franstaligen.
p392: Verruimde onderwijsvoorzieningen voor de arbeidersklasse verspreidden het burgerlijke cultuurpatroon via het Frans in brede lagen van de arbeidersklasse. Dat zo de culturele band met het linguïstisch en sociaal milieu verslapte, bewijzen de talentellingen eveneens: vanaf 1880 verminderde de impact van de Nederlands-ééntaligen ten voordele van de tweetaligengroep om vanaf 1910 de Frans-ééntaligen te versterken.
Note also that in all those studies, people are said to speak Dutch. A more accurate and NPOV wording would be: "Since 1880 more and more Dutch-speaking people became bilingual, resulting in a rise of monolingual French-speakers after 1910.", or something of the like. However, I indeed put it wrong before: it's not really the census itself which is truqué, although it is also said in all those studies of the VUB, that the definition of "bilingualism" changed numerous times and is as such a very subjective matter, urging for reluctance to use it as evidence rather than an indication. It's more the interpretation of the numbers, namely the version of Bruxelloise, which is wrong. --Hooiwind (talk) 11:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Come on guys

Seriously, I think far more important than bickering over comparatively small details like this is actually getting the article translated. The talk page is now more than twice as long as the article itself, which is, quite frankly, absurd. Could those who speak Dutch please direct their efforts instead towards further translation? Thanks, Oreo Priest 13:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Before 10th century?

What language was spoken in the region before 10th century? Was it a Germanic, Celtic or Romance language? Why did the region change language then? Aaker (talk) 21:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The city only exists since the 10th century. At least from the 5th century on in this area (only) Old Dutch (Frankish) was spoken, thus Germanic. Celtic was of course spoken basically everywhere in Europe before the colonisation by the Romans and the invasions of Germanic peoples, but that's not really relevant here, since it's such a long time ago. --Hooiwind (talk) 10:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] About the results of the linguistic census

As I have been instrumental in putting the results of the linguistic censuses on Wikipedia (Dutch and French version), I invite everybody able to read and understand Dutch to read the article "Talentelling" on the Dutch Wikipedia, where you will find at least some proven facts about the questionnable results of the census of 1930 and the attitude of the French speaking administration in Brussels with regard to the 1920 census. Boerkevitz (talk) 14:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:ENGVAR

Under WP:ENGVAR, European articles do not have to be in UK English. You'll notice it says EU Institutions and not all European related articles, for which the general rule applies. In the Francization of Brussels' case, the translator is American, so we stick with that. Cheers. -Oreo Priest talk 18:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If there is a single city that should use UK/IRL/EU English, it would be french-speaking and de facto EU capital Brussels. This is justifiable common sense; the Wikipedia guidelines shouldn't always be followed slavishly. - and especially when it comes to UK/US English. "Honour" is the name of an article, not "Honor". Wonder why. - S Solberg J 19:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
If you'r OK with it, perhaps we can use Frenchification? - S Solberg J 19:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I still don't agree with that logic, the ties are not strong enough to justify a preferred variety. By similar logic, Paris and Paris related topics should be in Canadian English, as de facto capital of La Francophonie. I like the sound of Frenchification, as it is a lot more clear a word than Francisation, but my only concern is that it's might be more slang than academic. What does everyone else think? -Oreo Priest talk 15:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Francization is already used by that article, so I went with that. Frenchification sounds a bit too much like a neologism. Also, this fits in line with the template http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cultural_assimilation , which uses sation/zation. On that template, there is even an option to switch between -sation and -zation depending on the spelling variant of the article. --Daveblack (talk) 11:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
For some reason, to me frenchification sounds more like "wannabee French" or actively turning something French, whereas francisation would imply "being French" or the evolution of something becoming French... (I'll have to admit it doesn't make sense though.) But are you sure you write francisation, Frenchification and so on with a capital letter? For instance, you also write anglicise and not Anglicise. --Hooiwind (talk) 14:02, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
You may be right. While the term we use now is technically correct, I'm a tiny bit concerned that most people will have no idea what it means and thus the title of the article might not be helpful to them. I'm very well read (not to boast), but I have never before or since seen the term francization, and it was not initially clear to me what it meant.
As for the capitalization: it seems to vary in usage even within a term. Quick Google searches for germanification, lusification, romanization and russification showed capitalization is inconsistent. I guess we should just worry about keeping it uniform within this article. -Oreo Priest talk 15:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch or Brabantian (bis)

To use the word "Dutch" in an article about Brussels is a dangerous oversimplification, There were various regional languages in the Low Countries in the Middle Ages. at least four in what is today the Netherlands and three in the "Flemish" part of today's Belgium,West Flemish, East Flemish and "Diets" (itself divided in Brabantian and Limburgish). There is a profound difference in the sentence structure between these groups: Flemish uses the germanic sentence structure whilst diets uses the romance one. Before 1950, when the "Taal unie" treaty between Belgium and the Netherlands was signed, it was customary to speak of Flemish and Hollandish (Hollandsch). I don't really know who of Leonard De Bo or Guido Gezelle, two famous West Flemish writers, defined "Hollansch" as a half pagan, half jewish language (shows how popular it was in Western Flanders...). So, I would suggest using "Flemish" instead of "Dutch". though it is not historically nor linguistically accurate since Brabantian diets was the language spoken.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.244.230.129 (talk) 20:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your contribution, but you should open a new section instead of adding your message in the middle of an old section. I've opened a new section for you. You're completely right about Brabantian. I actually raised that point several months ago already, but unfortunately the authors of this article seem bent on presenting Brussels as a Dutch-speaking city that was turned into a French-speaking city, which is essentially what the Flemish nationalist parties always say, instead of presenting the much more complex situation of a city where people spoke Brabantian dialects distinct from standard Dutch and later adopted French as their standard (formal) language instead of adopting standard Dutch as happened in Flanders. Perhaps if more and more people keep posting messages about this oversimplification we can manage to correct the article in the end. Bruxelloise (talk) 15:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
This is ridiculous, and, quite frankly, nonsense. This process marks the substitution of one language by an other, not the simple replacement of dialects by standard languages (thàt would be the oversimplification), as happened anywhere in Europe during the past century. To the extent that people could read and write in a cultural language, in Brussels this was Dutch (of course, as in Berlin, Moscow and The Hague, French was the language of the court —that is also mentioned). Also, Brabantian is just a dialect, not a language, and together with Hollandic (not Flemish) one of the two pilars on which the Dutch standard language was built, and therefore making a distinction between the two becomes even more pointless. As explained in the article, linguistic measures cut off the link with the Dutch standard language (mainly through French-only education) with the effect that from the 1880s on, most Dutch dialect speakers turned to French rather than standard Dutch (which would have been the natural evolution). It is exactly that what makes the process somewhat remarkable, and what this article is about. What both of you insinuate is that Dutch was a 20th-century invention (then, you might just as welll state that West Flanders still isn't a Dutch-speaking province but Flemish-speaking, which is, obviously, ridiculous). Indeed, dialects were distinct from region to region (as everywhere in Europe), but the language has always been DUTCH. The problem with Dutch is that is has a billion names, with different meanings depending on the context, but still, Brabantian is just as Dutch as Dutch itself. --Hooiwind (talk) 08:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
However, I do understand your concern. But again, the entire issue here is the shift from one language to another (Dutch to French), and attention shouldn't be drawn to the fact that this process overlapped with the 20th century phenomenon of vulgarisation of standard languages (Brabantian to Dutch). The fact that people spoke Brabantian at home (not closely related to, but just a variant of Dutch) is only worth mentioning where this belongs, deeper down the article. Whatever you, and many others, may think: dropping the dialect (Brabantian) of a language (Dutch) which
  • served as a language of culture (= standard language) throughout history (see section about the Middle Ages)
  • and, at the time of the shift, still flourished as language of culture elsewhere (in the Northern Netherlands and their colonies),
in favour of another (standard) language (French) is NOT a natural evolution. If it were, this article wouldn't have been written at all! And the fact that some extremist party abuses this historical and linguistic fact, doesn't necessarily make it less true. Personally, I am sufficiently bilingual and aware of history not to be manipulated by either side. On the contrary.--Hooiwind (talk) 12:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I utterly agree with Hoowind. Before the languages got standardized, i.e. before mass education, both Romanic and Germanic sprachraums were dialects continua. Before that time French means all variations of it (Walloon, Picard, etc...) and Dutch means the same (West Flemish, Limburgish, etc...). The discussion is here the shift of the language border between those two sprachraums. Vb 10:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.233.241.253 (talk)
I also agree with Hooiwind 100%. -Oreo Priest talk 13:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs a new title

Leaving aside that "francisation" is not a word, the title of this article is misleading. An "-isation" process is done by someone, so who francised Brussels?

There is no person/group who francised Brussels. Brussels changed over time. One possible title would be "History of language usage in Brussels", or "The transition of Brussels from Dutch speaking to French speaking". Suggestions sought. --Gronky (talk) 11:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Francisation/Francization are in fact existing words, although not often heard. There are no better synonyms and this is the most neutral term. The suffix -isation can be used for so many more things than just an action, it can used for processes or states of being as well: means the act, process, or result of making or doing, action, process, or result of making or state or quality of to become, become like... Also, even it was used primarily as a suffix indicating an action, it can still be an event resulting from a certain situation (marginalization of the status of Dutch in the Austrian Netherlands). For instance: not only people can francise, also situation can. Plus, what you claim is wrong. The francisation was the result of an active policy for sure (see the term francisation measures + check some Québec websites), even if you say that people francised themselves. For all these reasons, I am utterly opposed to changing the title as it would be pointless and the current title is bold, to the point and in no way misleading.--Hooiwind (talk) 11:58, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, -ization musn't necessarily imply intend to. Done on purpose or not, all factors combined gave rise to what could, is and should be called a francisation process.--Hooiwind (talk) 12:10, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Those definitions you turned up all require someone to do something. Yes, the French tried to "francisise" Brussels (I'll concede that that word exists), but this article isn't just about what the French did. This article is about a much bigger topic. If there was an article "The French attempts to francisise Brussels", that would be no problem. Not only would the use of "francisise" be accurate, but there would be a "who" for the action, so the word "francisise" would then be being used correctly.
The current title is only good for generating controversy at a debate. Brussels wasn't francisised, the people (to some degree) picked what they saw as a more useful language. The title wrongly implies it was done to them. This belittle's the will of the people of Brussels. Yes, some people/groups did try to francisise Brussels, but these are not the (only) reason for Brussels being French speaking today. Also, by talking only of drancisation, the dutchisation efforts of today are ignored.
It would be more accurate to title this "The rise of French in Brussels". --Gronky (talk) 13:10, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
What the dutchisation efforts if I may ask? The Flemish demands for a bilingual administration? However, if you insist on a new title, I think The decline of Dutch or Rise of French or so could be an ersatz. Languages in Brussels or variants wouldn't really cover the topic (which is focused on Dutch-French) since since the 1960s hundreds of languages are spoken now. Francisation is indeed rarely used, but has not invented here. It is as such not a sacred word for me, although you're the first one to raise objections to it. I can follow your argumentation if you say that it is not an well known word, but not that it would blame the French or so (because even in French it is called "francisation de Bruxelles")... In any case you should wait a few more days before changing the title.--Hooiwind (talk) 14:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I better preface this by pointing out that I'm not criticising the attempts to increase the use of Dutch in Brussels. (Ik leer nederlands, dus denk ik dat hun werk heel nuttig is.)
The Flemish government are subsidising Dutch courses, first through VUB and second through giving language checks to French speakers who live in Brussels. In addition, they're buying a lot of very central buildings in Brussels, particularly around Muntplein for promotion of Flemish culture and langauge (this is something the French community of Belgium cannot match, for financial reasons). I've heard there is financial assistance for Flemish speakers who want to buy a house in Brussels (but I've also heard that this is a false rumour (but I've also heard that, no, it's actually true)). That, and pushing for equal language rights despite less than 10% of the residents speaking Dutch.
This isn't forceful, but neither were most of the causes of Brussels' fransisation. However, these projects are efforts to (re)flemish-ify Brussels.
Changing the title of this article doesn't have to be rushed. I'm the first to raise objections, but that's probably because I'm one of the first wikipedians who wasn't involved in the writing of the source article in Dutch to start looking into the content of this article. It's a long, detailed article, and it appeared quite suddenly a few months ago. It'll take some time for an en.w.o community (which'll include you and I) to build up around it to work on it's future development. --Gronky (talk) 10:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the article name is, according to Wiki usage, a neologism; unknown, unclear, and weird-sounding to the native English-speaker. "Frenchification of Brussels", although not perfect in tone, would be more clear and familiar article title. Even "Gallicization of Brussels" although almost as difficult to pronounce and less obvious in meaning to many English-speakers, is still better than the current title -- and arguably more clear and more "encyclopedic" than "Frenchification". The other names suggested above sound POV. FactStraight (talk) 05:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Francisation of Brussels" is a neologism

Whatever happens to the title of this article, I want to record here that as of today (May 30th 2008) there is only 1 google hit for "Francisation of Brussels" if you exclude "wikipedia" (which is done by adding "-wikipedia" to the search. That one hit is a mirror site of wikipedia.

For the same search, but spelling it "francization", you get 9 hits.

  • 1 page is blank (except for a title "comments about francization of brussels" and a comment box.
  • 1 makes no reference to wikipedia (and dates to March 3rd 2008, a month after this article appeared) [4]
  • 7 are wikipedia mirror sites

So it cannot be accurate for the article to say, as it does now, that the change of language over time in Brussels is "called the "Francization of Brussels,"". Quite simply, according to Google, no one has used that term, ever, online before this article appeared on wikipedia. At best, we can say that what happened "could be called...". I'll make that change, although I think this is still giving too much prominence to this neologism. --Gronky (talk) 13:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Let me clear some things up. Yes, Francization of Brussels is a new term. Why? Because English language coverage of this sort of topic is very poor in general. Francization of Brussels is a very accurate title for this article in many ways. It is (would be) clear and to the point, it is what happened in an objective sense, and it is concise. To say we need to say it "could be called x" because there was no official policy by that name simply does not make sense. The title, is our 'creation' if you will, because there is no commonly accepted title for the event, and the article needs a title. I have removed the "called the ..." section, because Gronky was right, it was misleading.
However, the title is unsatisfactory for many reasons. The foremost in my mind is that most people have no idea what the word Francization means, and the title is thus unwieldy and unhelpful. My two cents on some suggestions:
  • "History of language usage in Brussels" not nearly pithy or clear enough, in addition to not being the scope of the article.
  • "The transition of Brussels from Dutch speaking to French speaking" This has the right spirit, but is a monster of a title, something shorter would be better.
  • The decline of Dutch or Rise of French - I think this is closer in that it's concise and clear, but neither seems quite perfect to me. "Rise of the French language in Brussels" perhaps? Or "Decline of Dutch and Rise of French in Brussels"?
  • "Frenchification of Brussels" per above, would be also quite clear, but sounds to me a bit informal/non-academic.
I think we should keep brainstorming. Also, I might IP vote/comment, because I'm going on Wikibreak now. -Oreo Priest talk 13:23, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Another: "Replacement of Dutch by French in Brussels". --Gronky (talk) 11:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)