Talk:Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor

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Comments:

Isn't Emperor Franz a saint in the Catholic Church now? user:J.J.

I'm going to have to go with "no" on that one. john k 22:32, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Maria Beatrice d'Este, Princess of Modena": She was born a Princess of Savoia. No such title "Prince of Modena" ever existed: "On July 14, 1814, Mary Beatrice's husband, Francis, became Duke Francis IV of Modena, Reggio, and Mirandola; he was the grandson of the last Este duke of Modena Ercole III. From this time forward, Mary Beatrice used the title "Duchess of Modena". [1]. --Wetman 11:24, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

No, JJ, I think you're thinking of Emperor Charles I of Austria, and that wasn't saint, it was blessed. -Alex 12.220.157.93 14:44, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

A couple of times on this page it says that Franz became Emperor of Austria in 1806 after abdicating as Holy Roman Emperor. In the article Holy Roman Empire it says he became Emperor of Austria in 1804 - which is what I have seen elsewhere. KM.

[edit] move to new name

Shouldn't this article be at Franz I of Austria, considering he was the most part of his life emperor of Austria and died as such, and not as Holy Roman Emperor? Gryffindor 09:03, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

If it were moved, it should be to Francis I of Austria. However, I think his status as last Holy Roman Emperor is important enough to have it as the title of the page. Charles 14:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
And his status as emperor of Austria was less important? Gryffindor 15:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I cannot be the judge of that. What I do recognise is that there is importance in the status of Holy Roman Empire. Some, but not necessarily me, may argue that the status of Holy Roman Emperor is much more important than that of Emperor of Austria. No one can really define the "Empire of Austria" anyway. Charles 00:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Given that the Empire of Austria amounted, in practice, to the residue of lands left to Franz I after the Holy Roman Empire went to pieces, I think it's reasonable to consider it more important, yes. Choess 01:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
This seems an appropriate change. Francis was HRE for 12 years, and Emperor of Austria for 31. That the precise territories meant by "Emperor of Austria" is unclear seems beside the point. (As I understand it, anyway, "Emperor of Austria" was not meant to be a territorial title, but a dynastic one - "Emperor of [the House of] Austria". That is to say, he was the Emperor who belonged to the House of Austria, and ruled over the lands belonging to the House of Austria. "Emperor of Austria" did not supercede any of Francis's lesser titles - he was still, notably, "Archduke of Austria" in context of his rule over Upper and Lower Austria proper. john k 01:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
It is NOT up to us as encyclopedia editors to decide which is more important (reigning as Holy Roman Emperor or Emperor of Austria). All we have to do is determine what has been done in the scholarly literature; that is what we summarize here. Unfortunately in this case, it is clear as mud. The Library of Congress uses the subject heading "Francis I, Emperor of Austria". However, both the Chambers and the Websters biographical dictionaries list him as "Francis II". Noel S McFerran 02:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest that "last title held" is generally the rule used. We have Charles III of Spain, not Charles VII of Naples, for instance. john k 10:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with john k. And I think in terms of "realpolitik" the Empire of Austria was definetly more important during the lifetime of Emperor Franz, than the completely derelict, hollow and meaningless late Holy Roman Empire. Neither holy, nor roman, nor an empire.... Gryffindor 19:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I will try this again: it's not for any of us to decide which is more important. We go by what has already been written. That is how an encyclopedia works. It gathers already published scholarship. The thing to determine is how Franz is called most frequently in written works in English. Noel S McFerran 22:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Applying "last title held" would implicitly create an ersatz rule not vetted on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). The rule that's already there is "Use the most senior title received by a royal or noble personage." One may be "senior" in terms of time, but I think here the term means "highest" title held (which is distinct from the matter-of-opinion notion of "most important"). But not all emperors are created equal: the Emperors of India and Brazil were not, thereby, of higher precedence than Continental kings. The "German Emperor" was, legally, the "first among equals" with respect to other German sovereigns, such as the Kings of Bavaria and Saxony. But the rulers of modern Russia, the Byzantine Empire and the Holy Roman Empire were emperors in the old sense of ruling over kings (e.g. the Kingdom of Georgia (Kartl-Kakheti) was a protectorate under the Russian empire). The Holy Roman Empire encompassed the Kingdom of Bohemia, and its Emperors were the suzerains of the Kings of Bohemia. The Emperor of Austria did not reign, in that capacity, over the Kingdom of Bohemia. Ergo "Holy Roman Emperor" is the more "senior" title. Aside from that, my sense is that Francis was and is known primarily as the last of the Holy Roman Emperors, as the man who relinquished that title lest Napoleon I take it from him, and as the man who presided over the decline of the Habsburg empire as a Great Power in Europe, of which the change from "Holy Roman Emperor" to "Emperor of Austria" was a manifestation. If no one can figure out an agreed-upon way of ascertaining which title is "most common in English" per Noel S McFerran's suggestion, then I think he should stay at Holy Roman Emperor. Lethiere 23:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
The big issue here may actually be the one of ordinal. In contrast to my earlier positions, I suspect that he may be better known as "Francis II," because there was no other Francis II, and he needs to be distinguished from his grandfather. In that manner, it might make most sense to leave him where he is. john k 00:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the title should be Franz I, Emperor of Austria or at least have a reference to this title in the title. Technically, he was not Holy Roman Emperor. He was Holy Roman Emperor-Elect. To be a fully fleged emperor and gain all of the benefits, you needed a papal coronation. Emperor of Austria is a full emperor title that had not coronation requirements. Thus, Emperor of Austria is a higher title than Holy Roman Emperor-Elect. Emperor001 01:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The title Holy Roman Emperor is certainly what was used though. It can be said that there was not even an Empire of Austria over which he was emperor. My opinion is that Holy Roman Emperor is a higher title than Emperor of (the House of) Austria. Either way, there was a Holy Roman Empire and someone at any given time fancied themselves to be the emperor. There hardly was an Empire of Austria. Charles 03:38, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early life

I've written a section of Francis's childhood and youth prior to becoming Emperor, as this was lacking in the article beforehand. Thoughts? Lec CRP1 17:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Doppelkaiser (Double emperor)

I dont know why someone put a citation needed to the word Doppelkaiser (Double emperor). In the germanspeaking Wikipedia there is no controversy about this term, as it is the appropiate description in German for someone who was twice times an emperor at the same time. During my history lessons in school (in Austria) Franz II./I. was allready named like this, and even today he is called so, see below some weblinks (unfortunately in German):

  • 1
  • 2 (German Monarchists, even when I dont support their ideology, they are a serious source for THIS question)
  • 3

-- Rfortner 17:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)