Talk:Francisco Franco/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Opening comments

Just a hint: I'm a wikipedian raw newbie (but a proffessional wiki user) and because of this I apologize in advance if my procedure has been not correct or efficient. I have made a minor contribution to this entry (check the last version) --> about the volunteers who went to the Eastern Front against Russians. I have talked about some military professionals who were forced to go. I have no quotations nor written sources, but my uncle was one of them. He and a lot of his colleagues did not want to go, but Spanish Army right after the war was a black/white territory, and a bad move in the bad movement could cost a life.

No, Jiang. It isn't enough to put the name once if the one version is a complicated long one. You and I may be able to understand the structure of his name but not everyone would. Remember kids doing school projects may visit this page and it would be helpful to state the short name at the start of the page, with then the full name. Just using the long name alone is not user-friendly.

If he is known as Francisco Franco then that has to be stated clearly. Frankly if only one name could be used, that is the one that should be. Putting the long name name in bold italics in parentheses is the standard way to deal with the full name (or has become so lately) and is the best way visually to provide both forms of name, so I have reverted your change. lol FearÉIREANN 05:31 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It is given in the title of the page that this is indeed Francisco Franco. I think that is clear enough. It is the convention, except with European royalty where a title supercedes the name, to list the entire full name as the first thing in the article and only the entire full name. This is done for all American presidents, and others such as H. G. Wells and Carlos Salinas. I'll settle for the last edit by Mkweise, which reiterates the common name, yet stays consistent with all the other articles in stating the full name first. And please don't revert my entire edit when I have made other contributions besides the part you intend to do away with. --Jiang 05:45 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

1. Sorry if I reverted some other edits. They did not show up on my screen. (Wiki has done some strange things tonight. At one stage it would not let me move a page, then when I looked at the random pages I found it had moved it, but left the talk page orphaned!)

2. No it is not the case that this is the format only followed with European royalty. There are vast numbers of articles on people who have long versions and short versions of names. The previous format many of these used was to put a birth name down in the article in bold. That was proving unsightly and other options were discussed. One was that if the article already has two versions in (and this one had) to do as with royalty and put the full name - particularly where it was in a language and format that might not be easily understandable, ie, surname not at the end - in bold italics in parentheses. I was in fact the person who made the suggestion before going away for a few days. When I came back I found that a lot of people had begun changing at lot of articles to this format which everyone agreed was the most user-friendly format to use. A large number of articles have been put in this format by a large number of people and many new ones added in it. It is patently absurd not to use the common name as the opening words and that is how a large proportion of new users have been putting in articles. FearÉIREANN 06:07 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

points of view and facts

I removed the following two statements: the first because it violates the neutral point of view and the second because its factually inaccurate.

Franco soon gained a reputation as a meticulous and fearless officer 

What is the source of this statement, the official Franco biography? Unless someone can give a source that pre-dates Franco's rise to power I don't see a reason to include it.

Becoming the youngest general in any European army in 1926, 

Tukhachevsky was leading 100,000 soldiers into war at the age of 27 in 1920! In 1926, although he was a year younger than Franco, he was serving as chief of staff of the Red Army. --145.94.41.95 14:45, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tuka was Russian, that's not necisarilly European. I guess by "European", the author meant "Western european"? -Alex 12.220.157.93 23:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC).

A quick question (Secret police)

Under Franco's rule, was there a secret police force? If so, what was it called?

I don't remember one. The Guardia Civil (Spain), Dirección General de Seguridad, military courts, Falange, would be enough. --Error 23:41, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please don't confuse Guardia Civil (Spain) with a kind of secret police. It is just a police corp and existed long before Franco was born. Dirección General de Seguridad was the responsible for repression on political parties, including tortures.

The closest thing to a secret police force (Gestapo/KGB like) was the "Brigada Politico-Social" of the "Direccion General de Seguridad", the "sociales". It was the section of the plainclothes police which dealt with political crimes.

At least in the 60's and 70's their members were everything but "secret", on purpose. Also every armed forces branch, the various police corps, the Presidency of the Government, and, for a time, the Party had their own intelligence office, which could also engage on political surveillance. All in all, by the demise of Franco's regime most if not all the oppositional movement was heavily infiltrated (the best known example today is the "Lobo" affair, a mid 70's policeman infiltrated into ETA)--Wllacer 01:20, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

NPOV tag

I had added the NPOV tag because I consider that the article does not comply with the Wikipedia NPOV policy. As I understand it, it means that all points of view must be fairly described and that a particular point of view cannot be treated as if it were a proven fact. I want to make clear that I do not oppose the information included in the article (excluding some passages I consider are mistakes) but I consider it must be completed to be 100% valid.

The specific parts I believe are not neutral are the following:

• "When miners in Asturias started a full scale rebellion a year later, it was Franco who ensured that colonial troops were sent to crush the uprising." I believe that the rebellion was intended to take place in all of Spain in order to overthrow the existing "democratic" government. A lot of important politicians took part in the plot and were arrested after it failed. Besides, in Catalonia there were also some incidents (although the rebels were defeated in 24 hours). It was not only the miners and not only in Asturias.

• "Franco's government actively promoted this division between "victors" and "vanquished" while its incompetence did little to improve the economic situation." As you can imagine, there are a lot of alternative theories.

I believe the following is a mistake: "Franco is buried at Santa Cruz del Valle de los Caídos, [...]. Later, the Spanish Government of José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero decided (2005) to convert the site in an homage to democracy." I believe the decision has not been made yet .

While I am sure you know what you're talking about, my first impression when I browsed by this page and saw the NPOV tag was that the page must have been hijacked by neo-Fascists or something. According to what you write, the problem is of a much less serious nature. Why not use some weaker version, such as factual inaccuracy? Jørgen 28 June 2005 20:25 (UTC)

First of all, thank you for your interests. I believe the NPOV tag is the most suitable here as the points I talked about in my previous edit are really existing theories to explain the History of Spain and Franco's life. I believed the article is not neutral because they are presented like proven facts not like theories. My aim including the tag was simply to warn other users of that. In fact, in my opinion the information included in the article (excluding some mistakes) must be preserved in future versions.

Unfortunately, I'm not an expert user so perhaps you are right as I do not know all the differences between the meaning of the NPOV tag and those used to identify factual inaccuracies. Hagiographer 29 June 2005 16:38 (UTC)

I am not an expert user either, not at all, I just wanted to mention my first impression as I dropped by this article while intending to learn more about the Spanish Civil War. I suggest that you remove the tag if you do not intend to improve the page soon, however, if you disagree, that's fine with me. Jørgen 29 June 2005 19:44 (UTC)

Indeed, the NPOV tag is overkill in this case. We're talking about pretty minor issues I think. Either do the changes yourself or remove the tag. Why does every political article in the Wikipedia have to have the NPOV tag? Javier 6 July 2005

Removed NPOV tag. Interestingly, the book that lead me to this subject (The Blind Man in Sevilla) is about a guy called Javier. OK, that was probably not interesting. Jørgen 11:49, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Franco and fascism

I removed Franco from Category:Fascists since he did not consider himself as such and people who call him that use it mostly as an insult. He was more of a conservative-authoritarian military leader, in the same way as Augusto Pinochet (who is also frequently accused of being fascist on loose grounds). /Jebur 3 July 2005 03:02 (UTC)

It is ironic that although Franco is considered to be a typical fascist and the fight against him to be an anti-fascist struggle, he wasn't a Fascist. NYCity Expat 01:39, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Somebody added December 10 on the head of the article the apelative fascist to Franco. I erased because as previous comments mark, even as a taxonomy term is debatable. Probably the same discussion could be applied to Oliveira Salazar and Engelbert Dollfuss. Anyhow it would make an interesting subtopic on the article --Wllacer 09:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, Franco was a nationalist, and the Republican army had mostly become Communist during the course of the war, so of course they are going to accuse him of being a fascist

Catalan language

The Catalan language was banned,

This could cause to think that Catalan was absolutely banned from 1936 to 1975. Either the article gets more precise or "banned" is toned down. --Error 01:49, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

As somebody seems to have put it again on the article, to make this discussion rest forever (I hope) some samples (remember that ALL the books published had to pass, at least before the 60's, a previous censure):

• IIRC, the first book published in Catalan after the war was Elegies de Bierville from Carles Riba in 1942
• Salvador Espriu published -in catalan- his first book after the war in 1946.
• Editorial Destino (IIRC), had a line of catalan books from the late 40's onward
• Editions 62 is named after the year it started to publish

Any of this samples, makes highly unlikely any general banning. It's true only spanish was allowed in the Public Administration (as it was before 1932), that they weren't taught at school -but on the university-, that the usage of the other spanish languages was publicly discouraged, and looked upon with suspicion (the link with the separatist threat was too obvious). Is also true that specially during the 40's some use spanish only campaigns were started, and that some provincial and local authorities, and teachers went too far, but a general ban AFAIK never happened --Wllacer 09:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

It would sure be nice if someone wanted to research exactly what restrictions existed. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Another interesting point would be the actual use in mass. The Catholic church kept alive the languages to reach the peasant population. The Tridentine Mass would be in Latin, of course, but from some certain year, Catalan, Galician or Basque sermons would be preached, I guess. --Error 00:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Good question. But there might be distorting factors. I remember having read eons ago that the bishopric of Tortosa already ordered to preach in spanish by the XVII century. It was a detail that struck me, but i never followed it--Wllacer 11:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

On 16-II-1939 a Franco's Decree states «queda prohibido el uso del catalán en calidad de segundo idioma».

"Between 1939 and 1975, during the dictatorship following the Civil War, Catalan was subject to intense and systematic persecution, especially until 1962. The publishing of books, newspapers and magazines, the sending of telegrams, and telephone conversations in Catalan were all banned. Films could only be shown in Castilian and stage productions were only put on in this language. Radio and television could only be broadcasted in Castilian. Government, notarial, legal and commercial documents were drawn up exclusively in Castilian and any written in Catalan were deemed null and void. Road and shop signs, advertising and in general all exterior images of the country were solely in Castilian.

Despite all this, Catalan continued to be the language spoken in families in Catalonia and the rest of the Catalanspeaking territories). During this time, many writers educated during the previous period, some of whom were in exile, produced works of great importance." Source: [[1]], from an official Generalitat site.

Certainly, some uses of catalan were accepted after some few years, but only in low-level issues, in order to constraint the language to a folklore status.(Note that after the war a number of people could not understand spanish language, mainly in rural areas). Finally, in the 60's, a litle aperture of the regime lets catalan publications begin a slow recovery. Catalan was not taught at school (nor at university, of course), and childreen were often punished if they talk in catalan (writings in catalan were not accepted until the 70's, I remember it very well).

You can see a detailed cronology of such a repression in [[2]], (in catalan). --Joan sense nick 03:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

On 16-II-1939 a Franco's Decree states «queda prohibido el uso del catalán en calidad de segundo idioma».

¿May i ask for more details? I've searched the BOE's historical database [3] and I coudn't locate any decree dated 16 february 1939--Wllacer 11:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

"Between 1939 and 1975, during the dictatorship following the Civil War, Catalan was subject to intense and systematic persecution, especially until 1962. The publishing of books, newspapers and magazines, the sending of telegrams, and telephone conversations in Catalan were all banned. Films could only be shown in Castilian and stage productions were only put on in this language. Radio and television could only be broadcasted in Castilian. Government, notarial, legal and commercial documents were drawn up exclusively in Castilian and any written in Catalan were deemed null and void. Road and shop signs, advertising and in general all exterior images of the country were solely in Castilian.

Despite all this, Catalan continued to be the language spoken in families in Catalonia and the rest of the Catalanspeaking territories). During this time, many writers educated during the previous period, some of whom were in exile, produced works of great importance." Source: [[4]], from an official Generalitat site.

Certainly, some uses of catalan were accepted after some few years, but only in low-level issues, in order to constraint the language to a folklore status.(Note that after the war a number of people could not understand spanish language, mainly in rural areas). Finally, in the 60's, a litle aperture of the regime lets catalan publications begin a slow recovery. Catalan was not taught at school (nor at university, of course)

• BOE 26/IV/1958. Order to select a profesor for (inter alia) "filologia catalana"
• BOE 28/VIII/1967 A full departament of "filologia catalana" is created at the university of Barcelona

Dates are from the second half, but the 1958 order mentions the place as "vacant" not as new creation.--Wllacer 11:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

, and childreen were often punished if they talk in catalan (writings in catalan were not accepted until the 70's, I remember it very well).

You can see a detailed cronology of such a repression in [[5]], (in catalan). --Joan sense nick 03:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Joan, NOBODY here is denying that the other spanish languages were repressed to a degree beyond it's mere disallowing in administrative life. I repeat NOBODY here. What I object it's putting the "were banned" clause. We strive for OBJECTIVITY. That's why I've come forward with counter-samples.

I want to propose you one thing. Why don't you try, to come forward with a list (dated if possible, in 40 years many things change) of restrictions on, for instance, catalan? Then we could validate it and compare -or look for help- with the situation in an equivalent country (a centralized country,f.i. France). The result would give the "specifity" on the francoist case, we could add to the article. The rest would be the general case of any minority language, and is of no interest in this particular context

If you (or some other) accept the challenge, please bear in mind a couple of things

• Try to separte (but not exclude) the anecdotical from the normative. A sample (i read in one of the references you sent). Fining for a phone call in catalan is anecdotical. Systematically doing it isn't.
• Try to distinguish between regulations from the central government and regulations from local (provincial) levels. Sometimes they had more playing ground that it's usually thought. An overzealous or a lenient officer can make a difference. A sample (not related to this, but just for show). Carnivals were banned by default, but, at least in Cadiz, survived disguised -barely- with the complicity of local and provincial authorities.
• Don't take the levels of public usage of the language from 1932-1939, nor current, as a standard measure. They are in a sense exceptional.

--Wllacer 11:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I have created a skeleton at Language politics in Francoist Spain. I have great plans but got tired in the way. --Error 02:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I've linked your stub into the main article. Perhaps this way we can "fish" someone willing to complete it. Let's hope it does not become too controversial.

If nobody minds, I'll copy this thread there. It's the place where the discussion belongs

--Wllacer 08:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Please don't edit my text. This is not use in wikipedia, and a great lack of politeness. I'm not in the mood to accept "challenges" if you can't have a discussion. I've repalced my original text.--Joan sense nick 15:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Besides this, certainly, the strongest repression against Catalan-language took place in the early years: 1939-1945. It was really strong: the final target was to suppress this language. When it was evident that it will not be easy to do, and when the international context changed, the dictatorship's repression energy decreased a little bit. --Joan sense nick 15:44, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

My mistake, i broke a long paragraph. I thought it made it more clear, addind subthreads in specific statements, as I've seen in a lot of places here. I beg sorry if my behavior worried you. I take note for the future

I'm open for discussion on this topic. Sometimes i'll not have the time or the resorces to answer, and i avoid entering in either personal or political discussion. I'm not challenging anyone here. I'm codeveloping with you. You wrote some statements, I put forward some data that contradict them, and wait your answer. Besides i put a plan of how i would research the matter, if I had the time to do it. I guess you're more interested than me on this, so this is why i proposed it to you. It was not a challenge but a research plan.--Wllacer

OOOps, i reread carefully my original answer to User:Joan sens nick, and in fact, I use the word challenge. It wasn't mean as an invitation to (dialectical) duel, but on the sense that the task is hard and complex, so that the task in itself is a challenge. Mine was a pretty forward translation of the common "si aceptas el reto de hacer...".

BTW. I'm extremely interested in locating what you refer as the decree of 16/II/1939. The chronology link you added -definitevely a most interesting source- is equally vage. It could be a smoking gun if located. I've tried a couple of combinations at the BOE site, to no avail.--Wllacer 08:49, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

If nobody objects, I'll copy the whole thread to talk:Language politics in Francoist Spain, deo volens, on Wednesday morning (CET).--Wllacer

Wllacer, I accept your reasons, no trouble. I just don't use to follow the discussions on opinions: WP is not a forum. I try, if possible, to provide useful links, in order to improve the contents of the articles. I tought the reference I gave ([[6]]) was reliable enough for the prestige of the historian that signs, and a similar point of view is given by Josep Benet. But this vague 19/02/1939 decree seems to resist to be found. I've also trying it in your useful BOE site link. I'll try in the "paper" book, if I can.

I'm not an historian, but probably this decree does not exist as a general law. If does, really it should be as famous as the "Nueva Planta" decree. In my opinion, the reason is that it was not necessary to forbid Catalan-language in a general law: the state of terror among war loosers, the brutal repression after the war (civil wars are the worst), were enough to discourage any public usage of this language. Somebody that insists in using it should be quickly suspicious of "unafection" and a strong candidate to have troubles (don't forget that, in Barcelona, there were some dozens of executions every week, for years). You can see the spirit of this language repression in a (not general) Order of 21/05/1938 (published 26/05/1938 in [7]). Note the paternalistic style.

By the way, your quotations on university "vacant" places... Can you imagine where this teachers were, from 1939 to 1958? See you in Language politics in Francoist Spain. --Joan sense nick 10:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, we're up to the same, only i tend to be a little more verbose, more "socratic" ;-). And with success. IMHO your second paragraph has hit the mark, and I subscribe it. Let's think how we can put it with a good wording in the new article. And there is still a long work to do --Wllacer 10:45, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed picture

Removed since it is not very related to Franco or Spain under Franco. Besides, some Brigadists defended Stalinism. --Error 23:15, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

WhiteWash

I would contend this is a rather sanitised view of Franco's rule on display here. There is no mention of the massacres he instituted on his road to power. And the paragraph beginning "The Republic's failure to satisfy Spanish expectations...." is defnitely biased.

Franco was a "strange" character he did both things that was considered good and evil and the basques and left wing in spain have tried to make him look worse then he was. (not that he was good)+ both the Republicans and Falange massacred people under the spanish civil war.

Trinity

His death was much rejoiced across the world, and it truly signalled the end of the trinity of fascists: Hitler, Mussolini and Franco.

Was his death so really relevant? Was he so important as to be grouped with Hitler and Mussolini unlike Salazar or any of the Axis members? --Error 00:40, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I remember it been news -as it always is when a dictator dies peacefully after many years in power and transition is peaceful .... but I do not remember that rejoicing. Maybe among the communists, but that would be all. That sentence should be removed. --Anagnorisis 05:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree the US considered Franco a Friend at his death--Jack.Danish 23:21, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

If someone wants to follow up on this, I have a couple of suggestions, although much of this would better be handled at Spanish transition to democracy.

1. Allard Lowenstein was in Spain during Franco's long deathwatch, and wrote a fascinating short piece about the reactions in different sectors of Spanish society; he was an American politician, who didn't write a lot (and was murdered by a crazy man only a few years later); there's a (rather small) book of his writings out there somewhere, this is in it.
2. It would be a research project, but not a terribly difficult one, to see how different newspapers around the world reported his death. I can only speak for the coverage here in the U.S. Yes, he was on good terms with the U.S. government down to the end, but still a lot of the coverage here was "end of an era" coverage, and there definitely was a sense of "last of the fascist trinity". The television show Saturday Night Live had a running joke for the better part of a year of including in the "top news" of their satiric "newscast" the item "General Franco still dead". -- Jmabel | Talk 19:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

19-N

I have added:

The historian Ricardo de la Cierva says that on the 19th around 6 pm he was told that Franco had already died.

As a reference, I watched De la Cierva himself say so on Informe Semanal. --Error 00:44, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Hitler on Franco

The following was removed:

(Hitler remarked that he'd rather "have two or three teeth pulled out" before trying to negotiate Franco's entry into the war again).

Is the quotation false? I have heard it elsewhere. --Error 00:47, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi, [Error] The sentence appears also on S.G Payne's article about Franco in the "Britannica" (15th edition). If not real, seems widespread.--Wllacer 17:47, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I got some more info. The primary source seems to be Count Ciano's memories--Wllacer 18:17, 25 November 2005 (UTC)