Talk:Francis Poulenc

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[edit] Discussion of Poulenc's first name

I'm not sure where this idea that Poulenc's first name was "Francois" comes from. It's possible he was born "Francois", I suppose, but I've never heard him called that, and he's universally known as "Francis". --Camembert

He was born Francois and in all FRENCH documents, letters, compositions, death certificates etc, he is French by birth and name. I resent people who don't bother to create a new article such as I did for Les Six and four of its members not alreadfy on Wikipedia but who then flip here and there, imposing their ideas on subjects they obviously know nothing about otherwise one would assume they would have written the article themselves....DW

Honestly, I don't know what you are talking about. This "idea" that Poulenc was called "Francis" is not mine - it's what he is always called. If you search Google for "Francis Poulenc" you get 30,200 hits, if you search for "Francois Poulenc" you get 164. The Grove, Oxford and Penguin dictionaries of music all list his as "Francis", and I should think every other dictionary is the same. If he was born "Francois", then fine, mention that in the article, but don't refer to him as that, because nobody knows him by that name. Please don't move the article back to "Francois" without a good reason for doing so. --Camembert

See also these French sites which use the spelling "Francis":


The Oxford Companion sayd "Francis" too. DW -- Camembert is currently the driving force behind articles on composers and music theory, and the music area of Wikipedia have drastically improved since his arrival, so look around before saying "flip here and there, imposing their ideas on subjects they obviously know nothing about". -- Tarquin 15:33 Nov 7, 2002 (UTC)

Might tend to disagree as to the driving force behind articles on composers. Some people just don't take credit. But, I congratulate you both on the wonderful, exhaustive, interesting, and informative research on Darius Milhaud. What a pile of lazy crap. But you have time to run around and impose ideas on others. The problem folks, is that on the INTERNET the VAST, VAST, VAST amount of articles has been created in English, particularly by Americans who never use anyones proper birth name but the comfortable English one. My God, that snake in Francois is too difficult. Same thing applies for ENGLISH publications. Perhaps we should stop imposing and insulting other nations by showing respect and learning to spell their names their way. However, I could use an expert (anyone who refers to Google counts as an authentic measurement of anything, borders on moronic) as I just posted Jane Bathori but (showing respect and aiding tourists and interested parties) am not absolutely 100% sure which of the four major Paris Cemeteries she is in....DW


Guess I'd better go fix the improper article spelling of Francis Mitterand.

please Mitterrand ! and Francois is an improper name. François is. And François and Francis are just as common right now.
DW, the above cited websites are both French - one of them is the site of IRCAM, which, as I'm sure you know, is one of the most important and respected musical institutions in Europe. They call him "Francis", and I also have several French editions of his music which have his name as "Francis" (none have "Francois"). So I'm not sure what there is to argue about to be honest. And, yes, the Milhaud article is not very good - please feel free to expand it yourself. --Camembert


DW, the debate on the anglicization of names is going on elsewhere. "Francis" is a name that is used in France. "Francis Cabrel", for example -- Tarquin

DW's point about "respect" does not fit the problem here. The issue is not about the anglicization of the name, laziness, and all that, but about what Poulenc's name really was, what he's known as, what is says on his music. Which is Francis. Unless you produce some evidence otherwise. Why did he call himself that? Dunno, maybe you should find out, it might be interesting.

The rant about other people's Milhaud contribution is clearly the product of someone who needs to work on their anger management, and get a grip on what this encyclopedia is and is not. If it's so awful, DW, why don't you improve it - not by fiddling with Poulenc's spelling but by writing something good about Milhaud? Anon.

Dear Anon: Who the hell do you think did the article on Les Six and then most of its members? Backtrack from whence Les Six came, to Montparnasse and check who did not only the page but 90% of the people, persons, and places named in it. Likwise, Montmartre, then the four major Paris Cemeteries and their permanent residents! Don't waste time arguing with me. I will win, but prefer to be left alone to make my contributions anon too.

I've removed the assertion that Poulenc was born "François " - today I looked at his entry in Grove, which is usually very good on this sort of thing, and it calls him "Francis Jean Marcel Poulenc" with no mention of "François". If DW or "somebody else" can give a specific source which shows he was born "François" then we can put it back in, but I've taken it out because I don't think it's true. --Camembert

My biographical dictionary agrees with you, if that's any help. Deb 17:34 27 May 2003 (UTC)
I've got here a totally French-language edition (Durand S.A.) of one of his pieces and the name throughout is Francis - as suggested many times above, if the French can't get it "right", who can? Francis it must be. 87.114.5.226 02:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

  • "He was also a friend to the singer Pierre Bernac for whom he wrote many songs."

I removed this sentence as it is preceded by, "Poulenc was homosexual." I have no idea at this point if the intent was friend or "friend". Hyacinth 00:51, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

      • "He was also a friend to the singer Pierre Bernac for whom he wrote many songs." It's not clear whether this should be friend or "friend" and the information should be put back in, with the information that it is not clear whether or not this relationship was sexual, as this is a subject of discussion. It would seem, from my own research, that it was something like a serious relationship, but clearly non-sexual, as both gentlemen said that things might have been simpler if they been attracted to each other, but that this was not the case. Musikfabrik 08:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article is horrible

This is nothing but gossip about Poulenc's sex life. The musical analysis is simply horrible. Poulenc deserves better than this. A complete rewrite is in order! Musikfabrik 22:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Works

One thing that's badly needed is a list of works with dates. The link to the category is no good--difficult to work with and doesn't allow for works that don't yet have an article associated. Dybryd 05:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

  • You're right about that. Look what we did with Germaine Tailleferre's article. I had all of the resources to do this for her. Even including the references to works in Grove's would be helpful. Right now, it's simply not usuable. Musikfabrik 11:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I've started the list; Feel free to add to it! Musikfabrik 12:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I've started to rework what's already here

I've taken all of the People Magazine stuff and put it in a section entitled "Poulenc's charactor". I'd love to just AX it all, but I realize that some people might enjoy this stuff.

I then tried to rework what was already there into something that had a bit more substance. In order to complete this, I'd like to begin by reworking the article on Les Six which is almost as horrible as this article is and then bring some of the material which I'm going to add there over here too.

However, please don't hestitate to pitch in and clean this mess up! thanks in advance. Musikfabrik 12:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Freddy WHO?

Somebody added the first name "Freddy" in reference to the mother of Poulenc's supposed daughter, but no last name and no source; "Freddy" is obviously a nickname. Does anyone have the complete name and a source? Right now, this article is starting to read like the "National Enquirer"....Musikfabrik 12:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Benjamin Ivry's book (see References) names her simply as 'Frederique' in both the main text and the index. violaperson 10:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IPA Pronunciation

The pronunciation of "Poulenc" is currently given as pulɛ̃k. If my understanding of IPA is correct, this would make the second syllable rhyme with "dreck". The prounciation I'm familiar with (and which also conforms better to my understanding of the French language) is more like "lank" with the "n" nasalized (I'm not sure how to do this in IPA, but I would guess something like lãk). Does anyone have a reference for the prounuciation? Grover cleveland 07:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The present symbol is correct. The tilde over the epsilon makes it a nasal vowel. Dybryd 08:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Er ... as it presently (2 June 07) stands, the article has pulenk as the supposed phonetic transcription, which is wrong in several ways. A rendering /pulɛ̃k/ as above, is correct in the sense that it's in keeping with standard practice for French phonetic transcription. The low front unrounded nasalized vowel of French (as in words like pain, foin, mince, fin etc.) in terms of cavity features is in fact phonetically closer to [æ] than [ɛ] (as in Grover cleveland's suggested comparison with English lank, above), but the French phonetic transcription practice is to use [ɛ]. Note, too, that as is often the case with names, the relationship between spelling and pronunciation is not in accord with the norm (which would imply /pulãk/). Alsihler 15:58, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Personal life contradiction

In the "Personal Life" section, reference is made to Poulenc's sensitivity to friends' untimely deaths, incuding "the death of painter Christian Bérard, who was decapitated in a car accident in the early 30's". However, the Christian Berard page lists his death "in 1949, on the stage of the Théâtre de Marigny". Which story is true? I would change the Poulenc bit, but this inconsistency leads me to doubt the veracity of the entire anecdote. Anyone got any insight? Spirit.question 20:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Choral works

Poulenc is an important 20th century composer of choral music. The Choir article even mentions several Poulenc works. It is remarkable that this isn't mentioned at all here. --UrbanGrill 20:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC) Edit: oh yes, Figure Humaine is mentioned among other works. But still. --UrbanGrill 20:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sound files of music by Poulenc cannot be public domain

Poulenc died in 1963. According to current copyright law, all works which were published after 1923 are protected for at least 85 years. No works by Poulenc are currently in the public domain and therefore cannot be used in this project. Please do not readd these files to this article Gretab 23:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opus numbers

What is the authority for the opus numbers assigned to the chamber music (but not the other categories) listed under 'Works'? As far as I am aware, neither Poulenc nor his publisher ever used them. violaperson 10:18, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dada

"He embraced the Dada movement's techniques, creating melodies that would have been appropriate for Parisian music halls."

Something seems amiss with this Dada comment. My understanding of the Dada mvmt would have me believe that embracing the movement's "techniques" would in fact have the opposite effect of "creating melodies that would have been appropriate for Parisian music halls," as the Dada mvmt bore inappropriateness as a central tenet.

I've made a correction for the sake of what i'd claim is consistency, that his embrace of Dada techniques challenged public reception. If the opposite is in fact true, that he was publicly lauded, then perhaps he was NOT influenced by dada to begin with. Perhaps someone more informed with Poulenc's influences and reception could do the backgrounding on this small matter.

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 03:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)